v-Drums...thinking of making the switch...

I've been thinking about this for years...playing in coverbands, playing in venues that have absolutely no concern for acoustics (cement floors, metal roof, brick walls, and they bitch about noise levels all night... - you can hear a conversation at the OTHER END of the building, I could hear my snare bouncing off the walls when tapped with my fingers (really?)....)

Anyhow, I'm thinking just for the sake of volume control, a V-Drum kit would be ideal.

Secondly, the ease of mic'ing the kit - seems like it'd be ultra easy - just plug the {censored} L/R out and good to go. I won't need 6 channels on a sound board, I won't need to run those 6 mic cables, won't need to set any EQ, and overall I figure the ease of setup/teardown would be immense.

So, how many of you gig with v-drums?

The only kit I'm considering is the Roland TD-30KV and adding 2 more cymbals, and perhaps another item to mroe or less serve as a cowbell

Yes, perfect solution for low volume gigs. Once you start getting into the medium and high volume gigs, it will probably be more trouble than it's worth. Triggering becomes problematic when you've got a huge bass rig and a loud wedge monitor right next to you. Sometimes, the "re-trigger cancel and crosstalk cancel" part of the software reads the vibrations from the bass rig and monitor as crosstalk, and shuts everything off for a second. I learned this the hard way when I used to gig exclusively with my Roland v-drum kit. There are other considerations, but that was the main one that made me switch back to acoustic drums.

On the other hand, you're going for a top-of-the-line kit, so maybe you'd be spared this issue. And like I said, for low volume gigs, it's not an issue at all.

Food for thought.

Carm just went through this. Talk to him.

Oh there's a LOT to think about there! Lots of issues to deal with all the way around, not to even mention that after talking to a pluthera of electronics users, you may have to consider having a spare module in your arsenal. remember, when you're playing out live and you break a head on a traditional kit, you put a new one on...when you break a module, they all go out and all you'll have left are some really nifty practice pads to play on! Jenks, if you want the scoop that made me make my informed decision, pm me because there are a lot of other issues to consider. In the studio...no brainer, you got sounds up the ying yang...gigging IMO, not ready for prime time yet. I will tell you, I got most of my info from talking to a ton of guys on the vrdum forum. Also check out Vexpressions...really good module additional settings!...

How often does one break a module? (referring to the main box, right?) As for breaking a head, I plan on having a one of each of the sizes with me.

Medium and High Volume gigs, I have kits and so on for that. The majority of venues around here are fairly small, some you can mic everything up, and blow it out with the PA, others you might mic the bass drum, others, stick PA for vocals only...

The twist on that is that I'd need to carry my own amp/speaker for it, for those smallest of venues, and I'd always need a monitor of some sort, and my drums would need to be in the monitors, and that low end thump might not be all that thumpy on stage.

I'm a basher of a player, play with a lot of energy that just DRIVES the songs, making a big pocket and so on. One worry I have is that I'd lose that with v-drums. I'd end up going towards more of a finesse player - not that it would be a bad thing, just...essentially taking away one of my strongest attributes...power-playing big drums having the {censored} beat out of them...that does sound good! Just with my current kit, it's impossible to get quiet enough to make some bar managers happy...

If you're a heavy hitter, even more so you may run into triggering problems. You know how when you just need that loud "CRACK" from the snare as an accent, and you get NOTHING when you hit it? Very frustrating. But, like I said before, you're looking at a top-of-the-line Roland kit (mine was a medium level kit, and from many years ago), so you may not even experience any issues.

The sound gear issue is something else entirely. I needed my kit to be at least 2/3rds as loud as an acoustic kit, so I had to haul two Mackie SRM450's and a Yorkville subwoofer, plus a little powered monitor so I could hear myself. Not to mention the extension cords, multi-outlet strips, speaker stands, etc., that I never have to carry with an acoustic kit. Of course, if it was a large venue gig, I wouldn't need any of that, but then the stage volume would wreak havoc with my kit.

I dunno. It might just be easier to work on your 'finesse' playing on your acoustic kit, and just play softer at these venues. Yeah, the room may make the drums sound like crap, but what the hell..... it's ART!

edit: and those voltage sags when too much equipment is running off of one circiut.... made my module do some strange things! In my opinion, too much small {censored} to go wrong when you use v-drums.

No I was trying to make a comparison with the fact that when you have a traditional kit and something breaks, you still have something to kinda limp along with. When a module breaks or even can't be powered up for one reason or another, you're kinda dead in the water. It's the big advantage of acoustic over electronic.

Also, you'll end up changing your playing style a bit due to sensitivity issues with triggering. I played on 3 modules and doing any type of ghostnote applications was very lack luster. Also all the electronics guys said I would want to use my own acoustic cymbals. The sounds are there in electronics but the nuances aren't up to par. If I have to do all that plus make a good sound on stage that the other guys in the band would be well satisfied with, hell, I might just as well use my own kit.

