Sample playback evolution?

[iGirl]

Hi guys, apologies for a cross post, but I was redirected to this forum from the Drums area as it's more directed towards technology.

I've avoided the keyboard player's area deliberately as this query is aimed towards LOW tech - if that's possible.

 

Having worked in tech and management for major keyboard/sampler/synth and pro audio/MI manufacturers myself for many years (waves to old friends here) - I know most of what is possible - but I'm looking for info on new, lower cost, easier to use developments in hardware sample playback units for beginnners... (again...low tech).

 

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I recently gave my 17 year old son a DK10 (I had saved in storage for him) and am hoping to get him into something that will allow loading of samples to a hardware player and assigning them to different note numbers to be able to use with the KAT.

 

I retired from the music business over 10 years ago and am expert level in electronics/MIDI, but not in touch with what's out there today. In the old days - if you wanted to play samples with a hardware box - you had to have a sampler - period. Is that still the case?

 

I guess what I'm thinking there *should* be by now, is a simple box one can load WAV or similar into via USB, and individually assign them to trigger on 0-127, in assignable banks of 128 at a time. 128x1 MIDI channel - or 128x16 MIDI channels to get fancier. Of course velocity sensitivity/curves, effects, and velocity switching would be even cooler, but then we're getting deeper into sampler territory.

 

I could just get him a drum machine - but that's so cookie cutter and closed ended. He barely was able to get the MIDI and audio connections straight. LOL But he's young and will learn.

 

Thoughts?

[MikeRivers]

 

I retired from the music business over 10 years ago and am expert level in electronics/MIDI, but not in touch with what's out there today. In the old days - if you wanted to play samples with a hardware box - you had to have a sampler - period. Is that still the case?

 

Sure, but today a "sample player" doesn't have to be a dedicated hardware box. To most people today (particularly the newcomers who don't know that they're playing samples), the term "virtual instrument" is more familiar. The sample library is loaded on to the computer, you create a MIDI track, and then you "plug in" a virtual instrument which plays the samples in accordance with those MIDI commands.

 

The good news is that the hardware and samples are cheaper than they used to be. The bad news is that it's not just a simple box into which you plug a MIDI cable on one end and an amplifier on the other. There are a number of stand-alone sample player applications, but most people use VST (the most common protocol, developed by Steinberg) plug-ins to a digital audio workstation (DAW) program. You probably would call it a "sequencer" and some still do.

 

I could just get him a drum machine - but that's so cookie cutter and closed ended. He barely was able to get the MIDI and audio connections straight.

 

Both Roland and Alesis (and probably others) make electronic drum sets that have a hardware box with built-in samples that sound mighty good. No computer required. You probably know enough to figure out if your existing triggers will talk to the "brain."

 

Do I know you? I'm not afraid to use my real name here, and I don't have an iAnything.

[iGirl]

 

Sure, but today a "sample player" doesn't have to be a dedicated hardware box. To most people today (particularly the newcomers who don't know that they're playing samples), the term "virtual instrument" is more familiar.

 

 

Thanks, but I was hoping for a small hardware box specifically. Setting up a computer for a drum set is possibly easier to work, but not so able to take a beating or go on the road.

 

 

The good news is that the hardware and samples are cheaper than they used to be.

 

 

I've kind of seen that.

For a drummer it would be great to make it simple to instantly trigger WAV files direct from a HDD playback box. So it could be anything traditional like TR909 sounds, a full latin kit, or Simmons, or custom recorded(sampled) sounds like Keith Moon, John Bonham, your dog barking. LOL

Ya - I just described a sampler. ha ha

 

I'd go right out and get him a K2000R/K2500R but the learning curve is high - I loved it - many rocket scientists did too. ROFL

 

 

The bad news is that it's not just a simple box into which you plug a MIDI cable on one end and an amplifier on the other. There are a number of stand-alone sample player applications, but most people use VST (the most common protocol, developed by Steinberg) plug-ins to a digital audio workstation (DAW) program. You probably would call it a "sequencer" and some still do.

 

 

I owned (sequencer) Performer, Version 1.0 ha ha - made it all the way with them to DP5 (DAW).

 

 

Roland and Alesis (and probably others) make electronic drum sets that have a hardware box with built-in samples that sound mighty good. No computer required.

 

 

But you have to buy their kit and can't do anything custom - then it's just a fancy drum machine....maybe with more/better presets. In this case - he's to add electronics on an acoustic set via the KAT head, that's all. OK, I think I'm getting the picture. Thanks again!

[Philter]

Technology has kind of not moved in the direction you're hoping to find.

 

If you want to really get your kid on the track to being current with music technology, get him a laptop, an audio/MIDI interface, and some software. You talk about cookie cutter and closed ended, and a computer is the opposite of that. Computers show up on stage all the time now. If you're really concerned about durability, build or have built a rack mountable PC. That will be as durable as anything else you can stick in a rack.

 

You have to get him onto the computer. There's no avoiding it if you really want him to grow as an electronic musician. The best thing is that in a year when he's looking for the next weapon, he'll figure out that's in the computer somehow, too.

 

If you're deadset on hardware, I guess check out the Akai MPC 500. He will certainly have fun with it, anyway.

[Anderton]

I'm with Philter. I've used laptops in live performance for about 8 years, and would not go back to traditional hardware. There's sooo much you can do with inexpensive software and even a not-that-expensive laptop.

