Let's talk about reverb, will you?

[Huh?]

And besides, this thread only keeps going because of hormonal cycles. Well, you know, I

[roomjello]

 

What I think is interesting is how few people are giving their opinions on the different kinds of reverb. Sure, you can say it's flawed or this or that, but who cares? I won't even try and hazard a guess as to what is what, not that I really know anyway other than that some are hardware reverb units and some are not. No, I just want to say what I personally like the best and see what what the results are.

 

 

Of the plugs i have heard, for plugs, i like the sounds of the UAD Plate 140 and the UAD reflection engine thingy, the infamous lexi plugs, the CSR series, Altiverb.

I almost always use them during tracking and rough mixes and then replace them later with hardware. Occasionally the the UAD 140 lives right through, its is really great on snare.

For hardware i have and use Yamaha, Kurtzweil, Lexicon, Sony, Korg, Roland, Fostex, Ibanez, Eventide.

[temnov]

I'd like to go back to the test and ask Craig to announce the order.

I'm kind of sorry that Beck laugh it out, didn

[UstadKhanAli]

Temnov, you're welcome. I really don't care if I'm "right" or "wrong" or whatever. I use my hardware reverb mostly for the reasons cited earlier, and they're good reasons. But if UAD or Bricasti or some plugins or whatever sound great, I say great. Like Lee, I don't really care what it is. I only care that it sounds good.

 

And you touch on this with your last few sentences:

 

 

I remember the first time when my friend shown me Yardstick and Bricasti in million dollars studio in Moscow, I was blown away. I

[Huh?]

 

It's the heat AND the humidity

 

 

Wrong. Dunno about you but I am outdoors a lot in sunny CA..... and I often work on location outdoors in it, even when it is 100

[Lee Flier]

Don't you think though that you are nitpicking about unimportant stuff? Who cares if a lot of people say things like "it's not the tool it's how you use it".....which incidentally is a pretty accurate statement in my book. Maybe you just dislike that for whatever reason and are placing that dislike on us and basically saying..."don't say that here!"

 

But I say that for a reason, like I explained: it's a way to derail a conversation. I'm not "ordering" anybody not to say it. I'm suggesting that maybe there are better ways to communicate the idea, because too often it is used to basically shut down and invalidate someone's point of view. That's why I think I'm not just being nit picky, and it's not just for me that I say it. Craig was concerned about newbies that he doesn't want to think they have to have a multi thousand dollar hardware reverb unit to make good recordings, and he's right. My concern (besides the one Craig mentioned) is that a newbie really might have a {censored}ty piece of gear, struggle with it for awhile and just think "I can't get a good sound out of this. It must be me - I must just suck." Because every time they think it might be their gear, someone says "It's all about technique. A GOOD engineer should be able to get a great sound out of anything!" When they might actually be really happy if they could use a nice (even if not top dollar) reverb that sounds inspiring to them.

[Lee Flier]

 

Right? Isn't that what it's about? We all love to use stuff that blows us away. We want to be inspired by it. For many of us, it's not enough that the consumer doesn't care/can't distinguish what kind of reverb is used, what kind of gear is used. No, it's about inspiration. It's about being excited to use something. It's about putting something on your track and you smiling and goin', "Yeahhhhh...that sounds great!" It's about the gear changing how we work for the better. It's about excitement and fun and passion and great sound.

 

 

Yeah! I love that feeling when I dial up a sound with a piece of gear I haven't heard before - whether it's a guitar amp or an effect or a console or whatever - and go "Ohhhhh yeah - that's IT! That's the sound that sends shivers up my spine!" And I feel that sometimes gets sold short and shut down, and instead we are told it's better to struggle for a long time to get a sound that still may not end up as good as what you could dial up in 30 seconds from the right piece of kit. That's all I've been trying to say.

 

So Temnov... tell us more about your Bricasti!

[Rekel]

Just for laughs, I went down memory lane and found some pictures through Google of my first tape echo units:



The bottom one was my first (Echocord) and later on, I added the top one. They're long gone now but I wish I still had both, if only for sentimental reasons. (same goes for my Vox AC 30 and 50, which I sold to get a new Fender Twin Reverb).

After both Dynacord units were sold, I (or rather my parents) bought a Binson PA, including their delay "reverb" unit. The tapeless one with the rotating magnetic disc.

