Members ggm1960 Posted January 3, 2012 Members Share Posted January 3, 2012 Now that I have a basement large enough to create a decent home studio I want to build a live room/practice space in the southeast section (approx 14' x 20'). There is already drywall on three walls and I'll need to build the fourth wall, hopefully with a window (like a real studio), on the north side. Fortunately the ceiling is unfinished which allowed me to re-route existing and install new cable in the last bedroom so all is good and I'm clear to finish the ceiling. This is where I'll need to learn how to install resilient channel. Although it may be a couple months or more before I really tear into this project I wanted to see what this stuff is like so I went to the Menards around the corner. They carry it but were out. I also see that the major on-line music gear retailers carry an Auralex brand of the stuff, would this really be better than the home remodeler stuff available around the corner? The number one goal is to have a good sounding room and soundproofing is a more distant second. There are also a couple outside windows I'll have to deal with somehow and suggestions on that (short of permanently blocking them up) would also be appreciated. I should also mention the way I normally work when creating music. Due primarily to necessity I've always done most everything ITB and have gotten very comfortable working that way and have pretty much done everything myself. I have an electronic drum kit but with a good room I may feel the need to add some acoustic drums. With a good room I'll certainly be more likely to invite friends over to record with me so I'll also be looking into getting a much better 16-24 channel mixer. The room will probably also serve as a practice space for my band. I'm interested in your thoughts about what makes a good live room and/or what you might do, or do differently, given this type of a space. I should probably post some pics so I'll get the camera out in the next couple days and add those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted January 3, 2012 Moderators Share Posted January 3, 2012 I used resilient channel in the construction of my home studio. I don't know if the stuff you'd get at Menard's is equal to the Auralex stuff. My guess is no. Z channel is not resilient channel. Resilient channel needs to flex. Z channel is fairly rigid. The key is in understanding what it's supposed to do for you and how. So you don't render your hard work useless. The idea is that the channel will turn the whole layer of drywall into a spring. You've got to make sure that channel flexes. And... ...you've got to make sure you don't "short it out" by drilling through the drywall into the stud. The whole idea is that your gypsum board is entirely hung on the channel. Any sound hitting the wall will either reflect, get absorbed by wall treatment, be absorbed by the spring motion of resilient channel, be absorbed by the fiberglass in the cavity... etc. It is part of a system and the not the answer itself. All the common techniques used to create a "soundproof" wall still come into play. Airtight. Heavy alternating mass, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ggm1960 Posted January 3, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 3, 2012 I used resilient channel in the construction of my home studio. I don't know if the stuff you'd get at Menard's is equal to the Auralex stuff. My guess is no. Z channel is not resilient channel. Resilient channel needs to flex. Z channel is fairly rigid. The key is in understanding what it's supposed to do for you and how. So you don't render your hard work useless. The idea is that the channel will turn the whole layer of drywall into a spring. You've got to make sure that channel flexes. And......you've got to make sure you don't "short it out" by drilling through the drywall into the stud. The whole idea is that your gypsum board is entirely hung on the channel. Any sound hitting the wall will either reflect, get absorbed by wall treatment, be absorbed by the spring motion of resilient channel, be absorbed by the fiberglass in the cavity... etc. It is part of a system and the not the answer itself.All the common techniques used to create a "soundproof" wall still come into play. Airtight. Heavy alternating mass, etc. I do understand the idea of it, to not couple sound via vibration. That also leads to a question of ....... how do I shore up sections where the ceiling meets the wall, where I don't want coupling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted January 3, 2012 Moderators Share Posted January 3, 2012 Caulking. That way you have an airtight seal that will still float. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ggm1960 Posted January 3, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 3, 2012 Caulking. That way you have an airtight seal that will still float. Thanks Lee, I can deal with caulk. I'll have three walls that are not floating but that's not so important that I'm going to tear the drywall off them, soundproofing is not the priority. It will be nice though to try and minimize vibration at the ceiling and also between my live room and control room. Heck, I'll probably do most my stuff just in the control room anyway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Philter Posted January 3, 2012 Members Share Posted January 3, 2012 I do understand the idea of it, to not couple sound via vibration. That also leads to a question of ....... how do I shore up sections where the ceiling meets the wall, where I don't want coupling? If you don't do a similar treatment on the walls, much of the effort you put into the ceiling will be wasted. The sound will travel right around the outside of your expensive and time-consuming ceiling install and through the walls. Sound finds the path of least resistance really well. Putting a RC-hung ceiling without walls that match the STC of the ceiling is a waste of time and money. You say that soundproofing is not a big concern... in that case I say forget about the resilient channel. If it actually is a real concern, you need to think about treating the walls as well as the ceiling. Soundproofing is a huge job with a lot of things that can go wrong, and it punishes half-hearted efforts. Acoustic treatment on the other hand is not all that difficult. With a 16x20 room you might be content with a dozen or so of those rigid fiberglass panels. They will take away the boomy echoey quality of an empty box of a room. They are easy to make (easier than hanging drywall on the ceiling into RC.