40% Tax on Goods Imported into the USA - What would it mean for guitars?

[Kap'n]

Looks like somebody already beat them to it:



I don't know which countries fall into Column 2.

[adorduan]

Location as well -- I believe people in the south have more pride in the work they do than jaded northerners -

 

 

{censored} you and your stereotypes.

[Grantus]

And here I thought Southerners were a bunch of tobacco-chewing, pot-bellied, toothless, eight-grade dropouts. And that's just the ladies.

 

Kidding!

[bal704]

You speak of the hypothetical world where pure free trade exists (and pure capitalism etc). Yes, Every country everywhere has always had some self-interest they protect. Every country you mention had (and has) tariffs, but realized quickly they would kill their economy if they continued at stupid levels. Even China is starting to realize it. History really doesn't tell a different story.

 

 

Yes, protectionism never works. Except... Except that no nation has ever successfully industrialized except behind substantial tariff barriers. England, the United States, France, Germany, Japan, South Korea all maintained significant tariffs during the period of their industrialization; they shifted to "free trade" (always more practiced than preached--note the massive subsidies that continue to sustain agriculture in almost all these nations) only once they had become dominant industrial powers--and "free trade" was a way to bludgeon trading partners into opening their markets. In recent decades, China's massive industrialization has occurred behind enormous barriers to market access, though often in forms a little more subtle than tariffs (currency manipulation, discriminatory rule-making, demands for "technology exchange"). Economists insist that protectionism never works. History tells a different story.

 

[ihavenofish]

Looks like somebody already beat them to it: I don't know which countries fall into Column 2.

cuba and north korea.

thats a good thing to point out though. 40% isnt a tarrif its effectively trade sanctions.

[ihavenofish]

Well, this is exactly what the US did a few years back over the softwood lumber dispute with Canada. The US was in the wrong and was continually ruled against by the NAFTA people but they just kept doing it anyway. The US government has a history of disregarding agreements when it suits their purposes and not really caring much about the consequences.

 

 

canada was eventually paid back most of the money owed, but thanks to a deal struck by out PM, they ran off with $1b of our money.

[darkmonohue]

 

YEvery country you mention had (and has) tariffs, but realized quickly they would kill their economy if they continued at stupid levels. Even China is starting to realize it. History really doesn't tell a different story.

 

 

Quickly? The US basically maintained high tariffs from 1861 until the 1970s, with a few short periods (e.g. 1913-1922) of reduced levels. In other words, during the entire time the US was becoming the world's leading industrial power. The enormous development China has accomplished in the last two decades occurred behind enormous trade barriers. Maybe they're going to go in a different direction, but I'll believe it when I see it. Sorry, history powerfully refutes free-trade ideology.

[bal704]

If 'free-trade ideology' is such a failure, then why did the US (and every other country) eventually lower/remove these 'high tariffs'? Why not just keep them high (or even make them higher)? Why ruin a winning formula?

 

 

Maybe they're going to go in a different direction, but I'll believe it when I see it. Sorry, history powerfully refutes free-trade ideology.

 

[C-4]

In regards to the OP's original post: I have been telling people on this forum for 4 years to start accumulating the exact gear they want now as things are going to go south fast.
It does take time to get the gear you might hopefully be happy with, but the US is being lead by jack asses who haven't got a {censored}ing clue how to run a successful business, let alone a country.
Causing prices to go through the roof by charging tariffs will not necessarily mean that manufacturing in this country will be able to compete. Why? Because most of the {censored} is made in China to begin with. There isn't much manufacturing here now, and certainly not in affordable guitars, amps, and effects, such as are produced overseas.

I have taken three years to get as close as I can to having the exact gear that I want to use, but I'm still working on it and might need another year. Even if the government does not charge a 40% tarriff on imported goods, it will be some obnoxious amount that will still piss off every one of us to some extent.

I will not be deterred from buying what I want from where I want, and screw the {censored}ing government for thinking they can control where and how much I spend. It might take me longer, but I will not be swayed by the {censored} thought up by those lame bastards in Washington.

[C-4]

Its a horrible idea. American workers are fat, lazy, and don't care - the blue collar working class, unions, and the companies they work for and are involved with care more about themselves (benefits, profits, more money) than producing a good product, their customers, and pride in the job they do. Generally speaking, American craftsmanship sucks and its no wonder factory jobs have been shipped off and remain there. I know that's a broad brush, but it is true. There are some exceptions to the rule. I had some recent dealings with a labor official, just mind blowing what the attitude was. I try to buy American products but frankly, I'm tired of paying more and being burned time after time after time. My fairly new Chrysler Town & Country is a piece of junk, the recent Gibson I had shipped to me had just horrible QC (well documented here in the HGEG). I'm going foreign from here on out I think. Made in America is a thing of the past to me.

 

 

 

I have found this out as well, and have gone thoroughly European in my purchasing, whenever possible. I am much happier now then at any time in my 55 years of playing guitars.

