my so called music career, i need to hear from you

[soundwave106]

 

In what era are you guys living?!?! Known bands give away their new albums for free on their website, people download and exchange cds like crazy over the internet and with mp3 players. And do you expect to make a living out of selling your UNKNOWN band cds at live shows?! I had the fortune of meeting a few pro musicians like The Ataris, MxPx, Sum 41 and asking them a few question about business and FOR SURE their revenue doesn't come anymore from selling records.

 

 

Well, the "business model", if you could call it that, is not exactly lucrative these days for original music. I too have met "pro musicians", not quite at even the Ataris level but not insignificant. Even nationally recognized, touring acts often are more "semi-pro" than "pro", working at other jobs for a living, basically taking vacation time or slow season time (if they are manual labor) to perform. If you are successful enough you get paid vacations out of the deal, which is kinda cool I suppose. But only the really top-level artists (the ones *everyone*, not just scenesters, know) can be paid anything worthwhile, IMHO.

 

In general, you have to be leary about giving away things for free.

 

But I will comment and say that *some* giveaways are expected when it comes to starting out in original music. Recording demos that were given away practically for at cost to fans (in hopes of scooping up the right A&R rep at the right time) was not an uncommon practice even back in the 1980s. (The tape trading days.) These days, if the cost is virtually nothing, giving demos away for virtually nothing makes some degree of sense. You after all need something to schmooze and build buzz.

 

I would tend to limit any freebies to stuff that costs nothing to put out there. Myspace links, for instance, is a good freebie to give away. To me it honestly makes far more sense to design a cool-looking card with your MySpace link, and give *that* away, than it does to burn free CDs these days. If you want to do the "giveaway" trick you would even be better off selling a branded products with freebies (a USB stick, for instance, with giveaway MP3 demos as a bonus).

 

During the tape-demo days, some people got really creative with how people packaged their demo tapes so people would maybe *remember* you. There's an opportunity for doing that in the digital world... with the music product itself going down in value, the brand IMHO is increasingly becoming quite a bit more important.

[Sir Punk]

bluestrat. I agree a lot with your third paragraph. To put it in a few words, as it happens with every market, it became highly saturated and it's getting closer and closer to collapse, technology is accessible and cheap for everyone. Technology has become ubiquitous and quality has been going down the drain. The whole napster thing gave it an incredible boost to sink records sales. On the other side concert tickets went up.

 

I also agree with what soundwave said.

[sabriel9v]

Precisely. Sir Punk asked in what era are some of us are living. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm from an era before playing for free was even a consideration unless it was a friend's birthday party or some such private affair. No one thought of playing for nothing in public, and if they did, doing so could get them an asswhipping from a large group of guys who depended on paying gigs for their living. Of course, in that era, not just any swinging dick with a guitar and pro tools was considered a 'recording artist'. Few bands could come up with the scratch to make a vinyl record. You actually had to have enough on the ball to get someone to front your record, which means they were investing in your earning potential. Now, every hobbyist on the planet fancies himself as a songwriter, recording artist, record producer, recording, mixing and mastering engineer, graphic designer, distributor, booking agent, and band manager. And it shows. They make a CD and, armed with a wheelbarrow full of myth and misinformation, plow on ahead into the business, without a clue as to how any of it works. The have no idea of any of it, from copyrights to licensing to publishing, or what ASCAP or BMI does, how airplay works, how record company submissions work, and lots of other things one needs to know to succeed in the music biz. When a suggestion is made to hire an entertainment lawyer or a producer, the response is something on the order of "WHAT!? But that costs money! I'd rather do it cheap! Can't I just write on the CDRs with magic marker...", as if being in any successful business doesn't have costs. So the only alternative to education is to just give it all away in hopes of getting interest. Give away CDs, MP3s, play for free... In the rest of the business world, it's laughingly called "throwing everything against the wall and seeing what sticks". Hardly a sound business model or plan. To my mind, it's the difference between building bird houses in the garage and real ones for the public to live in. Today, the music biz has become the equivalent of the birdhouse builder entering the housing market and giving their product away for free. The only reasons to do so is either 1) the knowledge that the product isn't really good enough to compete in the marketplace (Yeah, I know I'm giving it away, but it was recorded in my basement with one mic on a two track reel to reel..."), or 2) the artist in question has no idea how to go about marketing, and can't be bothered to learn, and since everyone else is giving it away (because they don't know any better either), that appears to be the current model to success. I don't care, if guys want to spin their wheels for a few moments of momentary local progress, that's their business. I'm at the end of my musical career and don't care much about it one way or another anymore. It just saddens me to see the business I devoted a lifetime to morph into something that is unrecognizable. Being pro musician used to be not only possible at the local level, it used to be a bit of a prestigious occupation. As a young guy at age 25 I made more money playing 24 hours a week than my friends did framing houses or plumbing for 40 hours. In 1980, 400-500 dollars a week cash was nothing to sneeze at. But this is now, most of the paying gigs are gone, and the ones that do pay don't pay any more than they did 28 years ago. And there's no shortage of guys lined up to take them.

