Members Vito Corleone Posted December 16, 2014 Members Share Posted December 16, 2014 Not audio related but.... ...I recently bought a portable room heater with a short power cable. The instructions specifically state NOT to use an extension cord. I get that it would be a bad idea to use a small, typical home cable or power strip, but would it be safe to use an extension cord that was built to carry the load of the heater? Or should I really not use one at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted December 16, 2014 CMS Author Share Posted December 16, 2014 I'm never too enthusiastic about recommending ignoring safety warnings here on the interwebs. Never know who'll misinterpret something and burn the house down. Having said that, a cable rated for the maximum circuit capacity should be okay. Among the problems are heat rating of the cable jacket in case it winds up exposed to some part of the heat output. And having said that, if the room doesn't meet electric code having a receptacle every 12 feet around the room, it might not be a bad project to at least get one installed where you need the heater. Or install a wall baseboard heater, as space heaters are inherently dangerous even without extension cords... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 16, 2014 Author Members Share Posted December 16, 2014 It's a fairly new house (built in 2005) with power outlets all over the place. EXCEPT in the master bathroom where it only has two outlets up near the sinks. For some reason, the master suite in this house doesn't warm up as well as the rest of the house, and the bathroom gets particularly cold. After having a few different people out to assess the situation and give us estimates on various ways to remedy it, we decided the most simple and inexpensive option would just be to use a space heater. So we buy one that works fairly well but it's only got a 6' cable on it. Which is about 2' too short for me to connect it to the closest outlet in the bedroom and run it around the corner so it can sit inside the bathroom. Wife doesn't want a cable draping down from the sinks. I don't either. I also don't want the heater sitting that close to the water sources. I suppose the next best option might be to return this heater and look for one with a longer cable. But having a receptacle installed right where I want one would be easy enough as well. A couple of baseboard heaters would be a good option as well. DOES bug me that in a house with what seems like 857 power receptacles installed at various locations over 3 stories, that it doesn't have one in the one place where I actually want one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted December 16, 2014 Members Share Posted December 16, 2014 It's not safe to run un-GFCI'd power into a bathroom ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted December 16, 2014 Members Share Posted December 16, 2014 I'll second that! If you're going to do the extension cord thing, change the outlet you're plugging use to a GFCI outlet. They cost like twenty bucks. How much too cold is your bathroom? Maybe you could get a 150W lightbulb in there and leave it on all the time. Wes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 16, 2014 Author Members Share Posted December 16, 2014 I'll second that! If you're going to do the extension cord thing, change the outlet you're plugging use to a GFCI outlet. They cost like twenty bucks. How much too cold is your bathroom? Maybe you could get a 150W lightbulb in there and leave it on all the time. Wes It's a big bathroom and opens up to the big bedroom which is also cold. No way a single lightbulb would make a bit of difference at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted December 16, 2014 Members Share Posted December 16, 2014 The reason for the instructions not allowing extension cords is almost certainly part of the UL listing process for residential space heaters. Because the heaters typically deaw (1800 x 0.8) watts, they require an extesnion cord AND connectors that are rated for this on a continuous basis. Commercial style extension cords of an appropriate gauge with NEMA connectors would fit within the intent of the code. Most residential and light duty commercial extension cords do not fit this criteria. If it were me, and knowing what I know, I would use the appropriate grade commercial duty extension cords with commercial grade connectors and not worry about it. Commercial grade for this application would be SJ type cable, and Hubbel (or equiv.) connectors, wire gauge sized for the OVERCURRENT PROTECTION on the circuit (typically 12 gauge) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted December 17, 2014 CMS Author Share Posted December 17, 2014 You've got me curious about the root cause of the problem. Can you describe the central heating system, location of the bathroom (outside walls, above a garage, etc) and its actual size? What's above it, and can the insulation be inspected? Has anyone checked the room with a simple IR thermal scan to visualize where the heat loss occurs? Running a cord through a doorway, especially one likely to be closed, is never a good idea, though I understand