Use a Tube Amp? You're not truly Green.

[franknputer]

Or the fact that boutique tube amp builders in North America and Europe (i.e Fender, Marshall, Peavey, Boogie, Carvin, most boutique brands) have to comply with stricter envoronmental regulations than ss mass-producers in Southeast Asia?

Did you know that tube manufacturing involves a lot of toxic materials? That's a large part of why all your tubes come from those countries with loose environmental regulations.

[Magpel]

BTW, the tube problem ain't a fly on the butt of the environmental problems associated with computer waste.

 

Tubes are antiquarian. Pretty soon, boutique tubes will be the only tubes left. Its a small indulgence by a very very "niche" community.

[BlueStrat]

 

Yeah, like giving banks trillions? When our government can actually balance a checkbook, than I might trust them with some bigger responsibilities.

 

 

+ infinity

 

I drive a big honkin' 4WD truck. The windows in my house suck and need replacing. My old house is built with 2x4 construction and I swear must have toilet paper for insulation.

 

My wife work 30 miles away and drives it every day. I regularly drive 30k miles a year for work. I drive 20 miles one way to rehearsal. I ride a motorcycle for fun.

 

I'd need the biggest clown shoes in the world to begin to fill my carbon footprint. That is if I cared. I sure don't give a flat flying rip about what my tube amp consumes 4 hours a week.

 

The reality is we've been under several feet of ice about 30 times here and each time it warmed up and thawed out-long before any people lived here at all. We think we're going to stop it by switching to solid state amps?

 

Looks like we're headed for another cooling period anyway. Won't we feel like dumbasses if our efforts to combat 'AGW' are actually hastening a coming ice age?

 

Don't worry about it. Crank it up to ten and RAWK!!!

[Lee Flier]

Let me ask you this: why is it that people who are attempting to bring their lives in line with their consciences are held to this mocking, contemptuous higher standard. "You're not perfect after all. N'yah n'yah n'yah n'yah n'yah." It is this kind of thinking that discourages people from even trying.

 

Because the type of people who mock them are generally either 1) feeling guilty themselves, or 2) are the sort of people who have to see everything in black and white, and equate trying to be environmentally conscious with going back to the stone age. They've mostly been told to think that way by industries who don't want anybody to try to be green at all, as it cuts into their profits.

 

The reality is there are a lot of things we can do, both as individuals and on an intrastructure level, to ensure that we leave future generations enough resources to thrive. Forgetting about global warming, there are a zillion reasons to conserve NOW, and for our children, and there are a zillion ways to do it without becoming cavemen.

 

And now back on topic: tube amps really do not draw very much power. I could run any of my tube amps off a single solar panel. In fact most consumer electronics in general are not "power hogs" - the only culprits being stuff with remote controls and standby switches that draw power even when they're turned off. You can plug those into switched power strips and turn them off when you're not using them.

 

The biggest power draws in a house by far are heating, cooling and lighting. Your AC and refrigerator will be the biggest culprits, plus if you have electric furnace, oven, dryer, etc. their heating elements will draw a lot of power. So, where possible, use a gas furnace and stove, and if you have an electric oven, use a smaller toaster oven for making smaller portions. Microwaves are more efficient than electric stoves and usually don't need to be on for as long. Etc.

 

There are quite a few super-energy-saving refrigerators on the market these days, and you'll notice real savings on your power bill if you get one. Try to get one with the coil on the top instead of the bottom... heat rises up from the coil and the typical bottom-coil fridge then has to work harder to cool the hot air that rises from the coil!

 

Obviously anything you can do to insulate your house so that it doesn't need as much AC or heat is great. Blown-in attic insulation is a real saver, because so much heat gets in via the roof. Planting deciduous trees on the south side of the house and evergreens on the north side is good, too - the leaves will fall off the deciduous trees in the winter and let sunlight in, but in summer they will shade the house from the sun. The evergreens, meanwhile, will act as a windbreak during the winter.

 

If you start doing these things now, you will save a lot on your power bill AND it would make it fairly easy to switch to alternative energy in the future, if you ever wanted or needed to. It may not seem like much but you can save over 50% on your power by doing these things. And if everybody did these things, the amount of energy we could save would be huge.

 

Stopping your use of tube amps, on the other hand, won't save very much. You gotta pick your battles, and being green doesn't mean you can't enjoy yourself. To me it just means being more independent and resourceful, which I do enjoy anyway.

[Lee Flier]

 

Looks like we're headed for another cooling period anyway. Won't we feel like dumbasses if our efforts to combat 'AGW' are actually hastening a coming ice age?

 

 

To be honest, as much of a greenie as I am, I don't really give a crap about global warming. There are too many much more imminent reasons we need to get off of our dependence on fossil fuels, and the focus on global warning just gives people who "don't believe in it" an excuse to ridicule environmentalism in general.