 

 

What do you think of this Bluestrat? Instead of simply giving away one's music for free, making your cd or demo the ticket to a show. Fans can pay $5-10 for a ticket to the show, but receive your cd with the "ticket" purchase before they are allowed to enter the venue. So really you're using the cd (and maybe a hand stamp) as a ticket to gain entry into the show.

[ermghoti II]

This is because they haven't taken the time to learn anything about business...

 

 

Not that bad economic strategy isn't a handicap, but it's far more of a problem that the pay for a band is roughly the same, in dollars, as it was in 1974. Supply exceeds demand, by miles. Four high school kids can outfit themselves for a couple week's pay from McD's, can write what passes for music in as long as it takes to master playing two chords in a row, and they're off. Meanwhile, venues are closing, and bar owners can set a MP3 player to shuffle, and dispense with a dozen permits on top of not having to pay anybody. I can't imagine why a bar would put in a stage, rather than a couple of big screet HDTVs and a cable connection, from a financial standpoint. Playoff season will draw more people, with less effort, than any unsigned band.

 

Getting good on an instrument, forming a tight band, and playing some shows used to be a fun way to pick up some cash. Now, it's more than likely a constant financial drain, unless, as I suggested, you become a GB band. Even then, it's highly unlikely one will make a living at it.

[sabriel9v]

 

can't imagine why a bar would put in a stage, rather than a couple of big screet HDTVs and a cable connection, from a financial standpoint. Playoff season will draw more people, with less effort, than any unsigned band.

 

 

I've seen venues do this before. It looks kinda cheesy when they advertise their cheap drink specials and projector screen on "Gameday night," but hell it works. Those same venues are still in business while others who do strictly live original bands are drowning.

[masterbuilt]

Recently, a bunch of venues got busted for not having proper agreements with performance societies and they were using the radio as entertainment. They got hit with stiff fines and had to pay licensing fees to boot.

I'd love to see more of that in the news. ASCAP reports these types of incidents, but, the mainstream media does not.

[BATCAT]

Well, the "business model", if you could call it that, is not exactly lucrative these days for original music. I too have met "pro musicians", not quite at even the Ataris level but not insignificant. Even nationally recognized, touring acts often are more "semi-pro" than "pro", working at other jobs for a living, basically taking vacation time or slow season time (if they are manual labor) to perform. If you are successful enough you get paid vacations out of the deal, which is kinda cool I suppose. But only the really top-level artists (the ones *everyone*, not just scenesters, know) can be paid anything worthwhile, IMHO.

There's definitely a new model in place, and it's definitely not clear how indie/small-label bands are going to make money, besides from shows.

I spent the last ten years playing in a band that just went on an indefinite hiatus. We put out four albums and an EP, got some national airplay and press, yadda yadda. But after a decade of working at it, it is harder now for us to make a buck than ever.

In 2004 we self-released an album and had paid for our first round of pressing (a couple thousand, pretty fancy packaging) within a few months. 2006 saw it getting harder. And the one we put out this year was download-only, pay-what you like. We just couldn't justify sinking thousands into it when we know it was very unlikely we could recoup. (granted it was sort of a farewell album too, so the circumstances were a little different)

I don't like the idea of giving music away. To just hand over something I've labored so hard over seems wrong. But the CD is starting to look just a little bit like a dinosaur, and controlling access online to music for which there is actually a demand is, as we know, really hard.

