Members kurdy Posted April 20, 2007 Members Share Posted April 20, 2007 I came across this very interesting quote from Jack White in Performing Songwriter magazine: "I've seen way too many friends ripped off by indies, and I've experienced it myself. They're romanticized as being anti-establishment and for the little guy. But they're ripping off people way more than majors. People are afraid to say that." Unfortunately, the quote was just a snippet from a previous interview. Wish I could've read the whole thing. Any thoughts on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members alphajerk Posted April 20, 2007 Members Share Posted April 20, 2007 depends on which indie.... wonder if dischord rips off their bands? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted April 20, 2007 Members Share Posted April 20, 2007 Oh, HELL, yeah. Having been involved with the punk scene in earlier years I would have to say that SOME of the indies were skankier still that the majors... In LA one doesn't need to search one's memory hard to find several BIG offenders in the little label arena, at least one of them tightly associated with a once-respected punk band. People in LA and the South Bay know who I mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted April 20, 2007 Moderators Share Posted April 20, 2007 Well yeah... here you have a guy that's scraping by living on Top Ramen. He signs some other guys who prefer mac and cheese to his "label". There is no money. Some units move, some years go by, maybe a few more units move. A check arrives that really should be split in some predetermined manner but the Top Ramen guy needs tires... That's pretty much it in varying degrees. P.S. The Top Ramen guy paid the $500 for the recording to begin with so he feels his tires purchase is justified. Screw that contract, my tires are bald. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted April 20, 2007 Members Share Posted April 20, 2007 Yuh... the guy I'm thinking of now buys and sells buildings... He is not well-loved among indie musicians around these parts -- of course, part of that was that he used to hype himself as a musician-label-owner who'd never take advantage of the kids. Ha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted April 20, 2007 Moderators Share Posted April 20, 2007 Yuh... the guy I'm thinking of now buys and sells buildings... He is not well-loved among indie musicians around these parts -- of course, part of that was that he used to hype himself as a musician-label-owner who'd never take advantage of the kids. Ha. Oh. Yeah, that's a different scenario all together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted April 20, 2007 Members Share Posted April 20, 2007 Oh. Yeah, that's a different scenario all together. Yeah... I used to buy into the hype on this guy... I knew one of his right hand people. But then I mentioned him one time as an example of a guy who wouldn't rip off the kids... and there were some hard working punk vets sitting there who just laughed outright. After I continued asking around I realized this guy and his label were pretty much like the rest -- just with better PR and better press in the 'zines he used to advertise in VERY heavily. In fact, I just read the Wikipedia write up on the label and it turns out that it wasn't just the local yokels who had problems with this label. Looks like he ended up being sued by a lot of the major punk and post-punk artists he went on to sign after making his mark in the South Bay. I wasn't aware of just HOW MUCH trouble he'd got into with his artists. Yow. A lot of them had to sue to get their masters back... and looks like a lot of them prevailed. I'm wondering if his business empire is anything close to what it once was... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The*Ataris Posted April 20, 2007 Members Share Posted April 20, 2007 One big indie that's gotten a lot of bad press recently, Victory Records, hasn't been paying it's bands. They're supposedly fabricating sales figures to keep from compensating everyone appropriately. One band has moved over 200,000 copies and hasn't seen a dime supposedly... Lot's of bands out there unwittingly signing over their publishing too...whoops! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members spokenward Posted April 20, 2007 Members Share Posted April 20, 2007 Indie labels are also traditionally the last to get paid by retail. The regular flow of new releases from the majors tends to enforce the likelihood of them getting paid first. You need the new stuff so you pay them. The independent distributors are another very separate layer in the system. They juggle dozens of independent labels that run hot and cold and colder. These guys sometimes have to buy tires too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted April 20, 2007 Members Share Posted April 20, 2007 I came across this very interesting quote from Jack White in Performing Songwriter magazine:"I've seen way too many friends ripped off by indies, and I've experienced it myself. They're romanticized as being anti-establishment and for the little guy. But they're ripping off people way more than majors. People are afraid to say that."Unfortunately, the quote was just a snippet from a previous interview. Wish I could've read the whole thing.Any thoughts on this? I'd say absolutely. I got ripped off badly by Hyperium Records in Germany, who blatantly disregarded the contract, etc., and haven't gotten paid by several others. I've heard a lot of other people getting ripped off as well. For the last label I signed with, I negotiated for the entire amount up front (I'm not just talking about the advance, I'm literally talking about the entire amount) and wouldn't back down because I was so sick