Surprise: Amp Sims Really DO Sound Like Amps...If They're Miked

[MikeRivers]

What's "miked"? Is that something to do with shunning social networks?

It's something like miced, only not as cheesy.

[yump]

nice topic, i have line6 pod farm with some extra bundles.

 

i think about 78 amp heads and a bunch of cabs and mikes to play with.

 

my fave is the ac30 vox sim, when i use a single coil like a strat or tele.

 

another good head sim is the plexi jump lead and mississippi criminal, nice for humbuckers.

 

actually have so much stuff/sims that i could never tweak out the best combo for every guitar.

 

i do have real stomps i like to use though with the amp sims, they sound better than the sims, imo.

 

amplitube x-gear is real nice for my acoustic and i've tried all pod farm! lol.

 

but i am a bedroom player, so having a ux-2 is just fine for me.

you guys that play out, i thought i heard john mccloughlin (sp) used a pc for effects on stage.

 

the thing about that would be you can hit one switch and get a whole different chain of effects.

but hell, with the whole band blazin away, who is gonna hear anything different?

 

having grown up with stuff i gave away that people would pay good money for today, i'm fine and bummed. (can't afford that stuff now)

 

i know these things can't compete with the real thing but clever people can catch some decent tones.

[Cirrus]

What's "miked"? Is that something to do with shunning social networks?

Microphone is abbreviated to Mic. But Mic'd is a bit awkward, so people tend to write Miked - easier on the eyes, and easier to work out how to pronounce if you're reading it.

I used the Mic to Mike up the cat.

[Lee Flier]

But I thought that amp sims were supposed to "emulate air" too?

 

Yes, an amp sim sounds closer to an amp if the amp is close miked, and/or if you blast the sim through a speaker to get some real air moving. But really, how happy you are with the sound is also going to depend on what type of sound you're going for (high gain amps seem to be easier to simulate than clean tones or more complex distortion), what else is in the chain (if you have a crapload of effects pedals you're not hearing the amp much anyway), how much latency there is (which affects performance) and so on. For me, a sim doesn't work, except in the tiny percentage of instances where I want a little "coloration" and am going for a sound I can't get with a real amp. I'd never use a sim to simply try to sound (or feel) like a tube amp. It doesn't.

[Kotch]

But I thought that amp sims were supposed to "emulate air" too?

 

Well, most of mine do -- the exceptions are a couple of very minimalist VSTs I sometimes use. But all of my external-hardware amp-sims have a reverb in their effects section, even my Marshall AVT that doesn't otherwise have an effects section. One has an "ambience" effect that just gives you the early reflections, and that really does work like an add-more-air knob. I turn all those reverbs off for recording, because I prefer to send everything through one reverb on a bus.

[UstadKhanAli]

I think *some* amp sims emulate the changing of microphone placement, but some don't. And I agree with Lee: for the most part, if you are comparing a distorted amp simulation to a close-miced (miked, mic'd ) amp, you can get really darn close. If it's a really good amp sim, I personally cannot tell the difference with any regularity. It's when you start pulling those mics away, doing cleaner stuff, using omni mics, different combinations of mics, getting more room reflection, whatever that it starts falling apart. Hence, Craig's original post.

 

I'm glad amp sims exist. I like using them to eff up some stuff in my DAW (which are, typically, not guitars! ). They're handy in simulating stuff when I gig as well, such as with the Vox ToneLab SE that I mentioned earlier. And they can be handy when you want a wider variety of sounds than your trusty tube amp allows. It's all good, and I'm glad it's all there. However, about 90% of the time, I'm happiest when I am micing (miking) my tube amp in a room. I think it sounds considerably more glorious and beautiful and real and emotional than anything else, and that's what turns my crank. As always, YMMV.

[UstadKhanAli]

 

Well, most of mine do -- the exceptions are a couple of very minimalist VSTs I sometimes use. But all of my external-hardware amp-sims have a reverb in their effects section, even my Marshall AVT that doesn't otherwise have an effects section. One has an "ambience" effect that just gives you the early reflections, and that really does work like an add-more-air knob. I turn all those reverbs off for recording, because I prefer to send everything through one reverb on a bus.

