Best Optimized DAWs for Virtual Instruments?

ew_ · April 12, 2009

And if you've EVER had Norton on your system, run - don't walk - to the Norton web site, dig down many layers, and locate the tool for removing ALL vestiges of Norton from your machine.

Amen, brother! I've seen systems where you couldn't even install USB peripherals if there was anything Norton related on it.

Oh- and McAfee falls in the same category, and the fix is the same. Use the McAfee removal tool (you'll have to dig for that as well). Both of those are just as bad as the virii and malware they're supposed to protect against.

ew

ggm1960 · April 12, 2009

DP 5 - For 3rd party plugins and low latency playback, DP is the winner. Using a samples buffer of 256 makes all my plugins feel and play great. DP still feels fine with a buffer setting of 512 samples for most things, but I still wouldn't use a guitar sim with it at 512. Supposedly DP 6 is much better at optimizing 3rd party VIs and effects, but DP 5 is already very good.

Also, DP is the only DAW I own for Mac that I can use EastWest Play and still get reasonable performance. However, DP sometimes crashes.

Great post. I'm curious about the hardware end of your system. I switched to a MBP for live control/backing tracks and so had to switch from using Sonar/PC. I settled upon DP5 because of it's features that are well tailored for live use, specifically the ability to have all my songs in one project and then be able to switch between them using program change from my XP-30 synth.

When I first started out I was using the program on my older MBP (2Ghz core duo 10.4.11) putting together my control and backing tracks. So far the only external VI I've used is SampleTank but I'll have any soft synth stuff bounced to audio before going live. Early on I seemed to be having a lot of crashes. For no explainable reason the crashes became less common as I went along. The only reason I could think of for crashes (besides the fact I didn't know what I was doing) was that I was using a USB flash drive rather than a firewire external drive.

I reached a point where I was comfortable enough with the program that I switched over to using my new MBP (2.4Ghz core2 duo 10.5.x). I also started using a Glyph PortaGig 800 7200 RPM external firewire HD. At this point it's been quite a while since I've had a crash and my project has gotten HUGE.

All along I've been using my trusty 'ole Hercules FW16/12 interface and had a MOTU MTP AV plugged into a USB port. I recently acquired a Presonus Firepod but don't see a reason to try incorporating it into what seems to be a pretty solid system at this point.

I'm pretty comfortable with this setup now and am looking forward to using it live for the first time on the 25th this month.

Cry Logic · April 13, 2009

Yes it could easily be any/all of the above.

But it never happened with the old midi

system which used the soundcard gameport.

Used it for years on many different PCs without

any problems .... solid as a rock.

USB just seems so easily spooked!

amplayer · April 14, 2009

Yes it could easily be any/all of the above.

But it never happened with the old midi

system which used the soundcard gameport.

Used it for years on many different PCs without

any problems .... solid as a rock.

USB just seems so easily spooked!

The reason the old ISA soundcard MIDI adaptor worked so well is because for the most part it didn't exist in a modern multi-threaded OS. Being DOS-based, and having only a low level driver (not an OS driver), it didn't have to worry about all the other crap going on.

I agree that USB can be unreliable for real-time apps like audio/MIDI. Unfortunately, even though Firewire is a much more robust protocol, the world is going USB and that's that. USB has gotten much better recently though, so having everyone on USB should mean it will get much more robust too.

bp · April 14, 2009

3) Logic 8 - Although this is often my Goto DAW package, it is a "Jack of all trades and master of none".

Live is much better for loops and time stretching. DP is much better for 3rd party support and film scoring.

Plugins that come with Logic are extensive, but I have better VI instruments for all of them except Sculpture. The Logic Delay Designer is fantastic and I am very fond of the included EQ and Reverb. 3rd party AU instruments and effects work just fine in Logic. However, the biggest bummer with Logic is that the samples buffer has to be set to 256 samples or lower for it to be even useful. Setting to 512 in Logic is unplayable for me. Eastwest Play is just not useful in Logic on my system unless the samples buffer is set to the unplayable 512 level.

On my system, Logic 8.02 has NEVER EVER crashed! It is so rock solid stable, that I often forget to keep hitting the command-S like I do in DP and Live! I have lost work in my other sequencers, but I have NEVER lost any work in Logic.