 

The simple fact is we don't have unlimited resources and we've been behaving as if we do. Pollution, disease, and war have been the result, and all will only get worse if we don't develop systems to deal with it. It is well within our capability to do so, without returning to the Stone Age.

 

I find it a little odd that many self professed libertarian, fiercely independent, rugged individualists would rail so hard against being energy independent.

[BlueStrat]

I find it a little odd that many self professed libertarian, fiercely independent, rugged individualists would rail so hard against being energy independent.

Tell that to the leaders of congress. I'm all for it. You and I are probably in 90% agreement.

[MrKnobs]

Well, all the conservation and carbon footprint stuff doesn't mean a thing as long as the global population keeps expanding. One person living in the US taking every possible step to conserve doesn't begin to equal one more child being born in terms of impact on the environment.

 

As for global warming, by the time we realized we were IN the game, the game was already over.

 

Now we'll just see what happens.

 

Terry D.

[Lee Flier]

 

Tell that to the leaders of congress. I'm all for it. You and I are probably in 90% agreement.

 

 

Well the trouble is that, particularly in urban areas, we need the help of government to become energy independent. It will require some retooling of infrastructure as well as just individuals implementing energy saving measures in their homes. Out where you are, it's a different story, but since most of the population lives in cities and suburbs, that requires some public planning.

[BlueStrat]

Now we'll just see what happens.

When has it ever been any different?

 

[MrKnobs]

When has it ever been any different?

 

Never in recorded history.

 

We're like monkeys trying to run a nuclear reactor. God help us all.

 

Terry D.

[Lee Flier]

When has it ever been any different?

 

Right, so our actions have no consequences, and we should never think through what we're doing and how we could do it better.

[BlueStrat]

Well the trouble is that, particularly in urban areas, we need the help of government to become energy independent. It will require some retooling of infrastructure as well as just individuals implementing energy saving measures in their homes. Out where you are, it's a different story, but since most of the population lives in cities and suburbs, that requires some public planning.

 

Agreed.

 

I live near Spokane WA a city of nearly 400k. They have a decent bus system but lots of people (like my wife) commute the 30 miles into town for work (Washington pays about 10k a year more than where we live and taxes are WAY lower in Idaho, where my work is). There have been efforts for the past 15 years to get a light rail put in for commuters (some people commute this way from there too).The tracks are even already there, but there is just so much opposition to it. People who don't want a train running through their area. People who own property that is commercial and would have to give some of it up. City council guys who don't want to give up the taxes generated from the property that station stops would need. And so it goes.

 

The insanity is that every 5-6 years the freeway needs to be resurfaced because of grooves worn into it from studded tires and big trucks. Just the few extra years that could be had from the life of the freeway would nearly offset the cost of the train.

 

In addition there is no north- south freeway in Spokane even though a major highway goes right through downtown and on for nearly 8 miles. This is nothing but stop and start traffic all the way up. They have been arguing about this for 25 years and know how badly they need it but no one wants to budge.

[BlueStrat]

Right, so our actions have no consequences, and we should never think through what we're doing and how we could do it better.

 

That isn't what I'm saying. I'm just saying that no matter what we do, have done, or will do, we always have to wait and see what happens. We can never (it seems) anticipate the unintended consequences of our good intentions. The forests and lakes around where I live are prime examples of that.

 

Eradicate the wolves? Oops....the deer population is like cats. Bring the wolves back? Oops...they're eating cattle, which are far easier to catch than deer. Clear cut? Oops, the erosion obliterated some spawning beds for cutthroat trout. Bring back the cutthroat? Oops, they've crowded out the Rainbows who eat Kokanee spawn and now the Kokanee are taking over the lake. Introduce Chinook/Lake trout hybrids to eat the Kokanee? Whoops, now the lake trout are HUGE and eating everything with fins. Preserve old growth forest? Oops, major infestation of bark beetles, silverfish, gypsy moths and major forest fire hazard.

 

And on and on and on...

[Lee Flier]

 

The new religion is the environment, and its minions are working hard to preach the good word...The Enviromental Inquisition is coming folks.... Gwinnett county is fining folks who don't recycle.....

 

 

I live less than a mile from the Gwinnett County line. I think this is a great idea. Gwinnett is overcrowded because developers were allowed to run rampant there without much thought being given to infrastructure. If waste isn't cut down, the county will have to build another landfill, which would no doubt cause taxes to go up for everybody.

 

I think it makes all the sense in the world to simply fine the people who won't do their part rather than have to raise everyone's sanitation fee because some people won't recycle.

 

But it figures that someone would try to spin this as some kind of Gestapo move. It's one of the few sensible things Gwinnett has done - they refused to allow Atlanta's metro rail system into their county, and the suburban sprawl and resulting traffic snarls there are unbelievable. A little planning on the part of local government could have resulted in a much more pleasant place to live for all.

