What You've Been Waiting for: The Pitch Correction Challenge - Now with Soloed Vocals

[Anderton]

Here's a cover I did of the Buddy Holly song "Words of Love." It's not finished yet (I'm going to ask Brian Hardgroove to put on a bass part), but the vocals are done, so that's really all that's needed for the purposes of this exercise.

 

Download and listen to the song, then try to determine whether pitch correction was used extensively, not used at all, used only in a couple places, or whatever. Those who can hear pitch correction 100% of the time are welcome to spell out where it occurs, if in fact it does.

 

After this thread has run its course, I'll post a screen shot of the project so you can see what's what.

 

Extra credit questions:

 

Are those miked acoustic drums or programmed virtual drums (e.g., BFD)?

 

How many guitar parts did I play in the first 1 minute and 20 seconds of the tune?

 

Is the guitar sound from amp sims, miked amps, or a combination of the two? (That should be an easy one, but I still want to hear people's reactions.)

 

The object here is NOT to make anyone look bad, because frankly, if I didn't know what went into this song I'd probably get most of the answers wrong. But, I'm curious what y'all think, as I've never seen a situation where someone put up a song like this, and said okay, tell me what's going on. To me, it will be equally interesting whether everyone thinks the same thing, or everyone has completely different opinions.

 

One thing I will say: I used Vocal Rider EXTENSIVELY on the vocals, so don't let that fool you. (And don't let it fool you into thinking I'm great at gain-riding!!)

 

And yes, I do realize an MP3 file is not optimum, but it's all we have to work with and besides, this is all in fun.

[UstadKhanAli]

This'll be fun! I probably won't get ANYTHING right!

[Anderton]

 

This'll be fun! I probably won't get ANYTHING right!

 

 

Don't worry, I wouldn't have either. I had to look at the file to get the answers, I recorded it almost a year so I didn't remember exactly what I did.

[UstadKhanAli]

Don't worry, I wouldn't have either. I had to look at the file to get the answers, I recorded it almost a year so I didn't remember exactly what I did.

 

Oh, I'm not worried at all...I love this stuff. The thing is that I admit I can't tell a lot of things apart, and know that the ear can be tricked.

 

VOX: I have no idea, but the vocals sound a little odd to me, but more in the harmonizing, so I'm going to say that it was used extensively but tastefully.

 

DRUMS: BFD or some other programmed drums.

 

GTRS: One guitar part, done with amp sims. I'm guessing this as well. If there is a guitar part that was done with a mic, it'd probably be the distant mic sound, but I'm gonna guess that this was done with EQing and amp sims.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

A while back in this forum, probably when it was on MusicPlayer, we debated about film cameras and digital cameras. Someone eventually posted a photo, asking people to weigh in as to whether it was film or digital. After a while, I responded, saying that I not only felt it was digital, but that it was a cheap digital camera, and it looked a lot like the photos my cheap Kodak EasyShare digital camera took. As it turned out, the photo was indeed taken by a cheap Kodak EasyShare. I seriously doubt I'm that correct this time, but it'd be fun if I got most of 'em right!

[Anderton]

Well obviously I'm not going to comment yet, but thanks for breaking the ice and participating.

[Rekel]

Tricky questions, Craig and almost impossible to answer but hey, I'll play:

 

1)I don't think pitch correction was used on the vocals.

 

2) It's really hard to tell these days whether real drums were used or not but I'm guessing those were samples. The consistency of the snare sound mostly suggested that me. If it was indeed programmed it was done quite cleverly but I somehow suspect this was played using a midi kit with a real drummer.

 

3)The guitar parts in the first 1 minute and 20 seconds sounded like one track to me using plug ins.

[Anderton]

Another brave soul! Thanks Rekel. And yes, it is almost impossible to tell, but that alone says something right there...I didn't know which qualities would be obvious and which wouldn't, which was part of my reason for posting this. And of course, there's always the possibility that people are mostly right; this isn't necessarily a "digital" situation.

[Lee Flier]

I listened with extremely crappy laptop speakers, so I'll have another listen on my "real" computer tomorrow, but... I mostly concur with Rekel and Ken: it's obviously sampled drums, and the guitar sounds like a single guitar thru an amp sim, possibly then blasted out of the monitors (or even an amp) and "re-miked" with a distance mic which was then blended with the original track.

 

As for the vocal, it's obviously very heavily processed in general, including with a flanger or something similar that messes with the pitch anyway, so if pitch correction was used, it would be masked pretty well. But I'll say it was used in several places, particularly on the lowest notes, and on the harmonies (although there again, there's a robotic quality about them anyway due to other processing).

 

If my opinion changes or I have any more specifics to add after listening on decent speakers, I'll let ya know!