I use logic studio for both composition/sequencing and as a performance shell (Main Stage doesn't work nearly as well). I run at 128 samples without issue using either a Fireface 800 or Apogee Duet. Computer is a MacBookPro with 4 gig of ram. For my live rig, I run Omnisphere, Yellowtools Independence, Korg Wavestation, Scarbee rhodes and assorted Logic plugs. The rig is pretty damn solid. The only issue I ever had was when the MBP's hard drive started going. Time Machine worked great in getting right back up and Apple had my MBP back to me in three days with a new drive.

I've used Samplitude/Sequoia for years for recording/editing/mixing/mastering audio. I don't see using anything else for that type of work. The MIDI aspects have greatly improved and will take another leap forward in the next version. I'll be playing more with the MIDI side of Samplitude soon. I do some beta work for Magix and am lucky to have a small degree of input with the company.

In either case a clean computer with good memory and dedicated drives for sample based plugins is essential.

bp · April 14, 2009

I guess I was right .....USB for midi just sucks!

I've used old emagic Unitors for years in USB mode and they work great. No problem ever. I also use the RME Fireface MIDI via firewire and it works perfect as well.

There are some issues on windows machines when too many MIDI devices are installed over time. There is a 10 device limit in the registry IIRC, and you have to manually delete old unused devices to make room for new ones otherwise all MIDI devices become erratic.

The fix as posted by RME is available here.

AwayEam · April 14, 2009

MIDI's bandwidth is nothing compared to 1.1. I've never had MIDI problems with USB on Mac or Windows.

I'm starting to think there could be several other "gotchas" in play here.

1. Start up programs that run in the background (e.g., Microsoft Office Fast Find, indexing, etc.).

2. Anti-virus programs that are constantly scanning your hard drives.

3. Conflicts within the system (e.g., for some people, disabling a wireless card solved weird problems).

4. Drivers for other elements of the system need updating - you'd be amazed how much a graphics card affects performance, and sometimes updating graphics card drivers can fix audio problems.

IOW, there could be things that are essentially taking over your computer at crucial moments when note-offs happen, and a particular program or combination of events pushes it "over the edge."

These are hard to track down, but when you do, it's astonishing how much your computer will improve on all levels. And if you've EVER had Norton on your system, run - don't walk - to the Norton web site, dig down many layers, and locate the tool for removing ALL vestiges of Norton from your machine.

HEY BRO

Except for driver issues, all of those things would likely just delay recording of the MIDI events by a few milliseconds (without altering the final timing).

Agreed on the anti-virus point, though. The amount of crap that comes with Norton, McAfee, ZoneAlarm, AVG, etc. has become absolutely astounding. I use COMODO now as it's free and relatively inoffensive. Plus I like the behavioural analysis it does (called Defense+).

@ Fretwizz

Your MIDI dropout is not due to some inherent weakness in the USB protocol. In fact, USB itself is almost certainly not the culprit. The problem could happen at many points in the MIDI chain, some more likely than others.

MIDI controller - may not be sending note-offs properly

MIDI cables - could be interference. MIDI is an ancient protocol and doesn't have provisions for proper checksumming and retransmission

USB interface - May have a faulty MIDI port, wiring problem, or firmware bug

USB cable - Assuming you're not getting audio dropouts or sporadic device disconnections, this isn't the problem. It would be extremely obvious if it was.

USB hub/controller - Also not the problem

Interface drivers - Definite possibility that they are the problem

DAW - Also a possibility

I'd recommend the following diagnostics (try only one thing at a time):

1. Upgrade to the latest interface drivers

2. Try a different controller

3. Try different MIDI cables

4. Plug the interface into a different computer (same DAW)

5. Try a different DAW

If the problem is very sporadic, it may take a long time to confirm its persistence (or lack thereof) at each step. If 4 solves it, it's probably a driver conflict - reinstall stuff. If none of them solve it, it's probably the interface itself or an unresolved issue in its drivers.

I'd guess a driver issue. I work as a programmer and the quality of audio software in general, and drivers in particular, seems piss-poor to me.