My new band approaches it like this: we do limited runs of 20 or so CDs (actually high quality CDRs) at a time from Kunaki (to sell at shows), we make a few songs available for free download, and we sell the rest online (through various services) for a buck a song.

[germanicus2112]

This is because they haven't taken the time to learn anything about business, and so giving it away to "get your foot in the door" the only thing they can think of to do. It's silly, because (oh God, here I go again, for the 100th time) it teaches you nothing about business. It is a lazy way to try to gain acceptance. It is a shortcut that is misapplied. Sure, it works for Costco to give away free samples of soup or salmon patties, because people are going to go back and buy those soups or salmon patties maybe 10 or 20 more times. If you give away your music, what else do you have to sell? Once you give it away, what is there to go back and buy? No one is going to buy multiple copies of your CD, are they? Just my .02.

 

 

I dont believe its this black and white. I agree completely you should NOT give away/sell/lend sub par recordings to potential fans.

However, giving things away for free can also be extremely beneficial to a budding band.

Take for instance "No Life, Til Leather." Metallica in 1982 spread the album out among tape traders, and was a huge part of them getting a burst of initial exposure, as the tapes literally made its way from city to city. They had no A&R rep, publicist, or marketing budget yet this tape literally launched them. Its very possible had they not done this, you would not know their name.

 

You say its as simple if its ready to market, then you should charge for it, but I think thats not accurate if you dont have an audience base yet.

If a band is attempting to build a following in a region, getting people to listen to their music is everything. Samplers/Demos/Freebies can be an extremely effective way of doing this, and there are alot of folks out there who will choose not to drop 10 bucks on a band they havent heard, or only heard snippets of, you could be losing potential fans. If someone believes in their music, why not? Do you think someone is going to say "Oh its free, then I wont listen to it, but I was willing to buy it!".

 

The worst scenario is that someone would have payed for it anyhow, but in this case, you are still getting your recording exposed to them. The question to analyze is does the number of potential 'Would of payed anyhow' people outweigh the number of people who 'Wouldnt have purchased it to listen but will now'.

 

From a business perspective, its a basic precept that people need to be exposed to your product/service to build your mark. A bands performance at a gig can be affected by so many variables, and getting a good recording into the hands of someone could be the difference between them liking/disliking the group and therefore coming out again to see them perform and spreading the word about them.

[BlueStrat]

 

I dont believe its this black and white. I agree completely you should NOT give away/sell/lend sub par recordings to potential fans. However, giving things away for free can also be extremely beneficial to a budding band. Take for instance "No Life, Til Leather." Metallica in 1982 spread the album out among tape traders, and was a huge part of them getting a burst of initial exposure, as the tapes literally made its way from city to city. They had no A&R rep, publicist, or marketing budget yet this tape literally launched them. Its very possible had they not done this, you would not know their name. You say its as simple if its ready to market, then you should charge for it, but I think thats not accurate if you dont have an audience base yet. If a band is attempting to build a following in a region, getting people to listen to their music is everything. Samplers/Demos/Freebies can be an extremely effective way of doing this, and there are alot of folks out there who will choose not to drop 10 bucks on a band they havent heard, or only heard snippets of, you could be losing potential fans. If someone believes in their music, why not? Do you think someone is going to say "Oh its free, then I wont listen to it, but I was willing to buy it!". The worst scenario is that someone would have payed for it anyhow, but in this case, you are still getting your recording exposed to them. The question to analyze is does the number of potential 'Would of payed anyhow' people outweigh the number of people who 'Wouldnt have purchased it to listen but will now'. From a business perspective, its a basic precept that people need to be exposed to your product/service to build your mark. A bands performance at a gig can be affected by so many variables, and getting a good recording into the hands of someone could be the difference between them liking/disliking the group and therefore coming out again to see them perform and spreading the word about them.

 

 

Sorry, I don't buy it. I put out 4 full length CDs in 5 years and never had to give any of them away except to promoters and producers. I sold them for $10-15 apiece. I also did tons of concert and festival gigs after starting out from scratch, and not only never had to play for free, but got paid $1000-1650 for 75-90 minute shows. If you know something about how business works and you have a marketable product, you can do it without giving it away. If you have to play or give away music for free to draw a crowd, you're doing something wrong.