Damn, I feel so old now

[roomjello]

Just for laughs, I went down memory lane and found some pictures through Google of my first tape echo units: The bottom one was my first (Echocord) and later on, I added the top one. They're long gone now but I wish I still had both, if only for sentimental reasons. (same goes for my Vox AC 30 and 50, which I sold to get a new Fender Twin Reverb). After both Dynacord units were sold, I (or rather my parents) bought a Binson PA, including their delay "reverb" unit. The tapeless one with the rotating magnetic disc. Damn, I feel so old now

Cool, i have a DPR 20 which isn't all that impressive unfortunately. Those look way more neater.

[Rekel]

I don't think I've ever used a DPR 20, tbh, so I don't know what it sounds like but I'll take your word for it. I've used an AKG BX spring reverb for a while and it sounded not that bad back at the time, from what I remember. Gone, too. Just like the 4 and 8 track Teac machines.

I still have a few items from when I started out as a musician, though. A Revox B77 MK II and a Rotorsound thingy made by Schaller:



And a few guitars given to me by Framus in the early '70's and a HH guitar amp (212) I bought after having sold the Fender Twin (not a smart move in hindsight )

Perhaps the greatest thing I regret to date is selling an 16 track, 2 inch Ampex 1200 and a Trident console

[Lee Flier]

Fantastic, Rekel. I don't think I've ever seen a Dynacord in person, only heard about them. I do have an Echoplex that I love, though.

 

But oh man... I'd be kicking myself so hard for selling the Ampex and the Trident too. Probably about the best sounding combo you could ask for. Just don't try any tight punch-ins with that MM1200.

[Rekel]

Fantastic, Rekel. I don't think I've ever seen a Dynacord in person, only heard about them. I do have an Echoplex that I love, though. But oh man... I'd be kicking myself so hard for selling the Ampex and the Trident too. Probably about the best sounding combo you could ask for. Just don't try any tight punch-ins with that MM1200.

Cheers, Lee. That was indeed a killer combination sonic wise. A lot of maintenance, though. About those punches, it did take a bit of anticipation, hahahah. OTOH, that 'pressure' also kept the talent on his/her toes to get it right on the next repair punches

LOL, I remember whenever I did sessions as a player back in the analog days, I intentionally left a little gap after making a mistake, so the engineer could make an easier punch out.

Good to 'see' you again, Lee. Hope you're doing well!

[UstadKhanAli]

 

And I will definitely listen to people like Craig over people who cannot point to a proven track record in the industry. That was not an ass kiss BTW. Just a fact. If I want to learn about the use of compression....I am looking up the biggest names to verify the theories out there, made by people I have never heard of.....internet guru's.

 

 

I suppose this is where you and I might diverge a bit. I listen to Craig because he knows what he's talking about and can produce good sounding stuff, not because he has a proven track record in the industry. I don't give a rat's ass about that.

 

We sent my band's first album to a mastering engineer in Capitol Records, who worked in the Capitol Building, against my wishes. I didn't think his work was that great. But they thought he had a proven track record, having done name bands, and I was outvoted. We got it back, and well, it didn't sound all that great. I now use a mastering engineer who doesn't have a proven track record in the industry...at least, not with anyone famous. He does a MUCH better job. It's far more musical, and the difference isn't nitpicking or subtle....everyone notices it, whether it's people who buy our albums or the band members.

 

I've seen this happen fairly often. I just don't care about proven track records.

 

What I look for are two things:

1. Can the person record and mix music that sounds great?

2. Does the person know what s/he's talking about (even if I don't always agree with it)?

 

None of the rest matters.

 

If you listen the quality recordings that Lee Knight, Lee Flier, Phil O'Keefe, GearMike (Mike Shelton), Craig Anderton, Bob Ohlsson, Andy Hong (the latter two rarely post here), Harvey Gerst, Fletcher or others create, and the quality information and techniques that they discuss, you can tell that these people know what they're talking about.

 

As always, YMMV.

[UstadKhanAli]

 

Yeah! I love that feeling when I dial up a sound with a piece of gear I haven't heard before - whether it's a guitar amp or an effect or a console or whatever - and go "Ohhhhh yeah - that's IT! That's the sound that sends shivers up my spine!" And I feel that sometimes gets sold short and shut down, and instead we are told it's better to struggle for a long time to get a sound that still may not end up as good as what you could dial up in 30 seconds from the right piece of kit. That's all I've been trying to say. So Temnov... tell us more about your Bricasti!

 

 

Yeah.....the Bricasti, speaking of stuff that gets you super excited to fire up and use!!!!!!!

 

The last piece of gear I got that makes me smile every time I use it is the Pigtronix Echolution analog delay pedal. It's full frequency, sounds super great on not just guitar but voices or patching in to my DAW, has all sorts of fun but easy to use stuff that you just flick to use instead of scrolling through menus, and did I mention that it sounds GREAT? Holy crud, that thing is amazing...and I already have nice analog delay pedals!! I use this in my DAW sometimes, and I either need little or no reverb.