 

 

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the simulation for microphone placement in an amp sim different from adding reverb? Or no?

[Kotch]

 

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the simulation for microphone placement in an amp sim different from adding reverb? Or no?

 

 

Maybe, but as far as I'm concerned, tweaking the reverb has a bigger effect than mic placement simulation on making something sound natural.

 

After all, when you play through a tube amp in a room, you can't not hear the room. I think eliminating the room by using an amp sim (and apparently, by close micing as well) accounts for much of the "wrongness" people perceive.

[Kotch]

Another thing is, there is no one tube amp sound. I think that's one reason why people keep failing the real amp vs sim AB tests. Every amp sounds different, and different guitars sound different through it. Every guitar player sounds different with the same instrument into the same amp. And that's before you even touch any of the knobs.

 

I get impatient with these kind of debates (compare my join date to my post count), because who the heck cares what gear anyone is using? Does it sound good? That's the real question. Back last century trying to record my songs was a pain in the neck, because I was always struggling to get a decent sound out of my gear. But getting a good sound out of gear designed in the last five years or so is pretty much effortless in comparison.

 

What the heck does anyone have to complain about? We're living in a golden age for recording.

[roomjello]

Something that doesn't seem to get mentioned in these amp sim threads is that amp sims are fantastic learning tools.

 

By that i mean as a guitarist who doesn't own every amp ever made popular, you get a chance to hear what each model is all about mostly.

The character of the dirt, the gain structure, the different tone controls effect on the amp etc etc.

Once you hear them enough you start to say "hey i know that sound" you try different pick ups through them and say "hey that amp sounds better with a single coil".

It's very exciting actually. But then after that, it's time to buy real amps.

[Anderton]

Well, as I said early on the point of this thread wasn't to rehash sims vs. tubes, each does its own thing better than the other. To re-iterate, my point was that some characteristics I don't like about amp sims are IMHO due to being too slavish about emulating the sound of a miked amp, and that emulations are more satisfying if you don't try to emulate the amp, but instead place a premium on the experience of the amp in the room (and no, I don't think "air" is enough to cover all those bases), as well as the interaction between guitar and amp (one reason why some people really dig the Eleven Rack, they paid a lot of attention to that)...and probably some other things I'm forgetting

 

One of my very favorite "amp sims" isn't an amp sim per se, it's the McDSP Chrome Tone. It doesn't claim to emulate any particular amp, rather, it's some guy's idea of what an amp should sound like, done in software. As a result, it's successful at what it does...you end up dialing in a sound, rather than wondering whether it does or does not sound like, say, an AC30.

 

One thing this whole experience has taught me is how better to mic guitar amps. I'd never tried disconnecting three out of the four speakers in a cab, but wow, what a difference when miking the remaining speaker - you get the cab characteristics without the phase issues of leakage from the other speakers...a very "pure" kind of sound. Does it sound like a "real" Marshall stack? I dunno. But it sounds great

[Brian @ IK]

This addresses one of the big misunderstandings of ampsims and what they are for. If you want the sound of an amp live in the room, then you're going to have to bypass the cab section and go straight out from the amp model into a guitar amp and listen to it live. But if you want to record a track of the guitar amp, then it is going to by its very nature have to sound like a recorded guitar amp. A huge guitar cab is going to sound much smaller in a mic through stereo speakers, by necessity. The very act of recording a mic on a guitar cab defangs it. But we are used to the sound of this in recorded music. For some reason, some people expect to hear a full Marshall stack out of their desktop speaker. It's not ever going to happen. But we can give you the sound of listening to a really good recording of that full Marshall stack through your desktop speakers. The key to getting the best sound in an ampsim is pairing the right mic model for the cab, and finding the sweet spot in the mic placement field, just as you would do with the hardware counterparts live in your studio. The same techniques and limitations apply here. Not every mic sounds good on every cab, and where you place it is as important as anything else. Likewise, in an ampsim like AmpliTube 3, you will get the same results as you would if you were doing the same thing with the hardware.