 

And I also agree with the Akai option, they make great boxes for beats. Maybe not as flexible as you want, but built for the road. OTOH you can get NI's Maschine with it's MPC-like controller, load the software on the computer, and go to town

[techristian]

Don't be intimidated by computers. Hey, look at me ! I'm a drummer and I use computers !

 

Dan

[Extreme Mixing]

I'm not surprised the the drummers sent you over here. You are truly insulting to them as a group of human beings. You have also made clear that your son is a pretty dim bulb in your eyes. Life must be difficult for him.

 

A computer would be the best way to go. If he doesn't already have one, he should. At 17, most young people are showing their parents things they never dreamed possible with computers. I know mine do. Of course, I made sure they had a computer that belonged to THEM, since they were 10, or so. Of course, it has to be one that they can make some mistakes on. I had to reinstall the operating system a couple of times, but they got it. Not exposing your son to technology is nearly a crime in this day and age, and shows a total lack of insight on your part.

 

Oh...sorry. I forgot. Your son is the dim witted drummer. But maybe you should think that through again, as well.

 

Steve

[MikeRivers]

 

For a drummer it would be great to make it simple to instantly trigger WAV files direct from a HDD playback box. So it could be anything traditional like TR909 sounds, a full latin kit, or Simmons, or custom recorded(sampled) sounds like Keith Moon, John Bonham, your dog barking. LOL Ya - I just described a sampler. ha ha

 

Yup. But unfortunately, the people who worked with samplers 20 years ago, in the studio or on stage, are now using computers rather than hardware boxes (with or without black-and-whites). It's a mature technology and it's a whole lot less expensive than dedicated hardware. But I get that you get the problem - it's not an integrated solution, you have to be the system engineer. You need to choose the computer, choose the software, choose the sample set(s), choose the interface between the computer and the drum triggers, choose the interface between the computer and the audio system, gather all of the necessary cables, and remember how to hook it up when you have to move the system. But people really can do that, even drummers.

 

Unless you left the industry 25 years ago, I'm sure that you recognize that nobody makes anything that's simple any more. The manufacturers create the demand for more, more, more, and then they fill that demand with more complex, but also more capable products. You can't go back.

 

Today's version of your dream machine is probably the Muse Receptor 2. It's a hardware box that's dedicated to running VST plug-ins (of which there are several drum sets). Not just instruments, it can be an equalizer, a compressor, or a reverb unit with the appropriate VST plug-in. So it's out there, but for your purpose, it's overkill, and you probably don't want to pay $2000 for a drum kit that you can turn down if it's too loud.

 

I'm right there with you, though. I was just at an A/D/A converter shootout last night and the gal from Apogee kept asking me what computer and software I use, and I was trying to learn about the Symphony as a stand-alone converter for use with my hardware recorder. (it's too expensive, too, but I can still learn about it)

[iGirl]

 

Don't be intimidated by computers. Hey, look at me ! I'm a drummer and I use computers ! Dan

 

 

Thanks Dan, Craig and Philter. It's not intimidation - as I said earlier - they are actually easier - but maybe less road worthy. No doubt however, even a lowly $200 PC has way more processing power than any dedicated hardware box.

 

As a side note - what about saving presets and doing programs changes from a pedal into (keymapping) software in live performance? Surely something does that, but it's not a software feature I ever saw in the 80s-90s.

 

The Maschine and MPC 500 both also look quite interesting and - you're right - fun!

 

Thanks.

[iGirl]

 

I'm not surprised the the drummers sent you over here. You are truly insulting to them as a group of human beings. You have also made clear that your son is a pretty dim bulb in your eyes. Life must be difficult for him. Oh...sorry. I forgot. Your son is the dim witted drummer. But maybe you should think that through again, as well. Steve

 

 

Nice. So looking for a roadworthy hardware sample player somehow insults all drummers? Maybe my son is learning disabled? But I don't call him names regardless.

[iGirl]

It's a mature technology and it's a whole lot less expensive than dedicated hardware. Today's version of your dream machine is probably the Muse...

 

I'm sensing that the death of the hardware sampler has happened over the last 10+ years - not totally, but certainly mostly. I saw the Muse, but, yes, the price is crazy - so based on the help and direction from here, for us, the plan is probably to look at a combo of hardware (Maschine/MPC type boxes) and laptop. (Or a "vintage" sampler module that's really cheap might be worth a look as well, but not "up to date" - nothing wrong with being a little retro however!).

 

Thanks again everyone, almost all helpful constructive responses!

[dahkter]

Hi iGirl,

 

IMO the MPC500 is limited, I would go for the MPC1000. It has a much better screen, more real time functionality and is still a portable size. It also has a lot of room for growth potential. You can get it used for approx. $500.

 

There is a third party OS that gives it tons of new functions available here: http://www7a.biglobe.ne.jp/~mpc1000/

if you go for the mpc1000 I would recommend you purchase that upgrade.

 

I've had mine for 8 years and still prefer it to making music on the computer.

 

BTW - as far as everyone saying hardware is dead, there are still some big names (Kanye West/Dr. Dre/DJ Premier/Swizz Beatz) using the MPC as the main sequencer of their studio for the feel, immediacy and ease of creating a groove. Of course it's being tracked into a Pro Tools Rig and often overlapped with other elements ITB, however it's still a great tool for getting down ideas.

[Jeff da Weasel]

Indeed. As Dahkter says, contrary to some of the posts above, there are still plenty of people who prefer taking dedicated boxes on the road than purposing a computer for these things.

 

You have to understand that so many people on this forum tend to look at the cutting edge of things, they ignore the practicality of other options. While hardware boxes may be pass