the desire to simply make this problem go away as easily as possible. The number and placement of the receps in the bath sounds like it meets code. You generally don't need or want more receps in a bathroom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted December 17, 2014 Members Share Posted December 17, 2014 I ran a cord through a doorway at work (much to the chagrin of the building's apparently toothless safety/insurance guy) for many years. Normally I wouldn't do that, but building management did not want to run more power to that wall for some reason, and I got in a lot of trouble the last time I called in my own electricians to do the job right. Anyhow, what I did was fix the cord in place with PVC conduit brackets, so that it stayed right on the floor near the hinges. Then I cut the bottom corner of the door out. About a 1/2" triangle. You never notice that it's gone, but it insured that the door did not interfere with the cord, ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted December 17, 2014 CMS Author Share Posted December 17, 2014 You gotta wonder why a company bothers to employ a safety guy then allows such an obvious code and safety violation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 17, 2014 Author Members Share Posted December 17, 2014 You've got me curious about the root cause of the problem. Can you describe the central heating system, location of the bathroom (outside walls, above a garage, etc) and its actual size? What's above it, and can the insulation be inspected? Has anyone checked the room with a simple IR thermal scan to visualize where the heat loss occurs? Running a cord through a doorway, especially one likely to be closed, is never a good idea, though I understand the desire to simply make this problem go away as easily as possible. The number and placement of the receps in the bath sounds like it meets code. You generally don't need or want more receps in a bathroom. The master suite is about 600 sf. About 1/3 of which is bathroom and closet. There's a wall and a 4' doorway opening separating the bedroom from the bath and closet section. There's no door between the two sections--it just opens to the bath. I'd just be running the cord around a corner. There's also a stairway to a 200 sf loft-type area above the bedroom, again, with no door to shut off that area. The suite sits above the garage. There are heating vents in the ceilings in the bedroom, bath, closet and loft. The heating system is sitting in the crawlspace above the living room which is probably 25 ft behind the first vent. The ductwork has to go around some corners and such to reach all the vents. (The lower floor of the house is on a separate HVAC system.) I can't give you the specifics of the heating system without crawling up into the attic and looking at the unit. But the guys I've had look at it have all said it should be sufficient for the size of the house. I've had 3 different people out to look at the problem. I don't know if anyone scanned for heat loss, specifically, but one guy did an IR scan to make sure there was actually insulation in the walls. This was one of those houses builders were tossing up like crazy towards the end of the housing boom out here. I've seen all sorts of mistakes made during construction. I asked one of my neighbors with a house with identical floor plan if his suite was cold in the winter and he said he was fine. There's also, interestingly, no issue with it being cool enough in the summer. Although we don't run the AC a lot in the summer, but we've never thought the room was hotter than the rest of the house. Anyway, the insulation is fine. One guy said he thought the duct tubing should be bigger. There was talk of "rebalancing" the system so more heat flows to that room, although that might lead with it being too cold in the summer. There were various options of manual and electric flow valves that could be installed so the flow could be controlled during different times of the year if need be. All those sorts of options sound great, but all were running in the $2-4,000 range. At which point everyone said, "well, why don't you just put a separate heater in this room?" One of the problems I have with all the various expensive options discussed is there is no way to be sure any of them would actually work until they were done. I might consider spending thousands to fix the problem if I knew for sure it would fix the problem. But nobody offers that sort of guarantee. After what people said here yesterday, I'm back to thinking that a couple of electric baseboard heaters might be the best solution. AGAIN--if they put out enough heat to solve the problem. With the bathroom area, the problem is that there is really only one small section of wall---about 3 ft across--were putting such a heater would be feasible. (obviously we don't want anything close to any water sources.) It's the same wall I want to run the space heater to just around the corner 8ft from the nearest outlet. I don't know if a 3ft baseboard heater would be enough to heat the bath area, but at least it would only cost me a couple of hundred dollars to find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Telecruiser Posted December 17, 2014 Members Share Posted December 17, 2014 What Andy said. Understand that the heater is being plugged into a 200+ "extension cord" already; that is the wiring from the outlet to the transformer on the pole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted December 17, 2014 Members Share Posted December 17, 2014 Have you thought about an in-wall heater instead of a baseboard heater? http://cadetheat.com/blog/can-install-cadet-electric-baseboard-bathroom/ The thing I can't figure out, though, is...I thought you lived someplace where they didn't have winter?