[Lee Flier]

 

That isn't what I'm saying. I'm just saying that no matter what we do, have done, or will do, we always have to wait and see what happens. We can never (it seems) anticipate the unintended consequences of our good intentions.

 

 

Well, of course not. Particularly when it comes to ecosystems. We have to be somewhat flexible and able to respond to changing conditions when it comes to that, because conditions will change.

 

But again many people use that as an excuse for complete inaction, and that's a bummer. We can probably all agree that pollution is a bad thing for everybody, and fossil fuels are a finite resource, therefore efforts to conserve energy, reduce demand and re-use waste nearly always bring positive results. And improving city infrastructure, while painful in the short term in terms of expense and disruption, in the long term improves everybody's lives.

[BlueStrat]

 

But again many people use that as an excuse for complete inaction,

 

 

Agree completely.

[rotgutt]

Seriously buy a couple of cfl bulbs and don't worry about it. Its not like people leave their amps on for 8 hours at a time or have 20 of them in their house.

[Lee Flier]

 

There have been efforts for the past 15 years to get a light rail put in for commuters (some people commute this way from there too).The tracks are even already there, but there is just so much opposition to it. People who don't want a train running through their area. People who own property that is commercial and would have to give some of it up. City council guys who don't want to give up the taxes generated from the property that station stops would need. And so it goes. The insanity is that every 5-6 years the freeway needs to be resurfaced because of grooves worn into it from studded tires and big trucks. Just the few extra years that could be had from the life of the freeway would nearly offset the cost of the train.

 

 

Yeah... see, stuff like that is just completely insane (we have a lot of that kind of crap in the outlying areas around Atlanta too). And that's where governments need to grow a set and just say "tough titty, we're doing this." Because some people can't see past the nose on their face doesn't mean everyone should suffer for it.

[Jeff Leites]

I could care less if my tube amp was green.

 

I've always had trouble with that expression. If you could care less, doesn't that mean that you do care to some degree, because there is some room left for you to care to a lesser degree? I always say, "I couldn't care less", meaning I already care as little as possible, inferring, that I don't care at all. :poke::facepalm:

 

Edit : After posting this, I did some research. It turns out, I'm right. Here is the Caring Continuum:

 

[BlueStrat]

meaning I already care as little as possible, inferring , that I don't care at all

Don't you mean implying?

 

 

 

 

 

[MrKnobs]

The insanity is that every 5-6 years the freeway needs to be resurfaced because of grooves worn into it from studded tires and big trucks. Just the few extra years that could be had from the life of the freeway would nearly offset the cost of the train.

 

Well, no.

 

You're right in saying the constant resurfacing (the grooves are called "ruts") is due to trucks. Setting up light rail isn't going to get rid of the trucks, and even if all the cars were eliminated entirely it would make only the tiniest difference in the life cycle cost of the roadway (i.e. time between repair / rehab / reconstruction cycles). Damage goes up with the fourth power of the load, which means if you allow the legal axle weight to double, you get 16 times the damage to the road. With a standard truck axle weighing 18,000 lbs, that's a hell of a lot more damage than a 1,500 lb passenger car axle.

 

Trust me on this, it's my profession.

 

Where the savings would come from light rail is in user cost. User cost is driven by congestion, and some of the various incurred costs include extra fuel consumption, increased accident rate, and wasted time as everyone sits in the moving parking lot of rush hour.

 

How much is a person's wasted time worth?

 

If you put even a small value on it, user costs overwhelm all the other costs and ANY amount of construction is justified to relieve this cost. Plugging $1/hr into the life cycle cost programs used to decide rehabilitation schemes causes all the construction costs input into the program to be meaningless.

 

So what's done? User costs are ignored. They're just a hidden tax on the roadway users, one that everyone pays, one that no one would vote to pay for any other way.

 

That's how it is.

 

Terry D.

[Jeff Leites]

Don't you mean implying ?

 

You're right! I just found a web page that explains the difference. Thanks for pointing that out.

[blue2blue]

In respect for your fellow humans and other creatures on the planet, do you feel guilty plugging into your tube amp? Let the discussion begin...

 

My carbon footprint, vis a vis the typical US American, is quite small.

 

Even with my Blues Jr turned on from time to time.

 

 

Still, I have no doubt that there are far more egregious wastes of energy on my part than cranking up the ol' hum box every now and then.

[BlueStrat]

That's how it is.

We'll just see what happens!

 

 

[Guitzilla]

I conciously use my amps less for environmental reasons. I practice on acoustic, which has had a huge impact on my technique.

 

I will gladly give up tube amps once the technology is to the point that I cannot feel the difference between tube and modeling. I use modeling, but it is not a replacement for the tones that I can coax out of my tube amps.

Brian