I dunno, when you snap a snare head on either kit I imagine that life sucks for that song. There's nothing (that I know of) that would prevent one from grabbing one of the other VDrums and at least being able to assign the/a snare sound(s) to it, then making it through that set, then changing out the meshhead.

That said, I'm pretty good about not snapping heads, at least, I've not actually BROKEN a 2-ply head...I just wear them down and replace as needed. With the mesh design, I imagine it'd be less often, that, and I'd keep at least 1 mesh head of each size with me so that I could swap them out.

As previous post mentioned, taking additional PA is a factor.

That said, we're a three piece, and we always run monitors. Running an extension cord and a pair of 1/4" cables is better than running mics and cables, IMO.

I know it sounds like I'm supporting the idea of getting it more than not, but, in reality, I am 50/50 on it...I'm just giving my counter-thoughts.

I've also figure that I'll want 2 additional cymbals, and that I'll may look at the Roland 8-pad deally - I'd be able to get that e-drum sound (Pour some sugar) and reverse cymbal effects (Stranglehold) assigned to that, plus a cowbell. I kind of need that on American Band - lol...

( + ) Sampled drums can bring the drum parts to life.

( - ) If you're using samples just so you can bang away, you'll prolly just bang away.

My take......Ive played a v-drum kit in church for almost the last ten years. Best kits as far as e-kits go..JMO. They are not designed for heavy hitting. Crosstalk is a problem if things get to bouncing too much. Another dummer in our church snapped the BD beater in two a couple of weeks ago. Never thought that would ever happen. The sounds are the best on the market..again, JMO. Every gigging drummer I know that uses one, carries a spare module....even if it is a cheap, simple $50 piece. If venues are anything like ours....power issues is a definite concern. x-tra parts would be a necessity, compared to the few you would have with an acoustic kit.

As far as cables go.....theres more to deal with on the v-drum kit, depending on how you break it down for transport. I use a self made loom for my drum mics on my acoustic kit. Each are labeled and the correct length for each mic placement....easy peasy.

Ive also had to replace one of the v-drum pads because it broke where it connects...(its just plastic(not sure if someone tried to lean on it or it just brike from stick contact.

OK, went to GC yesterday, they had a TD30 (the $5K version) set up.

Played on it about an hour. The first 20 minutes were me just {censored}ing around, and I was surprised in a good way. Then I started thinking about our sets, and went to play some of the songs.

It failed. Miserably. Everything sounded so flat and even...even with the "improved" dynamics, it's not enough. The intro to Rock and Roll was laughably lifeless, and going from intro to the main parts, again just lifeless. Sounded like a toy...

The marching pattern on "All Right Now" - lifeless. Over-exaggerating the approach by playing very lightly, and using rimshots for the accents, it'd be passible.

The cymbal chokes in "Round and Round" - horrible, and difficult to maintain consistency.

So, the end result...$7500...$8500 for what I'd need to mimic what I have currently...LOWL!!!! Not happening.

Also the false-positives were present too - intro to LaGrange...flam-click-cli--click-cli-RIMSHOT...WTF?!!!

Did you spend any time actually adjusting the sensitivities, tracking, cross-talk thresholds, etc.?

In other words, making relevant tweaks?

My experience has been that the adjustability factor inherent in that level of kit is what makes a difference between a $2-3k kit and one that's 2-3x as expensive.

Anybody/everybody can offer decent hardware and a brain with a gaggle of high quality sounds.

If you were playing on factory preset kits with no changes to how the pads should react to your playing them, no wonder it was less than satisfying.

I have a TD9KX2 that I've had for year and the first thing I did was mount the kick pad inside a real kick to prevent it from moving. The second was to purchase a VExpressions expansion pack as well VLibrarian. The difference between the stock Roland kits and the Acustix pack I purchased is like night and day. Last September we had a large corporate gig at a big live room with a huge install and the manager/sound tech asked me to bring my kick so we could A/B the sampled kick and the acoustic kick. PITA to bring two kick drums, the brain and of course the ridiculous cable loom that the TD9 requires (it's a 25-pin computer style connector at the brain and cables of various lenghts to eadh pad terminated in a 1/4" connector) but we had lots of time in the afternoon to mess around. The tech and the band loved the sampled kick (26" DW from the Acustix pack) so I took a flyer and used it that night with my acousic kit. No cross talk, no missed hits that I detected and it was pretty spectacular according to the tech at FOH. Rig is 6 x 18" subs per side and a pair of TX4's per side so a serious melt your face system. I haven't used the sampled kick live since as I went back to my 22" Starclassic acoustic kick as hauling around the brain, specific loom etc was a non-starter for other gigs. But if we book into a small bar or something and we're self mixing from stage I'd consider bringing the entire TD9 kit. The expansion pack from VExpressions makes a world of difference. YMMV

Have to second what kmart said, its all about adjusting the module, and there is almost no chance the GC staff take the time to do that in store.

My DM10 (a really cheap kit cost wise) sounded pretty cheap out of the box. After a few days and several hours of tinkering, I have found a happy place with it, and Im sure with more anal tweaking, I could make it sound even better.