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ggm1960 Posted January 3, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 3, 2012 Acoustic treatment on the other hand is not all that difficult. With a 16x20 room you might be content with a dozen or so of those rigid fiberglass panels. They will take away the boomy echoey quality of an empty box of a room. They are easy to make (easier than hanging drywall on the ceiling into RC.) Yes, acoustic treatment will be the most important thing. It would be nice to minimize sound to the outside and upstairs but it's not worth destroying pre-existing wall to do it. I don't have the budget nor do I want to take the time, or effort, for full on pro studio results in a hobby room. The concrete floor will simply get plastic sheeting, plywood and padding/carpet or some type of wood floor sheets. This is a basement and two of the walls are brick foundation that have been framed out and finished with sheet rock while the third is a non-load bearing wall that only goes as high as the I-beam.My hope was that resilient channel on the ceiling would help minimize sound transfer upstairs and the cost of the channel itself is pretty low compared to what the drywall, or other ceiling material(s) would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted January 3, 2012 Moderators Share Posted January 3, 2012 If you don't do a similar treatment on the walls, much of the effort you put into the ceiling will be wasted. The sound will travel right around the outside of your expensive and time-consuming ceiling install and through the walls. That is an excellent point. All of my is a room within room all on resilient channel. Double doors, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ggm1960 Posted January 3, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 3, 2012 That is an excellent point. All of my is a room within room all on resilient channel. Double doors, etc. Lee, is your studio in a basement? Do you have any pics? Also, how do you isolate the floor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted January 3, 2012 Moderators Share Posted January 3, 2012 Lee, is your studio in a basement? Do you have any pics?Also, how do you isolate the floor? Two car garage connected to the house. No pics. I'm getting ready to tear down the setup and re-setup and will take pics then. The floor is the garage slab. Interestingly enough, it is isolated from the house slab. A different pour with those expansion deallies between. Still, if you pound a kick in there, you can hear a little something. Pretty good considering the fam is 7 feet away watching the tube while I do some of this stuff. And really, for me now, I'm working more and more in the box as I work on songwriting demos and no band work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ggm1960 Posted January 3, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 3, 2012 I forgot to mention there's also a door in the non-load bearing wall that leads to my workshop, HVAC, water heater and yet to be built 1/2 bath. I suppose true soundproofing is out of the question but then I already knew that, still though, I hold out hope that I can do a lot towards muffling sound by minimizing air leaks. If I didn't do anything I'd still have a better space than I've had for all my home recording projects to date. With that in mind perhaps it would be easier to just install drop ceiling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members philbo Posted January 4, 2012 Members Share Posted January 4, 2012 Greg - I strongly recommend you go here and especially here, and do some serious reading before you start any work (even design work) on the studio. It can save you serious amounts of regret later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted January 4, 2012 Moderators Share Posted January 4, 2012 I forgot to mention there's also a door in the non-load bearing wall that leads to my workshop, HVAC, water heater and yet to be built 1/2 bath. I suppose true soundproofing is out of the question but then I already knew that, still though, I hold out hope that I can do a lot towards muffling sound by minimizing air leaks. If I didn't do anything I'd still have a better space than I've had for all my home recording projects to date. With that in mind perhaps it would be easier to just install drop ceiling? Drop ceilings are very effective for sound treatment and not effective at all for soundproofing. A drop ceiling with a layer a batt insulation above will be an almost perfect absorber (flat, all frequencies). Leave your floor hard and you have a large portion of your treatment taken care of. As far as even dulling sound transmission... it won't do a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ggm1960 Posted January 4, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 4, 2012 Greg - I strongly recommend you go here and especially here, and do some serious reading before you start any work (even design work) on the studio. It can save you serious amounts of regret later. thanks Phil, I'll check it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ggm1960 Posted January 4, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 4, 2012 Drop ceilings are very effective for sound treatment and not effective at all for soundproofing. A drop ceiling with a layer a batt insulation above will be an almost perfect absorber (flat, all frequencies). Leave your floor hard and you have a large portion of your treatment taken care of.As far as even dulling sound transmission... it won't do a thing. This may be the quick and dirty so I can get back to bidnez. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted January 4, 2012 Moderators Share Posted January 4, 2012 This may be the quick and dirty so I can get back to bidnez. If so, then just make sure you plug all the gaps and holes above best you can. You probably have ply subfloor above? Just go looking for breaches. Expanding foam and caulk and more ply and nails. Put your T-grid up high enough to not kill your headroom and low enough to allow you to pull some (probably thinner) batt insulation over the whole deal. You've just taken a major portion of your worries away with regards to flutter and comb filtering. No carpet though or you'll hose the fact that you do have full bandwidth absorption on the ceiling. The idea is full bandwidth absorption in the right places and not too much of it. Then... you can look into bass trapping and 1st refection kills with OC 703. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Huh? Posted January 4, 2012 Members Share Posted January 4, 2012 Greg - I strongly recommend you go here and especially here, and do some serious reading before you start any work (even design work) on the studio. It can save you serious amounts of regret later. There and There are excellent sites and helped me immensely, even though my room is tiny and not worthy of really being called a studio. My advice is to start building bass traps now. Even before you start the build of the studio, if that is something that budget-wise is a ways off. They are relatively inexpensive to make and you can make them at different thicknesses to control different frequencies. You can also make several as a cloud to hang over the mix position. Ethan's design is a Helmholtz resonator. Another way is to make 2", 4" and perhaps even 6" deep trays with 30% removal of the actual tray material, to promote absorption, and hang those (with a 3" air gap behind) at various chosen spots on the walls and ceilings. The reason I would do them now is because, while fun to build they are a tad tedious. Getting an assembly line type deal going is helpful. Cut all the parts...prep the wood for all the parts, prime and paint all the parts...... assemble all the parts....fit the rigid fiberglass to the traps, cover with burlap or some acoustically transparent fabric, apply any trim and then obviously the final step is to place and hang them. Starting from scratch with them might not be something you want to do after a long, arduous and expensive studio build. Also......it is almost all about the broadband absorption from what I read, so having the broadband absorbers built and ready to go is helpful in that you can design certain aspects of your studio around them....maybe even recess them if that is considered kosher. You can also do, in addition, wedges out of rigid fiberglass.......stacked on each other and placed floor to ceiling in the corners of the room with some sort of frame and fabric to hide them or keep them assembled as a unit. Or you can make 4" or 6" deep panel/tray type traps like the main ones......just narrower....2'-3' wide and place them floor to ceiling in the corners but with the air gap behind left by placing the panels across the wall corners. Corners filled is better though and it takes less space, nothing sticking out from the wall. All this stuff requires mounting hardware and or design.......so working it all out in advance is good practice. I am so envious of you folks with large spaces. Philter's studio is awesome!!!I had a room in the house but a) while nice and large....... I bothered my wife and subsequently our 1st baby girl.....so it was headphones only after 8pm. No good! b) Once I knew we had a 2nd baby girl on the way, I sorta sensed I would lose that room:p I could only get the missus to go along with me getting 1/2 the 2 car garage.......and that included all my other stuff....... my huge toolbox from 23 years as a motorcycle mechanic and a couple free standing cupboards for all my music books and peripheral stuff. Needless to say, I have a tiny room, but it is all mine. The rule is now......she can look for a new house for us as long as it includes a guest house, or if it is a horse property...it must have some sort of free standing foreman's office or whatever...that I can take as my studio, band room. Good luck with the build and here's wishing you a high rate of speed as far as progress. It is such a labor of love, you will enjoy the hell out of it. Be the good producer and plan it out to the nth degree.....shop carefully for the supplies and components..research the hell out of it and look for bargains. Look for studio's going out of business and auctions etc and if you see something you need....snap it up if the price is right, even if you are a long way off from needing it. Oh, Room EQ Wizard is free and is a good way to find out what is going on in your space and will help determine where the problems are and what sort of treatment you need.....absorption, diffusion, broadband control etc. You need a decent dB meter. http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/ Sorry for the long post and somewhat unsolicited advice. Resilient channel I have not worked with before. I just used regular drywall straight to the studs, walls at a slight angle and I floated the floor. I can mix at decent levels and you cannot hear anything out on the street. However....I don't record live drums in there or loud guitar amps. Thank goodness for modeling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Huh? Posted January 4, 2012 Members Share Posted January 4, 2012 Oh...Sheetblok, GreenGlue and U-Boats http://www.auralex.com/sound_isolation_sheetblok/sound_isolation_sheetblok.asp http://www.greengluecompany.com/ "A layer of Green Glue between two sheets of any commonly used building materials effectively eliminates up to 90% of noise transfer from one room to another." http://www.auralex.com/sound_isolation_uboat/sound_isolation_uboat.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ggm1960 Posted January 4, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 4, 2012 Oh, Room EQ Wizard is free and is a good way to find out what is going on in your space and will help determine where the problems are and what sort of treatment you need.....absorption, diffusion, broadband control etc. You need a decent dB meter. http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/ Sorry for the long post and somewhat unsolicited advice. Resilient channel I have not worked with before. I just used regular drywall straight to the studs, walls at a slight angle and I floated the floor. I can mix at decent levels and you cannot hear anything out on the street. However....I don't record live drums in there or loud guitar amps. Thank goodness for modeling. No, thank you for all the information, I appreciate it! Gathering knowledge from those who have gone before on what can potentially be a mind-numbingly complex undertaking is the real point of this thread. I've also gotten to a point where I use amp modeling almost exclusively and don't feel like I'm missing out on anything, in fact, quite the contrary. I don't have live drums either but there is the potential for that to happen. The space at the back of the room is what I planned for a "live" room: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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