and tired of getting ripped off. Believe it or not, I actually got it, but admittedly, that's not a common thing to get. As Spokenward pointed out, they're the last to get paid by the distributors (who in turn rip them off). But this doesn't excuse the blatant disregard that a lot of independent artists have for their artists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted April 20, 2007 Members Share Posted April 20, 2007 When I was freelancing as an engineer/producer, I never got stiffed by a musician. Labels were an entirely different story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members spokenward Posted April 21, 2007 Members Share Posted April 21, 2007 excerpted But this doesn't excuse the blatant disregard that a lot of independent artists have for their artists. Absolutely! I agree with Lee that the abuse often starts as a cash flow thing and then gets institutionalized with cascading side effects of slow and no-pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted April 21, 2007 Members Share Posted April 21, 2007 OOOOOOOOPS! I meant to say, "But this doesn't excuse the blatant disregard that a lot of independent LABELS have for their artists." But you knew that, didn't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members philbo Posted April 21, 2007 Members Share Posted April 21, 2007 Anything you do in music - - playing, recording, anywhere, ever, for anybody - - what you walk out with in your pocket THAT DAY is the only compensation you can ever realistically expect to see. Anything above that is gravy, but you shouldn't ever count on paying bills with gravy. For most people, if you can cover your gas to & from, you're doing really really well. Ken has the right approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted April 21, 2007 Members Share Posted April 21, 2007 Negotiating for the whole amount may work if it's a low run (meaning under 10,000 copies maybe?), but I don't know about larger amounts. I just figured at that point that if I didn't do it, the same crap would happen again, and I'd either not get paid, get paid only the advance, get paid for a small fraction late...so I simply negotiated the whole amount. I explained why I felt this was necessary. I figured the label would think I was nuts, but to my surprise, he paid the whole thing. I've made a helluva lot more recording people than putting out CDs!!! My band has done okay with making money from our CDs, but that's because we do everything ourselves and have lucked out with several TV shows and placements on MTV, and not so much from actual sales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ZigZagWanderer Posted April 23, 2007 Members Share Posted April 23, 2007 I think Jack White was referring to "Kill Rock Stars", which was the first label the Stripes were on. Or at least I think so--I remember reading about the KRS guy when I was out in LA. Personally, I think the business is what corrupts people. I don't think any label, producer, musician, booking agent, whatever starts out to be a sleazebag ripoff artist. I think the business makes them that way. The major labels and the rest of the big time music business have evolved to the point they are at now because that's what they have needed to do to survive. Show business is brutal at every level. I think you would have to be pretty ruthless just to survive, let alone prosper. I don't know the specifics, but my guess is that the indie labels in question had about the same success ratio as a major label--meaning 19 out of 20 bands were complete failures and one of the twenty was a hit. Everyone wants a piece of that hit, because that's all there is. And it may not even be limited to band vs. label over who is responsible for bringing in the cash...it's also probably band member vs. band member over who wrote what. In the end, everyone thinks they have been screwed by everyone else. I don't doubt any of the horror stories about musicians being screwed by labels, but it works the other way, too. Musicians won't hesitate to stab someone in the back, either, be it the label, the producer, manager or a band member. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted April 23, 2007 Moderators Share Posted April 23, 2007 I don't doubt any of the horror stories about musicians being screwed by labels, but it works the other way, too. Musicians won't hesitate to stab someone in the back, either, be it the label, the producer, manager or a band member. That is a very true, and sad statement. When you grow up with a dream. "To Make It!" Then there you are and you've "make it". Sort of. And your tires are bald too. And that {censored}ty bass player didn't actually write anything but he gets rights? And does a bridge equal a cowrite... "No way dude. Burn in hell asshole, I don't care if we were best freinds 2 years ago!" It's pretty ugly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members the-good-way Posted April 23, 2007 Members Share Posted April 23, 2007 glittering prizes and endless compromises shatter the illusion of integrity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Magpel Posted April 23, 2007 Members Share Posted April 23, 2007 Oh, HELL, yeah. at least one of them tightly associated with a once-respected punk band. People in LA and the South Bay know who I mean. Greg Ginn?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Billster Posted April 23, 2007 Members Share Posted April 23, 2007 My band has done okay with making money from our CDs, but that's because we do everything ourselves and have lucked out with several TV shows and placements on MTV, and not so much from actual sales. The future of music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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