 

I used to be "buy American only". Then I started trying and liking the quality, sound, and service of companies based in western Europe. They are way ahead of america in many ways, not just in music gear. Fender and Gibson still base their products on 50+ year old ideas, even though there are small improvements here and there. It gets old after awhile. I want to see better made gear with improvements that are up-to-date. I am not finding them in america, but I am finding them in Europe. The improvements I am seeking are there, so that is where my money will continue to go, even with tarriffs.

[soundcreation]

the funniest thing about this thread is how many people actually think that trade is free these days.

 

The bottom line is americans have allowed themselves to be sold a bull{censored} idea. Corporations want you to believe that this is "just the natural way of things" when in reality the global "free trade" system is a construct they came up with to increase profits. American companies used their politicians to force open cheap sources of labor while also destroying labor gains at home. From Ronnie the "union buster" Reagan and on it's been the same.

 

US companies that can't compete (and one's that can for that matter) get subsidized heavily by the government. Public funds for private profit. It's the US way.

 

Manufacturing companies exploit the cheap overseas labor and basically give nothing back to the people who actually buy the products because americans were to lazy to stop them. Just for the sake of maximizing profit. And americans lap up the propaganda like puppies drinking milk. Buying into the bull{censored} free market fantasies about the "natural way of the markets".

 

Protectionism exists anywhere companies can't compete.

 

It's pretty {censored}ing hilarious to here the US complain about China unfairly valuing it's currency when the Fed prints money like {censored}ing toilet paper to devalue the US dollar so as to decrease the value of chinese holdings in america. But hypocrisy is old hat for the US so it's nothing new. No wonder the Chinese have basically always said {censored} you to the US when it tries to bully them financially. That works with rinky dink countries but not with one that actually has some clout.

 

Really if anyone were to look at it with any kind of honesty what so ever, it would be seen as the US getting a taste of it's own medicine.

 

Americans have a choice....they can either stand up to the rich and DEMAND decent jobs with good pay to buy all the crap those corporations want them to buy...keep going on the same road and watch the country collapse into a third world nation.

 

One of the BEST LINES EVER!

 

[video=youtube;T-j5XWo1fPI]

[Grantus]

 

In regards to the OP's original post: I have been telling people on this forum for 4 years to start accumulating the exact gear they want now as things are going to go south fast. It does take time to get the gear you might hopefully be happy with, but the US is being lead by jack asses who haven't got a {censored}ing clue how to run a successful business, let alone a country.

 

 

So how are things going to go south, exactly?

 

If things are as bad as you seem to think they are, I'd be worried more about basic food and safety than about whether you have a decent guitar and amp.

[soundcreation]

Watch and learn...

 

seriously...

 

 

 

smoke and mirrors people...

[Verne Andru]

canada was eventually paid back most of the money owed, but thanks to a deal struck by out PM, they ran off with $1b of our money.

 

 

I have little doubt the US Admin knew they were in violation of NAFTA. In fact they were told numerous times by the NAFTA tribunal in the multitude of rulings.

 

But that wasn't the point. The whole game was to put their pigs in the trough and keep others out while the getting was good. This all happened during the money-orgy-sub-prime-housing-boom-that-went-bust and I have little doubt they knew that was a short-term bubble. Bush as much as said so when he lamented, not that the financial crisis happened, but that it happened before he could get the hell out of office so the blame would fall on the next guy.

 

The Fed printed and shipped to their banks billions of paper dollars [effectively creating money out of thin air] in the run up to Y2K. The fear was there would be a run on the banks if a Y2K bug brought down the electronic system, so the paper-money was their "stop-gap" solution. Y2K came and went without a whimper, leaving billions of "new" dollars sitting in the banks [can you say "hyper-inflation?"].

 

Then Bush came to office and someone very high up made the decision not to recall and destroy that paper. Instead it was fed into the economy creating an "easy money" decade very similar to the "Roaring 20's." With more $ than borrowers, and under pressure to keep the money moving, the banks, etc. started giving it away to anyone with a pulse. That's what ultimately brought about the huge inflation in the stock exchanges and the sub-prime bubble that ultimately brought the whole thing down. Not exactly a replay of the crash of '29, but pretty close.

 

What I'm saying is the financial difficulties the US currently finds itself in are the product of purposeful decisions made over the past 10 years mixed with "globalization" and corporate profiteering. They knew what they were doing and it's the people who are paying for it.

 

With the softwood lumber dispute, what they did was effectively keep Canadian products out of the market while it was running super-hot so their own people could pocket huge profits - again at the expense of Joe Average who was/is oblivious to what's going on.

[67mike]

So that would include oil as well???????

LOL!

[Fred Buzz]

What a joke, screw and ban others and make huge profits yourself, yes the ultimate American dream. The land of the free has never heard of free trade. Do you really, and I mean really, believe that if US companies would made more profit, you as the true American laborers would benefit as well? If you think that

[csm]

^^^^^

 

You some kinda frakkin COMMIE?

 

Screwing the workers AND the consumers in the interest of corporate profit is the American way ...