[Huh?]

But I say that for a reason, like I explained: it's a way to derail a conversation.

 

Okay, fair enough on all your points. I don't really see that phrase/saying having been used in a truly malicious way or to derail a conversation but I do agree that yeah, that would be unpleasant. I think it is almost just a kind of catch phrase if that is the right description? Something people say off the cuff without meaning to be snide. And it can be said so many ways with different inflections or attitude. Unfortunately you often can't "see" that on an internet forum and even then...... someone who meant something lightly and get's taken for an asshole because his intent was misread....... might go off back truly as an asshole rather than try explain his meaning. Maybe the reply catches him/her in a pissy mood.

 

But I'm not sure how it was meant so....I will let it lay.

 

It's all good....it's all love at the end of the day. We are all just trying to do the best we can before we kick the bucket......leave something of value behind maybe, do something worthwhile. How we arrive at whatever makes us feel good, is totally valid.

 

And temnov also nailed it about it being 60 odd days to election time.

 

No worries. Sorry to speak up.....I'm a bit tense too. The "love of my life" is on my ass big time............. I'm running off to the gym.....as much to go do my 6X a week 1 mile swim followed by relaxation in the hot spa, as to go hide for a couple hours.

[roomjello]

Perhaps the greatest thing I regret to date is selling an 16 track, 2 inch Ampex 1200 and a Trident console

OOOOUUUUCCCHH, that hurts.

[temnov]

 

Bricasti.

 

I started in late 80th with Yamaha PM2000 as a main mixer. We also had Telefunken 48track mixing console. Reverbs were Rev-7, SPX90 and 990, SONY, LXPs, Rolands. One of the gems was AKG BX 15, couple plate reverbs made in Eastern Germany (now and then Vermona), etc. 24 and 16 tracks tape recorders, of course. All this stuff, you know..

 

Then between 1997 and 2004 I had a break. Started doing recording and mixing again in 2005. ITB, Cubase and ProTools. I was using Altiverb, Lexicon PCM Native, Art Audio, Waves, UADs, all plugins, of course. It was convenient for me and my clients liked the result, so what else I needed, right?

 

After 10 years in US I got back to Moscow (in 2010) and went to my old friend's studio. He works just for one person, one very famous Russian pop-star. They were literally freaking out with the best gear on the market. Bricastis(2), Quantec Yardsticks (2), Maselec, Tube-Tech, Antelope Trinity, you have the picture. The guy works ITB, nevertheless. Everything is connected digitally and clocked externally. All was kind of cool but when I

[Huh?]

Ooof!!!! At between $5K and $8K......I'm not even going to bother listening to that Bricasti! I can't have that unit....waaay outa my financial reach. Congrats on picking that up temnov. I can see why you would be praising it so highly....it must be quite a good piece of equipment.

[Anderton]

Sorry if I lost patience

 

Yeah, well, I should never go to any forum after spending time cleaning up the HCPP. You could say "have a nice day" and I'd assume it was sarcastic.

 

I've seen people make great records with a Quadraverb guitar pedal from the 80s!

 

Okay, now you're really reaching!! True story: I wrote the manual for it. When I was done, Alesis said "Well, what do you think? Wanna hold on to it?" And I said that I thought it sounded like crap, and I wanted to send it back because I'd never use it and it would just take up space. So if someone made great records with a Quadraverb GT, they need to belong in some hall of fame somewhere.

 

Do you see what I mean?

 

Honestly Lee, not really...I think some button is being pushed that for whatever reason I don't have, so it's hard for me to relate. Suffice it to say nice gear is nice. Nice gear in the hands of people who know how to use it is nicer. But, crap can also sound when exercised correctly, and nice gear in the hands of people who don't know how to use can sound pretty bad. I think that covers the most common options

 

Well some chambers had variable surfaces and mic distances. But I said it was already starting with "the best." I didn't say it was perfect. Yes, plates are noisy, but they have a richness that I haven't heard from any digital verb so far and to me, that's worth having some noise. I might prefer the digital verb for some types of music (if it's really quiet), but let's face it, there's a reason most verbs to this day are simply trying to emulate plates, chambers and real rooms.

 

Remember you're talking to someone who doesn't really like artificial reverb. My solution is not to use much reverb On the Saul T. Nads cover I mentioned in another thread, there's some bused reverb on the harmony vocals, a few measures of special effect reverb, and that's it. All ambience is either room or delay. I guess part of my cavalier attitude about reverb is due to my...cavalier attitude about reverb.