[Anderton]

I listened with extremely crappy laptop speakers, so I'll have another listen on my "real" computer tomorrow, but... I mostly concur with Rekel and Ken: it's obviously sampled drums

 

Do you think they're played or programmed?

 

As for the vocal, it's obviously very heavily processed in general, including with a flanger or something similar that messes with the pitch anyway

 

If this helps with your analysis, there is no flanging, chorusing, or any other kind of pitch modulating effect on the voice.

 

Some of the harmonies use harmony generating software, some use my real voice. However, the harmony generating software plays off the real voice, so if the real voice is pitch corrected, so are the harmonies and if the real voice is not pitch corrected, neither are the harmonies.

 

Now go listen on some REAL speakers That should help a lot.

[Lee Flier]

Do you think they're played or programmed?

 

They sound totally programmed. Though it's quite easy to get a real drummer to sound like programmed drums once you use sampled drums, play to a click, and quantize notes (not that it sounds 100% quantized, but just sayin' ).

 

If this helps with your analysis, there is no flanging, chorusing, or any other kind of pitch modulating effect on the voice.

 

Well in that case, there's pitch correction on much of it. It sounded most audible in the breakdown. I'm probably also hearing artifacts of the harmony generator blending in with the lead vocal. It sounds processed as hell, in any case.

 

Now go listen on some REAL speakers That should help a lot.

 

For sure. I'll do that as soon as I'm near some!

[UstadKhanAli]

 

Do you think they're played or programmed?

 

 

Okay, I know you were asking this of Lee, but we all can take a stab at this!

 

Some of the fills sound to me as if a drummer is playing it, while other parts sound programmed, so I would guess that you had someone play this, and then cut up a bunch of parts and cobbled them into what they are now.

 

 

If this helps with your analysis, there is no flanging, chorusing, or any other kind of pitch modulating effect on the voice.

 

 

I didn't think that there was any flanging or chorusing or whatever. I didn't hear any of that. The harmonies, as I mentioned above, sound a bit odd, and although I don't hear any obvious pitch correcting artifacts, something just doesn't sound right to me, and yes, as Lee pointed out, the low notes sound a bit weird.

[mach5guitar]

Anderton,

 

That is sick!! Why do you think it needs a bass?

 

I bet that because you've written so many articles about how to create expressive drum parts, you programmed sampled drums just to prove a point. Besides it soudns like it.

 

The amp sim thing is easy. You mentioned in high-tech guitar you were doing a remake of a Buddy Holly song using Dark fire. So if you were using Dark fire, you were using hex outs, so you were using Guitar Rig. Sounds like you might have beefed them up with something though like Lee Flier says. It sounds bigger than Guitar Rig patches.

 

Pitch correction is either all over the thing to mess with peoples minds, or you didn't use it at all to mess with peoples minds. I'll say you didn't use it because I can't hear the pitch correction thing.

 

Do I win a prize now?

[Philter]

 

Anderton, That is sick!! Why do you think it needs a bass?

 

 

It will be even cooler with bass. What a great idea for a cover and I love the style. I'm not guessing anything.

[cooterbrown]

The harmony vocals sound like that awful effect on the Boss BR-1600...all those fuzzy, stretchy artifacts are loud and clear, even through the crash of guitars. Drums...if they aren't canned/programmed, then sombody knows how to simulate that mechanical feel very well, indeed.

The guitar sounds are kind of digitally-harsh, but I can take an old Rivera M-100 amp, and get that sound, as well.

So it's either all real or all processed...it's not hard to make real instruments sound that bad, and it is just as easy to make fake instruments sound very good.

[Eddie]

At 1:42 the ghost of Buddy Holly sang in a spooky manner, right after "the words I want to..." and then on the word "near"

 

I would say you used:

 

Real drums. My musical knowledge is very limited, and gets worse when it comes to drums, but the virtual drums I've used/heard sound more polished. I also get very nice variations and dynamics with Ocean Way Drums and Drum Masters.

 

Amp simulators, without Recabinet http://recabi.net/site/

 

3 or 4 guitars?

 

I listened with headphones, after 2 glasses of Cabernet Sauvignon. I seldom drink!

[Anderton]

Well, no one is doing very well on figuring out what's going on with pitch correction, so let's make it easier and - at the risk of great personal embarrassment - do soloed vocal clips with nothing but a little reverb for processing.

 

The clips are A, B, C, D, and E. Your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to point out which words/phrases (if any) are pitch-corrected. Those who say they can hear pitch correction without fail shouldn't have too much trouble.