 

And anyone who says different is a LIBRUL TRAITOR!

 

*sorry -- just practicing my rightwing trolling for HCPP*

[DTrane]

I hate the PhD economists from ivy league skools saying how great free trade is. Their colleges get donations from the super rich and will say whatever they want them to say.

Im for equal trade thats on a level playing field. America shouldnt trade with China that has slave labor and no pollution laws. Thats impossible to compete

[facefirst]

If this tax went through, which I doubt it will, I highly doubt it would do good for the consumers. American companies would have less incentive to make a better product, since it's so expensive to buy foreign. Prices would stay up while quality, innovation and R&D would all likely suffer.

[ihavenofish]

I hate the PhD economists from ivy league skools saying how great free trade is. Their colleges get donations from the super rich and will say whatever they want them to say. Im for equal trade thats on a level playing field. America shouldnt trade with China that has slave labor and no pollution laws. Thats impossible to compete

 

 

if you are complaining about chinese goods, theres not much point blaming free trade because the US doesnt have a free trade agreement with china. the US also uses more slave labour than china via the prison system and is usually the one holding the world back with environmental regulations - most of which china has signed.

 

it ultimately boils down to whether a business is viable, and if not, whether that business is valuable enough for the government to prop it up via tarrifs or subsidies. basically an addmission that free market capitalism has failed in that area and the government needs to step in.

 

guitars are not one of the business sectors worth propping up. most things arent. really its just food, some transport and millitary that warrant protectionism because they are key to soveriegnty and security.

[bsman]

jTW0y6kazWM

 

We don't have a specific trade agreement with China, but because we are members of the WTO (as is China) we have essentially abdicated our sovereignty in trade matters to that organization. And, exactly what do the folks above mean by "US-owned" corporations? The (bought and paid for) Supreme Court's Citizens United case notwithstanding, corporations are not people, not citizens and not beholden to governments. I think you'd be shocked to know exactly how many "US" corporations are actually incorporated at some address that is actually a PO box in some Caribbean tax resort....

[darkmonohue]

If 'free-trade ideology' is such a failure, then why did the US (and every other country) eventually lower/remove these 'high tariffs'? Why not just keep them high (or even make them higher)? Why ruin a winning formula?

 

 

Obviously, in what follows, I'm simplifying enormously, but the outlines of the story are:

 

At a certain point, companies in the developed world began aggressively to seek ways to lower the cost of labor. They established factories in areas with low wages. For instance, Fender and Gibson, two American manufacturers of musical instruments, moved production of some products to Japan, Korea, and Mexico (any of this sound familiar?). Given that US companies were now importing their products into the US, high tariffs hurt, rather than benefitted them. Soon, tariffs were lowered to comply with the wishes of the corporations.

 

I don't mean to be snippy, but there's plenty of information out there. Maybe you should try consulting it rather than depending on a guitar chat board for your education on economics and business history.

[mikesr1963]

Don't think it will work? It seemed to have worked for Harley Davidson in the 80's. You could get serious Jap muscle bikes cheap and show rooms were full. STep in the government, bail out Harley and put big taxes on imports.

[bal704]

I've read plenty of information. In addition to the left-wing version of events I received in college, I actually tried to learn both sides of the story. I don't depend on guitar forums, the main stream media, or union talking points for my information. Thanks for not being snippy.

 

 

Obviously, in what follows, I'm simplifying enormously, but the outlines of the story are: At a certain point, companies in the developed world began aggressively to seek ways to lower the cost of labor. They established factories in areas with low wages. For instance, Fender and Gibson, two American manufacturers of musical instruments, moved production of some products to Japan, Korea, and Mexico (any of this sound familiar?). Given that US companies were now importing their products into the US, high tariffs hurt, rather than benefitted them. Soon, tariffs were lowered to comply with the wishes of the corporations. I don't mean to be snippy, but there's plenty of information out there. Maybe you should try consulting it rather than depending on a guitar chat board for your education on economics and business history.

 

[Grantus]

 

 

 

I don't exactly know what happened with Harley Davidson, but you're talking about one product that's pretty discretionary. A 40 percent tariff on all imports is a different thing entirely.

 

Would the U.S. economy eventually recover from that kind of action? Maybe, but it'd take decades. The worldwide trade war and resulting recession would last for years and years, if those kinds of tariffs didn't cause an actual shooting war.

 

We've moved most manufacturing overseas to cheaper labor. That's a fact, and it's not an easy thing to fire up all kinds of new manufacturing in the U.S. We'd have to let a bunch more immigrants into the country just to make that happen.

 

Not to mention that many of the physical goods come from overseas. The U.S. consumes far more natural resources than it produces.

 

And bringing this back to U.S. guitars, how many Gibsons, Fenders and PRSes use wood and electronics made in the US?

 

i wonder what any real economists would say about all this arm-chair protectionism? Like it or not, the world has changed. It's a global market. You can wish for the 19th century, but it no longer exists.