[Kotch]

Good point. I got an amp sim in the first place because I wanted to listen to my guitar through the same monitors I was recording with. That makes it a lot easier to actually hear what's being recorded, so I can tweak settings and write patches. I don't really want amp/cab sim stuff for playing live though. When I started playing out, I went and bought an amp. My Vox Tonelab still goes to gigs with me, but on my gig patches I've got the sim stuff turned off and I'm using it for an effects unit and volume pedal only.

[yump]

i love real amps, so organic compared to sims but for time and money,

 

no comparison.

 

like i said, i don't play out so it is not too much of a problem to find some diff tones on the sims, just maybe too frikin many!

 

for the longest time i had a twin reverb, tele. or older tele and bassman 50 with 2-15's, open cab.

 

then in 2008 got the line6 setup, ux-2 geared for recording on pc. playing by myself.

 

recording in a studio sounds like the sims, live recording with real amps and space will be different, i have even used the mic on the monitors to get some ambiance on guitar parts.

 

sounds good on paper! jury still out on that one, not very skilled.

[Brian @ IK]

Good point. I got an amp sim in the first place because I wanted to listen to my guitar through the same monitors I was recording with. That makes it a lot easier to actually hear what's being recorded, so I can tweak settings and write patches. I don't really want amp/cab sim stuff for playing live though. When I started playing out, I went and bought an amp. My Vox Tonelab still goes to gigs with me, but on my gig patches I've got the sim stuff turned off and I'm using it for an effects unit and volume pedal only.

That's the best part of ampsims. What you hear is what you get! I remember miking guitars in my studio some years ago, and the direct monitoring sounded great, like a thick, juicy steak. But when I hit playback to hear what I had gotten, it sounded more like beef jerky!

I also had several tracks that ended up sounding quite different as the mix built up, and not for the better. Often I wished I could go back and give my amp a little more or less overdrive to distinguish it in the mix better. Now, of course, that's no problem. You can completely change your mind on the amp, the cab, the effects, the mic, or even the mic placement with AmpliTube 3. We now have the near infinite ability to fine tune our guitar tone inside the mix.

[Kotch]

Even with the amp sim, I still have to be careful.

 

Finding a good guitar tone is not easy by yourself. I can dial in a setting that's sounds nice and bright and snappy -- play it back and it's mud. The bright, snappy bit was the sound of the strings as I was playing, not the recorded sound. Mind you, it sounds kind of interesting when you have a mic on it and you get the amp sim and the live guitar sound, like this:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cmeq2_1o2dQ

 

That was entirely accidental. I didn't even realize the guitar would be so loud in mic.

[Eddie]

 

I had one of the first line 6 ax2's. I used it for a couple years... ...Use real amps people. The world needs you on this.

 

 

I've never liked the sound of Line6. To me it has always sounded thin, sterile, artificial. If I were to compare any of the tube amps I've played against a Line6 modeler or amp, I would choose my tube amps.

That being said, I sold most of my tube amps and kept a H&K zenTera. I liked not only its sounds, but the feel it provides. A guy who builds tube amps actually helped me in my decision to purchase the zenTera.

Another amp that I liked was a Vox (Valvetronix?). The Marshall sounds were really good on that one.

 

I appreciate what Line6 has done. My first experience with software modeling came via Amp Farm in the late 90s, and I have POD Farm 1 and 2. I can't remember when was the last time I used it. I visited the Line6 page to get presets and backing tracks (which are superb). Tomorrow I'll give the presets a try, and chances are that I'll end up creating the sounds using GTR, Guitar Rig, or TH2.

 

I understand that the newest Line6 stuff sounds much better, but I have no experience with it.

[coyote-1]

This. Emphatically.

Moving air is part of the acoustic phenomena of great guitar sounds. Still...why not just plug into an old Princeton or AC30, crank it up, and record that, instead of having to micromange a sim?