 

But who wants to go through all that when you're just trying to make music?

 

Buildling gear is separate from recording, so I have it when I need it.

 

Yeah it can be fun sometimes to go nuts trying to squeeze the last drop of awesome out of a cheap piece of gear like that, but it's not something I want to do every day if I don't have to!

 

If you could compare the sound of those hot-wired springs to a digital plate, I think I know which one you'd end up patching into your aux bus...

 

Well, all those statements drive me crazy too. It's the heat AND the humidity. It's how hard you fall AND how fast you get up. Etc. I think what bothers me is that, like I said, those kinds of phrases are so often used to derail someone's train of thought. Someone's trying to tell you about a really rough experience they're going through, and you say "it's not how hard you fall, it's how fast you get up." That's condescending and diminishes their experience. And that's usually the kind of context where "It's not what you use, it's how you use it" is brought up in this forum.

 

Okay, that explains which of your buttons is being pushed. When I employ that technique, it's to add another element to a discussion, not derail it. But I understand that it can also be used to trivialize a subject

[Anderton]

 

We want to be inspired by it.

 

 

Yup. But I also believe "art is enamored of chance," and that inspires me. A lot of times I'll just plug in something to see what happens. I do have some faves for particular instruments and I'll often start there, but not always. Many times choosing the "wrong" gear ended up producing the "right" results, or took me in a better direction than I was going originally. Keeps me on my toes.

[Anderton]

 

I'd like to go back to the test and ask Craig to announce the order.

 

 

Okay. Well, I have to say Temnov put one over on ALL of you. All those examples were different MIDIverb II presets.

 

Kidding!

 

I refrained from saying anything because I knew which was which, but to me, the one that sounded most like a physical plate was (3). But the one I would most likely use on a track was (4), because I thought it had an understated quality that sounded like it was part of the drums, rather than being layered on top. I felt (2) would definitely be best for dance music as its more "neutral" quality would work well with complex synth sounds. (1) to me is a "character" reverb to get a specific sound not commonly found with other verbs.

 

Anyway, here's the roster:

 

1 UAD Lexicon 224 plug-in

2 Lexicon PCM Native vintage plate plug-in

3 Bricasti M7 snare plate v2

4 Nebula EMT 140

5 Reverence Bricasti snare plate A IR

[Anderton]

This has given me an idea for a possibly fun follow-up. Next time I have a fairly neutral track up, like voice or drum machine, I could put on different reverb plugs and try to adjust them to most accurately convey their "character." The object wouldn't be to arrive at a conclusion as to which was better, but to arrive at a conclusion as to the likely usefulness for different sources.

[Rekel]

I refrained from saying anything because I knew which was which, but to me, the one that sounded most like a physical plate was (3). But the one I would most likely use on a track was (4), because I thought it had an understated quality that sounded like it was part of the drums, rather than being layered on top. I felt (2) would definitely be best for dance music as its more "neutral" quality would work well with complex synth sounds. (1) to me is a "character" reverb to get a specific sound not commonly found with other verbs. Anyway, here's the roster: 1 UAD Lexicon 224 plug-in 2 Lexicon PCM Native vintage plate plug-in 3 Bricasti M7 snare plate v2 4 Nebula EMT 140 5 Reverence Bricasti snare plate A IR

Ahhh I was so hoping you would wait to spill the beans for a few more days.

[temnov]

Ooof!!!! At between $5K and $8K......

Nope, I've got the "basic" M7 model for $3,900.00. I don't need a remote and more than one. It's still a lot of money, but as far as I've heard Dave Pensado has only one and just prints effects when he needs that. I do the same.

Another unheard reverb is Quantec. Not for me right now

Ahhh I was so hoping you would wait to spill the beans for a few more days.

Sorry Rekel. Again it's not a blind test. If someone will go check these reverbs out for himself that will be the best result.

Roomjello, you liked UAD Lexicon 224. I use it all the time and it's one of the best ITB reverbs for my opinion.

[UstadKhanAli]

I think it is almost just a kind of catch phrase if that is the right description? Something people say off the cuff without meaning to be snide. And it can be said so many ways with different inflections or attitude.

 

I think that sounds about right. I can definitely see where it would be irritating if you are involved in many discussions about equipment over the years and people keep using the phrase. And as I said, the phrase pops up in photography discussions too, and in many respects, it is a really pedantic uber-obvious phrase, but I think people use it without meaning to be malicious. Most of the time.