AwayEam · April 14, 2009

The reason the old ISA soundcard MIDI adaptor worked so well is because for the most part it didn't exist in a modern multi-threaded OS. Being DOS-based, and having only a low level driver (not an OS driver), it didn't have to worry about all the other crap going on.

I agree that USB can be unreliable for real-time apps like audio/MIDI. Unfortunately, even though Firewire is a much more robust protocol, the world is going USB and that's that. USB has gotten much better recently though, so having everyone on USB should mean it will get much more robust too.

HEY BRO

I agree that Firewire is better designed than USB 2, but that's really not the problem in most cases. The latency introduced by USB vs. FireWire is negligible, and they both have enough bandwidth for most recording purposes.

The real problem is complexity. Creating a proprietary USB interface is tons more complicated than using OS-supplied MIDI drivers. Pro audio shops like M-Audio simply don't have programmers with the chops to create proper, stable drivers (no mean feat, I assure you). There's a good reason all these audio drivers aren't Windows Logo Certified.

And yes, M-Audio get singled out for not even bothering to write 64-bit Win XP drivers. And for having crappy 32-bit ones.

Cry Logic · April 15, 2009

Yeah I have the new Cakewalk by Roland branded midi interfaces

up in another browser window as I write this .. they look pretty good.

http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/UAUM/default.asp

Or I could go back in time and buy an Echo Audio Mia Midi

which, although around 7 years old now, are still in production.

I'm using a standard Mia (no midi) at the moment in Vista 64.

Echo were one of the 1st to have 64 bit drivers for their products

and even supplied them for the Mia though it's discontinued.

And they're rock solid on my setup.

Or I might get a firewire audio interface tha thas midi I/O.

But those Cakewalk boxes look pretty good.

And they have "FPT";)

gdoubleyou · April 15, 2009

The Logic Node feature may help Logic load more virtual instruments, but does it do it with fewer playback problems?

I also wonder if the Logic Node feature helps Logic get past the limits imposed by its 32-bit architecture. If not, then I wonder how helpful the extra computers are considering how powerful today's Macs are.

Thanks,

girevik

!

Best,

Geoff

I think the node feature was for the older Power PC machines.

I have an older Mac Mini, on sessions of 32-48 tracks CPU meter rarely goes over 35%, so I haven't found a need for a node.

amplayer · April 25, 2009

Logic is still by far the most stable DAW I have. However, I did experience my first crash in Logic the other day. It happened on a bounce to disk during the Normalization phase. Of course, there were lots of 3rd party plugins involved including one that's still in Beta. However, I believe this one to be a Logic error since it happened during the Normalization phase of the bounce.

Also, Re the plugins in Logic:

I just completed a project that required '80s break dance music. The temp music in the scene I was scoring included the vocoder sound. The director loved the temp music and wanted something similar.

I had never tried the EVOC 20 Polysynth in Logic, so I was a bit tentative. Well, a quick read of the manual and I was good to go in less than an hour. I must say, if you need a vocoder, the included EVOC 20 in Logic is simply FANTASTIC! It sounds great and it's dirt simple to use. WOW!

Geoff Grace · April 28, 2009

amplayer, a couple of posters over at the SoundsOnline forums told me that Logic 7.2.3 runs better than Logic 8 -- even on Leopard. Here's a link to the thread (scroll down to the last few posts to read their comparisons):

Overload error New Mac Pro Logic/Play SO

Do you agree with their assessment?

Thanks for your input.

Best,

Geoff

amplayer · April 28, 2009

amplayer

, a couple of posters over at the SoundsOnline forums told me that Logic 7.2.3 runs better than Logic 8 -- even on Leopard. Here's a link to the thread (scroll down to the last few posts to read their comparisons):

Overload error New Mac Pro Logic/Play SO

Do you agree with their assessment?

Thanks for your input.

Best,

Geoff

Sorry, but I can't say. I only have Logic Express 7, not Logic Pro, so I don't know. I didn't use Logic Express that much anyways even though I use Logic Pro 8 a lot.

Geoff Grace · April 28, 2009

No sweat, amplayer.

I appreciate what you've shared regardless.

Best,

Geoff

pbognar · April 29, 2009