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted December 17, 2014 CMS Author Share Posted December 17, 2014 A balance should be done on the system, as it almost certainly was never done by the builder. Even in the remote chance that the system doesn't maintain correct balance in AC mode, it would be quite simple to manually change it seasonally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted December 17, 2014 CMS Author Share Posted December 17, 2014 If you go the route of installing a heater, a fan-forced in-wall unit can be sized to easily handle the room, and most of them are quite small. I've got one in my cabin that's 4000 watts and is 10w x 12h. It can be configured for several outputs. Another option would be a kickspace heater if you've got any cabinets that don't have plumbing directly above them, such as a drawer unit between two sink vanities. I doubt a 3-foot baseboard will do the job, as it would be at most a 750 watt unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 17, 2014 Author Members Share Posted December 17, 2014 Have you thought about an in-wall heater instead of a baseboard heater? http://cadetheat.com/blog/can-install-cadet-electric-baseboard-bathroom/ The thing I can't figure out, though, is...I thought you lived someplace where they didn't have winter?? Oh no! I live at 6,000 ft! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 17, 2014 Author Members Share Posted December 17, 2014 If you go the route of installing a heater, a fan-forced in-wall unit can be sized to easily handle the room, and most of them are quite small. I've got one in my cabin that's 4000 watts and is 10w x 12h. It can be configured for several outputs. Another option would be a kickspace heater if you've got any cabinets that don't have plumbing directly above them, such as a drawer unit between two sink vanities. I doubt a 3-foot baseboard will do the job, as it would be at most a 750 watt unit. Yeah, I'm worried the baseboard wouldn't be enough. Although the plan would be to install two. The 3ft for the bathroom area and a larger (probably 4 ft) one in the bedroom area. The 80 sf or so closet area can be shut off as there is a door to the closet. So the 3ft baseboard would mostly be just heating the 120 sf bath area, although the doorway would still be open to the larger bedroom area. Probably also makes a difference that the whole area has 10' ceilings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted December 17, 2014 CMS Author Share Posted December 17, 2014 Yep, ceiling height definitely matters. Ten-foot ceilings add 25% to the room volume over 8 foot, as well as that much greater wall surface for heat loss. 1750 watts (a 4ft and a 3ft) still isn't much heat in a 600 sq ft area. Go with a wall unit. They're very effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pro Sound Guy Posted December 18, 2014 Members Share Posted December 18, 2014 Like Aged said.Get Hubble ends and use 12gauge cable.Run it on an isolated ciruit.Good to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted December 18, 2014 CMS Author Share Posted December 18, 2014 It just sounds like guido's got too nice of a house to be running extension cords and using space heaters. I had a shack like that once with an enormous master suite...it deserves the full treatment!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 18, 2014 Author Members Share Posted December 18, 2014 I'm looking into wall heaters now. That's seeming like the best idea. Thanks everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted December 18, 2014 Members Share Posted December 18, 2014 Note that INSTALLED resistance heating may not conform with CA Title 24 (energy efficiency regs.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 18, 2014 Author Members Share Posted December 18, 2014 Note that INSTALLED resistance heating may not conform with CA Title 24 (energy efficiency regs.) Well, it's always something, isn't it? I'll have to look into that. Maybe I'll get lucky and Nevada doesn't have the same reg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted December 18, 2014 Members Share Posted December 18, 2014 Probably not, since it's a set of CA regs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 18, 2014 Author Members Share Posted December 18, 2014 Probably not' date=' since it's a set of CA regs. [/quote'] Yeah, Nevada adopts a lot of similar building codes as CA though. Maybe not an energy effceiency code however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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