 

One hint: When I use correction, I don't always correct to the exact pitch; sometimes I correct to a more "stretched" pitch. So, you can't assume that just because something is in tune it's corrected, or because something isn't in tune it's not corrected. All that matters here is if you can hear timbral shifts that would indicate correction is being used, and if so, where these shifts occur.

 

Listening back I don't think this is going to be particularly easy, but it should be easier without the processing, doubling, and harmonies. Good luck!

[Ernest Buckley]

Hey Craig,

 

Guitars

SansAmp throughout. The first 1:20 sounds like two different guitar parts.

 

Drums

Most of the drums sound programmed but those fills sound played.

 

Vocals

Good job if you used AT. I listened to all the files and its hard to tell so bravo on that.

 

btw, I like the rough feel you`re giving it but the efx are a little over the top for my taste.

[cooterbrown]

Well, no one is doing very well on figuring out what's going on with pitch correction, so let's make it easier and - at the risk of great personal embarrassment - do soloed vocal clips with nothing but a little reverb for processing. The clips are A, B, C, D, and E. Your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to point out which words/phrases (if any) are pitch-corrected. Those who say they can hear pitch correction without fail shouldn't have too much trouble. One hint: When I use correction, I don't always correct to the exact pitch; sometimes I correct to a more "stretched" pitch. So, you can't assume that just because something is in tune it's corrected, or because something isn't in tune it's not corrected. All that matters here is if you can hear timbral shifts that would indicate correction is being used, and if so, where these shifts occur. Listening back I don't think this is going to be particularly easy, but it should be easier without the processing, doubling, and harmonies. Good luck!

 

Clip E either needed some tuning on the ends of those lines, or you purposely detuned them...that's all that sonded "wrong", to me.

[Lee Flier]

Well I'm not one of those who claims it's impossible to do pitch correction without it being audible. Like I said in the other thread, I know it is possible - I've even done it. But I still have other problems with using it.

[Lee Flier]

OK, I've now listened on real speakers.

 

One hint: When I use correction, I don't always correct to the exact pitch; sometimes I correct to a more "stretched" pitch.

 

Yeah, I hear quite a lot of that going on especially with the low notes at the end of each line (I think that was what I was hearing last night that sounded like flanging). And actually where I hear it most is on the very first two lines of the song, ("tell me how you FEEL..."), which aren't included in your soloed clips. The soloed clips still have a lot of reverb on them, which of course has artifacts of its own that may be hard to distinguish from pitch correction, but in general I don't hear any obvious artifacts of pitch correction.

 

One thing I have been reminded of, in listening to this song, is that if someone has no objection to using pitch correction, that person probably routinely uses so much processing anyway that a few pitch corrected notes are the least of its problems. I know you're not going to take this personally Craig, because we both know that we just have different aesthetics... but I really like the arrangement you did on the song, I can hear what you're going for and I think it could be really cool... but because of the production it just leaves me absolutely cold. Hardly anything about it sounds as if it was done by a flesh and blood human.

 

Ah well. Time to get out in the garden for a bit and dig in some real, unprocessed dirt.

[Philter]

One thing I have been reminded of, in listening to this song, is that if someone has no objection to using pitch correction, that person probably routinely uses so much processing anyway that a few pitch corrected notes are the least of its problems.

 

 

Odd. Mainly I've been reminded that even people who claim to be able to hear tuning, can't. The horse has left the barn.

 

Let's continue talking about horses. The Luddite approach to recording makes as much sense as insisting only cars with standard transmissions be allowed to compete in the Kentucky Derby.

 

I think at the bottom line a lot of people are bothered by the idea that a singer can now pull a fast one and somehow fool the audience. But from my own experience singing, I've learned that accurate pitch is way down the list on challenges to master. A talented singer will be so in control of pitch that the things they achieve with it are far removed from the realm of "pitch correction." Autotune can help marginal singers sound more presentable, just like reverb makes marginal tone sound presentable, or an amplifier can make marginal guitar technique sound presentable. None of them teach you to play the instrument. None of them will make a marginal performer sound like a great performer. It's foolish to concern yourself with the techniques used to pass off marginal performers as presentable ones. How about worry about the steps between presentable and great instead.... All this focus on low standards might give people the wrong impression.

[Lee Flier]

Odd. Mainly I've been reminded that even people who claim to be able to hear tuning, can't.

 

I've never claimed (as I've said several times now) that pitch correction can't be done in a way that I can't hear. I do claim that I hear it way more often than I think it's intended to be heard, so I'm obviously more sensitive to it than many people are, but I have never claimed it's impossible to do it inaudibly, and have even done that myself. But in any case... whether or not I can hear it in the end result is NOT the main problem I have with pitch correction. I don't know how many times I need to say this or why it's seemingly so hard to get this point across.