[germanicus2112]

Sorry, I don't buy it. I put out 4 full length CDs in 5 years and never had to give any of them away except to promoters and producers. I sold them for $10-15 apiece. I also did tons of concert and festival gigs after starting out from scratch, and not only never had to play for free, but got paid $1000-1650 for 75-90 minute shows. If you know something about how business works and you have a marketable product, you can do it without giving it away. If you have to play or give away music for free to draw a crowd, you're doing something wrong.

 

 

What dont you buy? What does that have to with my points? Its about what people are willing to do, and what the artist is willing to do to get people to hear their music.

 

How business works?

Every business on earth spends startup funds before they bring back in capitol from the consumer. Its simply good business to expose as many folks as possible to your product/service. What do you think companies do with new products before they have an established name in the marketplace?

 

Dont you think its valuable to turn someone on to your music, even if it means you take a small hit in the shortterm (the cost of a disc)? If that person ends up coming to ONE more of your shows because of it, its payed off in spades, not to mention the word of mouth they can contribute by turning others on.

 

There are plenty of people who have had success, without doing freebies, but honestly there are tons how have used them effectively. if getting more people exposed to your music is possible (If you want to look at in a business sense, its a startup cost, its advertising), whats the damage? More fans, more people coming to your show, more people spreading the word.

 

What is your real concern? Depreciating the perceived value of others in the marketplace?

 

Whether you buy it or not, thats what Metallica did, as well as numerous other acts to gain exposure in the early 80's. Do you think that a band HASNT made it because they did this?

[masterbuilt]

What dont you buy? What does that have to with my points? Its about what people are willing to do, and what the artist is willing to do to get people to hear their music. Dont you think its valuable to turn someone on to your music, even if it means you take a small hit in the shortterm (the cost of a disc)? What is your real concern?

 

 

I'm with BlueStrat on this.

 

I have a very close friend that put $5000 into a CD, and tons of time cultivating his skills, recording, engineering, mixing, remixing, sending the mix to a master, getting the discs packaged and ready to sell. Getting distribution through Gallery of Sound stores... then some slime-ball put the album on Napster. People started downloading the music for free.

 

The problem with giving away music is that other avenues exist and giving away music, especially today, will only give young, spoiled brats more reason to NOT BUY music. They want to download everything for free whenever possible.

 

Right now, there is a big problem in the music industry that many people have not yet recognized. Clubs don't want to pay performers anymore. They want you to pass the hat or play for free to build name recognition. Twenty years ago, that would not have happened. I don't give a crap how important it is to play a particular venue in order to get the "in crowd" to hear you, for generations, people could make a living from their live performances and people always paid them to play. Even before Vaudeville, that was the rule.

 

Now, not only do clubs not want to pay, some want to be paid to give you the privilege of playing in their bar. So, clubs don't pay and kids want the music for free. How do you plan to make a living?

 

It is time for everyone to recognize this problem and start treating music as the business that it is.

[sabriel9v]

Sorry, I don't buy it. I put out 4 full length CDs in 5 years and never had to give any of them away except to promoters and producers. I sold them for $10-15 apiece.

I don't think he was referring to full lengths. He said short samplers could be used as freebies

[BlueStrat]

I don't think he was referring to full lengths. He said short samplers could be used as freebies

 

Right, but I'm talking about people giving away entire CDs and EPs. It's quite common nowdays. How many guys have you seen just on this forum who have adopted this as a means of drumming up interest? "I give away free cds at shows"-doubly stupid, since the people you're giving them to just saw you play and don't need a free sample.

 

The other consideration is that in the 80s/90s, when bands like Metallica gave away samples (and I don't know how many they gave out nor to whom), it was before every swinging schlong with a guitar was slinging CDs in an original band.

 

To my mind, there's a huge difference between giving away a few samples to increase the reach of a great band and giving away all your product because there is such a glut of music both in volume and poor quality that you can't sell it.

 

And yes, Germanicus is right when he says lots of busineses give away product to increase demand. But again, those are mostly tangible products that if the consumer likes, he'll go back and buy many more of. If you give away your CDs, what do you have left? Who is going to listen to their free CD and then go back and buy one a week or month for the next two years? No one, that's who.