I guess my point should be that with factory presets, and $7.5K later, it should sound and feel right out of the box.

I didn't tweak those settings, it wasn't intuitive enough to do with the hour I had to spend demo'ing the unit.

I knew the sensitivies were off and it needed fixing, but, by the same token, there's no fixing the intro for Rock and Roll - vDrums will NOT sound as good or better than a real kit. Being able to LAY into a hi-hat and getting it to explode, where doing the same thing it's just not going to do more when it peaks out...

I guess my point should be that with factory presets, and $7.5K later, it should sound and feel right out of the box.

I didn't tweak those settings, it wasn't intuitive enough to do with the hour I had to spend demo'ing the unit.

I knew the sensitivies were off and it needed fixing, but, by the same token, there's no fixing the intro for Rock and Roll - vDrums will NOT sound as good or better than a real kit. Being able to LAY into a hi-hat and getting it to explode, where doing the same thing it's just not going to do more when it peaks out...

I suggest you definitely abandon the idea of an eDrum solution if you expect them to be perfect right out of the box...

Perfect for you/your situation/preferences may not be the same for the next guy down the line, and so on. The idea, though, it that the system/unit allows for so much fine-tuning and adjustment that just about anybody should be able to get them to where they want.

Not trying to be a dick, but I just think your expectations are unrealistic...especially knowing what it's like to play on all sorts of 'just out of the box' kits as well as a high-end eKit that has been given such a 'tune up'.

I agree but was prepered for this from all of the research I had done before hand, hence the VExpressions within the first couple of days of purchase. BTW the expansion pack was $20 IIRC and VLibrarian was about the same. I believe that TD20/30 packs are the same $, but correct me if I'm wrong. The only settings I've tweaked in the year of ownership of my TD9 has been to add some percussion to a few kits, specifically on the rims of two dual-zone toms. Also I didn't buy my Vdrums to be a be all, end all solution. It's one of four kits, the other three being acoustic and is a great tool in my musical tool box.

As a tinker kit, I could see it working. Fact is, I don't have the time nor the energy to put that much effort into something. It will either work, or it won't work.

I *could* get it to work, I *could* massage it and make it do what I needed to do after an hour or so tinkering, but, for $7.5K??? For that kind of money I could get a damn serious kit and awesome cymbals....

Seriously, the problem with the kit is entirely with the dynamic range - but, the range itself is too narrow overall. Sure you can go from p to f, but you can't go to fffff....

It's not ready for the big time. By themselves they sound fine. In in some band settings they'll do fine. But, put them under a microscope, and at the price they command they earn that level of inspection, they fail.

Like I said, once you hit the e-hat and it's peaking out, it won't give you more. It can't do it. Not the case with my hats....I can hit it harder and harder until my stick explodes or the cymbal cracks, or my ears bleed.

The curve of loudness isn't linear. The sound is too damn processed and consistent. Do the intro of Rock and Roll on an eKit, then tell me how realistic it sounds, how it doesn't sound like a crappy midi file. Sure the individual samples they are using sound good, but, in that setting, that usage, that song - not even close. It just sounds like {censored}.

A fair amount of the above is simply not true...

For example, There IS a limit to the volume level you, a stick and a an acoustic set of hats can give off, period. And I, you and anybody else can get that extreme volume level out of a set of eHats. This is indisputable.

127 possible dynamic volume levels, minimum and especially maximum can be set as excessive as you like...OF COURSE it's not limitless , nor perfect.

Neither are you when playing acoustic drums and cymbals.

Again...

Out of the box is simply not the Way to accurately judge what one can or cannot do with an eKit is all I'm saying. But if you've already made your decision, so be it.

Yeah Kmart, he's made up his mind and as you say "so be it". His 60 minutes in a GC has set him up as an expert on e-drums. Whatever. But for those that are reading this thread with the idea of adding e-drums or a drum controller (DTX 12M, SPD-S, Octapad etc...) do your homework and download the manual for whatever piece you're thinking of givng the full buyer's inspection on. Have the factory re-set ready and ask the staff (or not...) if you can perform the reset. If you're serious and the staff know you and your serious intent...then this shouldn't be an issue. Who knows what "tom foolery" has been noodled into the module or controller before you sat down? At the very least, perform this when you get the product home and start fresh. Any of our brothers and sisters that have brought home an Elevenrack, POD or Motif has likely done this too.

I guess that answers this question. Time to start working on the 'finesse' side of your playing!

I'm no more an expert than anyone else on this forum...

Post the intro of Rock and Roll with an eKit, and lets hear how great and life-like it sounds. We already have clips of the original, recorded on antique (by today's standards) recording equipment, so if the TD30/TD30KV or whatever module you have is that awesome, that dynamic, that lifelike, then by all means, post it.

And, there's no comparison to the levels of dynamic content - I can barely tap my hats and get them to make a very quiet tick, or I can blast the {censored} out of them and blow an eardrum. Breaking down that level of difference into 127 steps just won't cut it - it'll be where you hit it just slightly harder, and it's a LOT louder than expected - you sacrifice consistency..