 

Let's continue talking about horses. The Luddite approach to recording makes as much sense as insisting only cars with standard transmissions be allowed to compete in the Kentucky Derby.

 

LOL... OK... way to miss the point. And it doesn't make someone a "Luddite" if they don't want to use a few new pieces of technology. I guess anybody who plays acoustic guitar and isn't interested in playing electric is a "Luddite" too eh?

 

Autotune can help marginal singers sound more presentable, just like reverb makes marginal tone sound presentable, or an amplifier can make marginal guitar technique sound presentable. None of them teach you to play the instrument. None of them will make a marginal performer sound like a great performer.

 

Never said they would. So far you're throwing out a whole bunch of straw men here.

 

It's foolish to concern yourself with the techniques used to pass off marginal performers as presentable ones.

 

Actually, it's not foolish. Because as long as people see these techniques as being more effective at doing that than they really are, we'll continue to be inundated with poor and soulless recordings that people do because they think they can cut costs, save time, whatever it is they quite obviously think they're doing.

 

If this weren't an issue, I wouldn't bother saying anything. Really.

[UstadKhanAli]

Odd. Mainly I've been reminded that even people who claim to be able to hear tuning, can't. The horse has left the barn. Let's continue talking about horses. The Luddite approach to recording makes as much sense as insisting only cars with standard transmissions be allowed to compete in the Kentucky Derby. I think at the bottom line a lot of people are bothered by the idea that a singer can now pull a fast one and somehow fool the audience. But from my own experience singing, I've learned that accurate pitch is way down the list on challenges to master. A talented singer will be so in control of pitch that the things they achieve with it are far removed from the realm of "pitch correction." Autotune can help marginal singers sound more presentable, just like reverb makes marginal tone sound presentable, or an amplifier can make marginal guitar technique sound presentable. None of them teach you to play the instrument. None of them will make a marginal performer sound like a great performer. It's foolish to concern yourself with the techniques used to pass off marginal performers as presentable ones. How about worry about the steps between presentable and great instead.... All this focus on low standards might give people the wrong impression.

 

 

 

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showpost.php?p=39893981&postcount=113

 

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showpost.php?p=39895556&postcount=124

 

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showpost.php?p=39893759&postcount=109

[Anderton]

Lee has indeed said pitch correction can be done transparently, and I think I've proven with those soloed clips that it's possible. Her objections (correct me if I wrong, Lee) is that the way many, if not most, people use it is as a crutch to compensate for singers who can't sing and/or because they find it more expedient than doing punches or other techniques that don't result in audible artifacts (assuming, of course, that the singer matches the performance well enough that you can't hear a transition to the punched area).

 

I don't dispute that, I don't think anyone would. What I DO dispute is dismissing the technology because it's misused (I'm not saying Lee does or does not dismiss the technology as a whole, but TIME magazine certainly did, which was where this all started).

 

So, I think I've shown once and for all that it is possible to do pitch correction without obvious artifacts (FYI the weird sound on the word "feel" and other ends of lines is not pitch correction. It's because the level [not pitch] of my voice dropped off at the end of lines as those low notes are at the lower limit of my range. Vocal Rider brought them up to the same level as the other notes, which emphasizes the weirdness in my vocal chords at that pitch). Therefore dismissing pitch correction because "it inherently sounds bad" is not a valid reason for dismissal.

 

The next issue, then, is whether I'm using pitch correction because I'm lazy, or using it as a crutch.

 

Dealing with the crutch thing first, I know how to sing, and I know how to sing in tune...most of the time. For those times when I fluff a note, I have several options on how to fix it, and I use whichever is appropriate. I define appropriate as "creating the highest quality results, and with quality being equal among different methods, choosing the one that does the fix in the least amount of time."

 

For long phrases punching, redoing, or taking a different take from a comped vocal creates the highest quality results in the least amount of time.

 

For individual notes, pitch correction creates the highest quality results in the least amount of time.

 

Now, just because pitch correction is the quickest, most efficient way to do fixes in particular circumstances doesn't mean I'm lazy. I don't do punches under those conditions because it's more time-consuming and runs the risk of not sounding as good.

 

So, the conclusion to all this from my end is: People who want to use pitch correction for something other than an effect should spend the time to learn how to use it well, include it in a mix of techniques to get the best possible vocal, and be well-versed enough in those techniques to be able to make intelligent decisions about which is the right technique to use in a particular situation.

 

I don't see how anyone can really disagree with anything I've said here, but feel free to comment if you do.

[Anderton]

Hardly anything about it sounds as if it was done by a flesh and blood human.

 

Well, after the last of the "I can hear pitch correction" people weigh in, we'll find out just how much was or wasn't done by flesh and blood humans I think the results may surprise people.