 

The principle sounds good, though, which is it's appeal. After all, isn't radio just free samples of an artist's music? Isn't theat the way it's always worked-get a song on the radio, folks hear it, and go buy the record? Aren't we doing the same thing, just cutting out the middleman? The answer, of course, is obvious, or should be. Record companies got songs on the radio and restricted distribution of their hard copy. Once you start handing out hard copy or make your entire record available for free online, you've just shot yourself in the head.

[Sleeping_One]

I think you make some good points Blue Strat. But what is someone to do? If you can't get a club to pay you to play, where are you supposed to play? If kids don't want to buy your music, how do you get them to hear it?

 

Oh, and this isn't another opportunity for you to be an asshole to me. I'm asking genuine questions here. If you can't respond without being pompous I'd rather not hear from you.

[germanicus2112]

I think you make some good points Blue Strat. But what is someone to do? If you can't get a club to pay you to play, where are you supposed to play? If kids don't want to buy your music, how do you get them to hear it? Oh, and this isn't another opportunity for you to be an asshole to me. I'm asking genuine questions here. If you can't respond without being pompous I'd rather not hear from you.

 

 

Hes not being pompous, hes seen a dramatic shift in how musicians in general are treated economically in the marketplace.

 

There used to be more of a built in filtration in the music scene, that meant that every tom dick and jane didnt have access to recording and releasing albums. Now its much easier, which is good and bad. Good in that more folks can pursue their artistic desires, and Bad in that more folks can pursue their artistic desires.

 

Theres an ongoing sort of debate/discussion over several threads here that this availability of resources has actually diminished the value of others musicians worth in the marketplace (ie club owner can get a band to come in and play for free instead of paying another band).

 

Personally I think you should do what you can to expose people to your music, BUT NOT AT THE COST OF GIVING AWAY YOUR INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY (ie the other thread). Samples/Demo CD's is one thing, get those folks exposure, people who would likely come back out to see you again. Handing your tune over to a conglomerate to do whatever the hell they want for however long they wish, in whatever form of media they wish, is another.

[sabriel9v]

 

Right, but I'm talking about people giving away entire CDs and EPs. It's quite common nowdays. How many guys have you seen just on this forum who have adopted this as a means of drumming up interest? "I give away free cds at shows"-doubly stupid, since the people you're giving them to just saw you play and don't need a free sample. The other consideration is that in the 80s/90s, when bands like Metallica gave away samples (and I don't know how many they gave out nor to whom), it was before every swinging schlong with a guitar was slinging CDs in an original band.

 

 

I can empathize with your logic...but I think you're missing the point. Most of us are actually on the same page. I don't feel Germanicus is in favor of giving away full length lps and eps for free any more than you are. However, there are advantages to giving away free music samplers. I don't feel there's anything wrong with giving away a couple free tracks. You alluded to Metallica and their free demos. Yes, they gave away free cassettes before DIY/indie lps and eps became super popular...nonetheless, giving away free music was a method that worked for them. Same method, different time. Overall, I think it's pretty safe to say that we might have somewhat divergent opinions on this matter because of the genres that we specialize in. Bluestrat, you're playing a more horn-driven and contemporary blues. Most of the people you play to will purchase your album and don't download music very often. However, the people I perform in front of download all the time and rarely purchase cds. If I even want to give them something to enjoy and listen to after one of our shows, a little 2 song sampler can do the trick. And at this early stage in the game, as an artist I have very little to lose.

[Sleeping_One]

Yeah, that's true. I haven't seen it that before, because this is the only model I've known. In my experience, you always play for free and if there is enough left over, you might get $50. It's always been solely about exposure and networking. I've never seen things in light of your perspective. That's an interesting way of looking at it.

[masterbuilt]

I can empathize with your logic...but I think you're missing the point. Most of us are actually on the same page. I don't feel Germanicus is in favor of giving away full length lps and eps for free any more than you are. However, there are advantages to giving away free music samplers. I don't feel there's anything wrong with giving away a couple free tracks. You alluded to Metallica and their free demos. Yes, they gave away free cassettes before DIY/indie lps and eps became super popular...nonetheless, giving away free music was a method that worked for them. Same method, different time. Overall, I think it's pretty safe to say that we might have somewhat divergent opinions on this matter because of the genres that we specialize in. Bluestrat, you're playing a more horn-driven and contemporary blues. Most of the people you play to will purchase your album and don't download music very often. However, the people I perform in front of download all the time and rarely purchase cds. If I even want to give them something to enjoy and listen to after one of our shows, a little 2 song sampler can do the trick. And at this early stage in the game, as an artist I have very little to lose.

 

 

Picture this scenario:

 

"Hey, that's pretty good. What group is that?"

 

"Some new guy named "sabriel9v", why?"

 

"I like it, where can I buy it?"

 

"Man, you don't have to buy it, just go to one of his gigs, he gives his sh*t away, man."

[Sleeping_One]

There are other ways of making money though, through t-shirts and other forms of merchandise. That's how most of the bands and artists I know make most of their money. It absolutely sucks that people aren't going to pay for music, but that's where things are headed and there isn't really any stopping it. You can't just get people to change their minds and have things go back to the way it used to be. People have to be more creative now.

[germanicus2112]

Heres an idea, make a sampler/freebie/1$ demo available at shows which has 3-4 cuts on it, make it a multi-format Cdr that you can also put in your computer that has your bands web page info/link and band bio.

At the same time, sell your full CD for whatever.
Do both.

[BlueStrat]

There are other ways of making money though, through t-shirts and other forms of merchandise. That's how most of the bands and artists I know make most of their money. It absolutely sucks that people aren't going to pay for music, but that's where things are headed and there isn't really any stopping it. You can't just get people to change their minds and have things go back to the way it used to be. People have to be more creative now.

 

 

So, you're a musician, but you have to give it away, but that's okay, because it's really a means to sell schwag?

 

How the hell did bands end up becoming t-shirt salesmen to make any money?

 

{censored}, I'm glad my days are numbered. If I were in the music business just starting out today, I'd shoot myself in the face.

[Sleeping_One]

Haha, well that's how we feel too to be honest, but we aren't left with any options. Everyone wishes they could make a living off of the music they've worked so hard to create, but if people aren't going to by it because they can download it for free online, there really isn't anything you can do about it. Sad but true. It's not a means of selling {censored} just to sell {censored}, but you've got to come up with things that people are willing to buy so you can keep doing what you do, you know? It's so common now that bands really are just going to give their recordings away for free and think of other ways to supplement their income.

I wish to God the model was the same, but it's not and it's never going to go back to the good ol' days when you were doing your thing.

[nice keetee]

So, you're a musician, but you have to give it away, but that's okay, because it's really a means to sell schwag? How the hell did bands end up becoming t-shirt salesmen to make any money? {censored}, I'm glad my days are numbered. If I were in the music business just starting out today, I'd shoot myself in the face.

...sane thought actually but don't

[masterbuilt]

Haha, well that's how we feel too to be honest, but we aren't left with any options. Everyone wishes they could make a living off of the music they've worked so hard to create, but if people aren't going to by it because they can download it for free online, there really isn't anything you can do about it. Sad but true. It's not a means of selling {censored} just to sell {censored}, but you've got to come up with things that people are willing to buy so you can keep doing what you do, you know? It's so common now that bands really are just going to give their recordings away for free and think of other ways to supplement their income. I wish to God the model was the same, but it's not and it's never going to go back to the good ol' days when you were doing your thing.

 

 

Yes, there is something you can do about it. You are the artist. You are the musician. So, refuse to give your stuff away and be enthusiastic when you play. Put on a great show and don't worry about selling T-shirts. You know what, some people will begin to respect the fact that you are in it for the music, not to sell "stuff".

 

Once kids start to rediscover "art" in music, they might just jump into it and immerse themselves in the music rather than "the scene".

 

Setup a website that bashes the bling and swag sellers. Then, praise the music makers that are really artists. Compare yesterday's groups to todays wannabees and you are probably going to get a loyal following of people that respect that opinion.

 

Most of all.... stand on that principle and believe in yourself and your music.

[localmojo]

From my perspective, it never made a lot of sense to me for a band to hand out free physical copies of music as I don't feel that the CD that would be handed out would reach a large enough audience to justify the expense. If you give me a CD with a couple of your tracks, one of two things is likely to happen: I like it and keep it (audience of one) or I discard it (audience of zero). On the other hand, if you hand me a decent looking biz card or schedule card with your web address, and that website has more info about your music, along with a schedule of appearances, booking and contact info, and MAYBE one or two track samples, you've given me something that I'm a lot more likely to pass along to others.