Especially since amp sims often introduce audible artifacts, particularly at the end of decaying notes. If you're playing a blizzard of notes, you might not notice - but if you're playing in a David Gilmour-esque style, you will notice it.

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

I think GTR 2 sounds best of all software guitar amps, the Line6 stuff is also usable.

[Anderton]

This. Emphatically. Especially since amp sims often introduce audible artifacts, particularly at the end of decaying notes. If you're playing a blizzard of notes, you might not notice - but if you're playing in a David Gilmour-esque style, you will notice it.

 

Sometimes I can get better sounds with amp sims than I can get from miking an amp , particularly because I don't have a huge array of amps...I simply can't make my existing non-Marhsall amps sound like a Marshall, but I can make an amp sim sound like a reecorded Marshall. But, as I've mentioned before, I have techniques that I feel are essential to making amp sims sound good. Out of the box, they generally don't cut it.

 

Regarding Line 6 - every time I get a Line 6 product to review, I think they've "lost the recipe" and that it doesn't sound as good as previous products. Then I tweak the presets! I think that my playing style is 100% opposite from who designs the presets - I use .010, not .008 or .009; play with a thumb pick, not a flat pick; and do more rhythm/block chord playing than single note leads. Often, just pulling back on the Drive control does what I need, then adding the parametric at the end to get rid of resonances is the final touch.

 

Amp sims are like synths - you have to program them. But I find that I have to "program" when recording real amps in the sense of choosing the right mic, the right mic placement, adding room mics, creating an image, etc. Using an amp sim "out of the box" is like miking an amp by picking a mic at random and sticking it, y'know, somewhere in the vicinity of the speaker.

 

Recording guitars is an art, whether you use sims, amps, or a combination of the two. One of my favorite techniques remains miking a physical amp, but also taking the effects loop send and sending that to a sim's power amp/cabinet. This gives a huge stereo image, and a nice complementary sound. I wrote an article about this called "Mix and Match Tube Amps with Virtual Cabinets," which includes tons of audio examples. I think anyone who thinks only sims, or only physical amps, are the answer will find this interesting.

[Eddie]

 

...But I find that I have to "program" when recording real amps in the sense of choosing the right mic, the right mic placement, adding room mics, creating an image, etc. Using an amp sim "out of the box" is like miking an amp by picking a mic at random and sticking it, y'know, somewhere in the vicinity of the speaker...

 

 

Exactly!

Instead of real mics and amps, now I select options from one or a few modelers. Once I get some good sounds I'll just save them or write the signal path down. I may use an amp from TH2, effects from a Boss GT-10 or Waves GTR, a Line6 acoustic simulator, choose one or more impulse responses, use a rotary speaker from Guitar Rig, etc. Or I can have my signal feeding different amps and effects simultaneously and blend those sounds, like a digital version of SRV's multiple amp setup.

And usually, after the initial hours or days of experimentation things become easier and faster to do.

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

Recording guitars is an art, whether you use sims, amps, or a combination of the two.

 

 

Well, we record the guitar most often clean, then I leave the room and let the guitarist makes the amp programming, he also EQs the guitar in the mix, then his job is done. And I use GTR on many stringed instruments, I mean the Chinese heard how a Guzheng sound acoustically recorded, not we redesign that sound.

[monstermaker]

I've been meaning to mike up Gearbox. One thing for sure is using sims and Sonar X1 has cut my setup time to nothing and I'm creating more because of it. Moving air is the secret to great sound I'm sure.

[Anderton]

I've been meaning to mike up Gearbox. One thing for sure is using sims and Sonar X1 has cut my setup time to nothing and I'm creating more because of it. Moving air is the secret to great sound I'm sure.

 

Of all the amp sims I've tried, I've been able to get some convincing "moving air" sounds with Peavey's ReValver. I haven't figured out the recipe for doing this; just every now and then when I'm fooling around, I'll get "that" sound.

 

What makes it more confusing is that of course, it's not moving air. But it just sounds like the speaker is "straining" the way a real one would.

 

Like I said...all amp sims are different

[KHAN]

Amplifier simulators work for people who

:phil: