My first fret level was a success! (Long post, lots of pics)

[nwa111]

This probably sounds stupid...but why do this in the first place...because the frets are too large?

[atrox]

 

Originally posted by nwa111 This probably sounds stupid...but why do this in the first place...because the frets are too large?

 

 

Having level frets is important for a buzz-free guitar. Sometimes wood will shift, frets will move, frets will wear, etc. It can be as bad some notes just completely "fretting out" (dead note). Everey few years, a well used guitar shoul get a level IMO.

 

Also, frets are rarely leveled from a factory. On a good board, this shouldn't be a problem, but I have had some brand new guitars come in from a much needed leveling.

[Mind Riot]

Originally posted by atrox I use a variety of radius blocks, a wood block (just a un unradiused block) and a diamond fret file like below Thats it for leveling and it usually only takes me about 2 or 3 minutes max to get a board level. It doesn't take much. I rarely hit one fret at a time, as that can cause major issues in itself, but sometimes you just have to. If I have to hit just one fret for some reason, I just use my diamond file sideways on it or my three sided triangle file.

 

I've seen that file on ebay a few times, almost bought one.

 

Thank you for sharing the information, and if it's not a breach of trade secrets or anything, I would also be interested in your overall method for leveling in general. Someone like you who has done a large number of guitars can be a valuable source of information on shortcuts and unnecessary steps. And thanks again for sharing the information you have so far.

[atrox]

Originally posted by Mind Riot I've seen that file on ebay a few times, almost bought one. Thank you for sharing the information, and if it's not a breach of trade secrets or anything, I would also be interested in your overall method for leveling in general. Someone like you who has done a large number of guitars can be a valuable source of information on shortcuts and unnecessary steps. And thanks again for sharing the information you have so far.

 

I don't keep secrets. I usually show people exactly what to do to work on their own guitars. Most people just don't want to. I'll always share how I do something.

 

However, I'm about to sit down and watch a movie. I'll be sure to post my step to step method later tonight or tomorrow.

 

I have a bass to do downstairs right now and a few guitars coming in this week for a level. Maybe I'll use one of them and take some step by steps pics this week.

[Mind Riot]

Originally posted by atrox I don't keep secrets. I usually show people exactly what to do to work on their own guitars. Most people just don't want to. I'll always share how I do something. However, I'm about to sit down and watch a movie. I'll be sure to post my step to step method later tonight or tomorrow. I have a bass to do downstairs right now and a few guitars coming in this week for a level. Maybe I'll use one of them and take some step by steps pics this week.

 

That would be great, I look forward to seeing it. Thanks again!

[larryguitar]

AFA cheaper straightedges-

 

most extruded aluminum 'yardsticks' are extremely straight-put two together in the store and slide them back and forth across each other; if no gaps appear as you do that, both are as straight as you can see.

 

 

Larry

[lowbrow]

True...and you can grind notches in them to get a straight edge that first over the frets. I use my Dremel for that.

 

 

Originally posted by larryguitar AFA cheaper straightedges- most extruded aluminum 'yardsticks' are extremely straight-put two together in the store and slide them back and forth across each other; if no gaps appear as you do that, both are as straight as you can see. Larry

 

[Mind Riot]

I was thinking of doing that myself. I'd most likely take my Stew Mac straightedge in with me and use it for comparison.

 

The notched straightedges seem like a neat idea, but they also have their limitations. If the fretboard wood is swollen in spots or uneven for any other reason, then it'll give false readings. And the levelness of the frets is really the thing that matters. But when they're really out of whack or worn, the notched edge could be a lifesaver.

 

It would also be nice to make my own because my Schecter is a 26 1/2" scale guitar, so a store bought notched straightedge wouldn't fit it. When the time comes that it needs leveling, I'd have to have a custom one if I needed it.

 

Not to mention that the premade ones are almost ludicrously expensive.

[Guitslinger]

 

Originally posted by Mind Riot Guitslinger, you said in your first post in this thread that you spot leveled with some kind of small flat block with sandpaper attached in thin strips so that it would sand a single fret while the smooth parts of the block ride on the outside frets. This was what I was thinking of doing with the steel bar. But if you are using a flat block, and then you attach sandpaper (either self-stick or with double sided tape) to the middle to sand a fret, then you are going to be adding the thickness of the sandpaper to the block in that spot, and it will no longer be flat. Even self stick sandpaper with no tape to hold it will be many thousandths of an inch thick. Thus, any spot leveling you do with it wouldn't work, because no matter where on the neck you're working you're always going to be sanding down the fret in the middle lower than the ones on either side. You'd end up doing the same thing over and over trying to undo it and make things level again. I don't know if I'm missing something here, but I just can't see that working no matter how you slice it. Could you be more specific in how you go about it and what you use?

 

 

With a dial caliper and some improvisation anything is possible. 220 grit sandpaper is about .012" thick. A strip of masking tape is about .004" thick. By adding layers of masking tape to the ends of the block the thickness of the sandpaper can be compensated for if necessary. A lot of the time I use 320 grit, which is .008" thick; by the time a few passes have been made over the frets, the sandpaper flattens considerably, so it's never more than a few thousands taller/thicker than the ends of the block. The key is to sand a little, then check for levelness with the straightedge.

 

I also use a millfile similar to the one Atrox purchased from Stewmac, but I made mine by cutting off the ends of the file and gluing a maple block to it. Atrox' method is fast, but he is experienced; a less experienced person might do major damage to the frets without honing their skills first. The wooden block method I described is more efficient, meaning no metal is removed that is not absolutely necessary, and it's idiot proof--it's almost impossible to grind a fret down more than it needs. The drawbacks are the method is time consuming, and labor intensive. Another advantage to using 320 grit paper instead of a file is fewer scratches have to be sanded out while dressing. I use the millfile almost exclusively for compound radius fingerboards.

[Mind Riot]

Originally posted by Guitslinger With a dial caliper and some improvisation anything is possible. 220 grit sandpaper is about .012" thick. A strip of masking tape is about .004" thick. By adding layers of masking tape to the ends of the block the thickness of the sandpaper can be compensated for if necessary. A lot of the time I use 320 grit, which is .008" thick; by the time a few passes have been made over the frets, the sandpaper flattens considerably, so it's never more than a few thousands taller/thicker than the ends of the block. The key is to sand a little, then check for levelness with the straightedge. I also use a millfile similar to the one Atrox purchased from Stewmac, but I made mine by cutting off the ends of the file and gluing a maple block to it. Atrox' method is fast, but he is experienced; a less experienced person might do major damage to the frets without honing their skills first. The wooden block method I described is more efficient, meaning no metal is removed that is not absolutely necessary, and it's idiot proof--it's almost impossible to grind a fret down more than it needs. The drawbacks are the method is time consuming, and labor intensive. Another advantage to using 320 grit paper instead of a file is fewer scratches have to be sanded out while dressing. I use the millfile almost exclusively for compound radius fingerboards.

 

I had a feeling that's what you might say; it occured to me after I posted that tape could be used to build up the edges of the block.

 

I may try it on my next guitar, and if for whatever reason it doesn't work I can always level the whole board anyway.

 

I know a lot of people use toothed files for their fret work, but I think I'll stick with sandpaper and double stick tape for a while. It removes less material and makes it harder for an inexperienced fellow like me to go too far.

[atrox]

 

Originally posted by Guitslinger With a dial caliper and some improvisation anything is possible. 220 grit sandpaper is about .012" thick. A strip of masking tape is about .004" thick. By adding layers of masking tape to the ends of the block the thickness of the sandpaper can be compensated for if necessary. A lot of the time I use 320 grit, which is .008" thick; by the time a few passes have been made over the frets, the sandpaper flattens considerably, so it's never more than a few thousands taller/thicker than the ends of the block. The key is to sand a little, then check for levelness with the straightedge. I also use a millfile similar to the one Atrox purchased from Stewmac, but I made mine by cutting off the ends of the file and gluing a maple block to it. Atrox' method is fast, but he is experienced; a less experienced person might do major damage to the frets without honing their skills first. The wooden block method I described is more efficient, meaning no metal is removed that is not absolutely necessary, and it's idiot proof--it's almost impossible to grind a fret down more than it needs. The drawbacks are the method is time consuming, and labor intensive. Another advantage to using 320 grit paper instead of a file is fewer scratches have to be sanded out while dressing. I use the millfile almost exclusively for compound radius fingerboards.

 

 

I don't think he understands what I am doing with a flat block. I only use it perpendicular to the frets. i don't ever run any tool parallel to the frets for leveling. It doesn't make sense. I only run the file or flat block up and down the neck.

 

I'm having a hard time understanding that post, but it seems that that is what he thinks I am doing? No?

[Mind Riot]

 

Originally posted by atrox I don't think he understands what I am doing with a flat block. I only use it perpendicular to the frets. i don't ever run any tool parallel to the frets for leveling. It doesn't make sense. I only run the file or flat block up and down the neck. I'm having a hard time understanding that post, but it seems that that is what he thinks I am doing? No?

 

 

Me or him?

 

It seems to me that what Guitslinger is talking about is using a small flat block with some sandpaper and a short straightedge to very slowly remove small amounts of material from individual frets, checking their levelness with the frets that bookend them frequently until they're level. Then he moves on to the next batch of three, and if he needs to go back and redo any of them then he does. I can see how this would be very labor intensive. Whether he's talking about moving the abrasive parallel or perpendicular to the frets, I don't know for sure.

 

You haven't described specifically what you do yet, but I got the impression from some of your other posts that you don't really work on single frets unless you absolutely have to, but instead work on sections of the board at a time or the whole board. I did get the impression that you always work lengthwise. (And with virtually any other method than the one Guitslinger describes, working lengthwise on the neck seems to be the only way to go.)

 

I don't know what Guitslinger's impression is about your method, but that's my impression of both.

[atrox]

Originally posted by Mind Riot Me or him? It seems to me that what Guitslinger is talking about is using a small flat block with some sandpaper and a short straightedge to very slowly remove small amounts of material from individual frets, checking their levelness with the frets that bookend them frequently until they're level. Then he moves on to the next batch of three, and if he needs to go back and redo any of them then he does. I can see how this would be very labor intensive. Whether he's talking about moving the abrasive parallel or perpendicular to the frets, I don't know for sure. You haven't described specifically what you do yet, but I got the impression from some of your other posts that you don't really work on single frets unless you absolutely have to, but instead work on sections of the board at a time or the whole board. I did get the impression that you always work lengthwise. (And with virtually any other method than the one Guitslinger describes, working lengthwise on the neck seems to be the only way to go.) I don't know what Guitslinger's impression is about your method, but that's my impression of both.

 

Gotcha.. yeah that does seem pretty laborious, but everyone has their method. Nothing is wrong As long as the final result is level frets

[Mind Riot]

Originally posted by atrox Gotcha.. yeah that does seem pretty laborious, but everyone has their method. Nothing is wrong As long as the final result is level frets

 

Right-o.

 

Speaking of which, I think I've got my '51 dialed in pretty much to where I'll leave it, action wise. I like to spank the strings pretty hard, especially when playing clean, bluesy stuff, so I needed to raise the action up a tad. It ended up at 1/16" on the high E and 5/64" on the low E. Very comfortable, though not super low, and I can hit it as hard as I want with very little buzzing.

 

I'm still looking forward to some more information on your methods of leveling when you get around to it. No rush, I don't want to be pushy, just letting you know I'm still very interested in seeing some more information.

[atrox]

Please forgive my typing errors. I really suck at typing well. I'm not really an uneducated goon

 

OK. Here is Dan Lilker's bass. It's an early 80's BC Rich something or other built in the USA. Dan was/is a pioneer metal bassist. He was a founding member of Anthrax, SOD, Nuclear Assult, Brutal Truth, and recently SoulFly. He happens to live in my town and is a big part of our local scene when he isn't out being a rock star

 

Unfortuantely, I had already leveled this board, but I can scuff her back up and mock level it for these photo's.

 

The first thing I noticed with these frets was how flat they were, but they still had enough meat on them to avoid a re-fret. I usually do not need my diamond file, but this thing was gonna give that file a workout indeed. Most of this level is actually involved in the crowning aspect.

 

OK Picts

This is the guitar in all it's many years of abusive touring the world glory. you can see I had already started crowning, but I'll mess that al up for you guys

 

These are the tools involved (on the lower level. i forgot to stick the fret file in. I'll not use all these tools for this level). You can drink and level. It's not an issue

 

First I make sure the neck is straight. I usually sight this, but on a bass or if you're just starting, use a straightedge. I needed to add some relief to get this one straight.

 

Looks like a 9.5" radius neck. Potentially good info for later

 

I normally would not tape this board up because Dan would probabaly like a little more abuse to the board. Though I rarely slip anyway. I taped her up anyway and marked across the frets with a Sharpie.

 

Hard to tell, but I used a straight block with 220 on it to very lightly sand off the marker. Any low spots would have more marker obviously. Originally, the sides below the 11th fret were low in relation to the middle. Because you are using so little pressue on the block, even though you are using an unradiused block, it will still show the extra amount of marker. It's easier to show then explain. If you used a radiused block for this, then you'd be assuming the frets are the same radius as the fretboard. Especially on a well played instrument, that is a very bad assumption

[atrox]

Knowing this is a 9.5" radius board... if the middle of the frets were low, i could spot level the ends of the frets with a 7.25" block in the problem area, lowring the frets. If it's the exact opposite problem, i could knock down just the middle with a 16". it's hard to see the gaps in the picts, but it's a usefull method. On this bass, i used the diamond fret file to knock down the middle from the 11th fret down. I VERY LIGHTLY knocked down above the 11th fret a few frets to taper it perfectly.

 

Diamond crowning file. This thing was actually hot when I was done with this board. Luckily, their was a lot of meat left on the frets. You are not taking any hiehgt of the fret with this tool. Only giving it that nice rounded crown. I usually do not need to use this tool, but these frest were BAAAAADLY flattened.

 

Ahhh... there is my baby. This is a triangle file. I use this for my crowning on most levels. You just kinda angle the crown in. Once again, easier to show then explain. I prefer the control of this tool. In this case, i used it to ge the last of the sanding/filing marks off the frets. You can see the frets still have the tops a bit flattened as I didnt want to go too crazy with the diamond file. the Triangle file finished the job.

 

Starting with 400 grit, I start up and down the neck hitting them all at one time, then I do two frets along the frets at a time, then just up one, hitting the last fret you did again. Confusing I know, but the picts explain it better

 

I do the same with 800 grit and then again with 0000 Steel wool sometimes if I'm lazy. This is teh result after polishing with steel wool. looks OK I guess. Usually I skip the wool though....

 

...and I go to the polishing wheel instead and polish the frets. Looks 10x better!!

 

Shiney happy frets on a dirty neck! Rock N Roll (what looks like scratch's on teh fret is actually shmutz from the poishing compound

[Mind Riot]

Awesome! Thank you so much for sharing this. It's great to see how an experienced hand does it.

 

So on this neck it exhibited the same problem we were discussing earlier, that of the frets having a flatter radius higher on the neck than in the lower register. So in this case, you leveled with the flat diamond file to give you a level surface for the center strings, without having to remove any unnecessary material by forcing it by using a radius block on the whole neck. Am I right?

 

I'm going to be ordering some stuff from Stew Mac in the next couple days. Among them is going to be a set of radius gauges. On my next neck, I was planning on using the radius gauges to check the radius of the frets at various points along the neck, and if they follow the radius of the board closely I'll probably use the radius block with sandpaper again. If they don't and are flatter in the upper register, I'll put some sandpaper on my flat steel bar and level smaller sections of the neck's width at a time, checking each 'strip' with my straightedge as I go to get a level surface in each 'strip' of area, but without removing any more material than I need to. Then I'll blend the flats together with a few strokes from the sides of the neck toward center. Depending on how much flatter the upper register is than the lower, I might level in the paths of the strings to make a slight compound radius.

 

Sound good?

[atrox]

 

Originally posted by Mind Riot Awesome! Thank you so much for sharing this. It's great to see how an experienced hand does it. So on this neck it exhibited the same problem we were discussing earlier, that of the frets having a flatter radius higher on the neck than in the lower register. So in this case, you leveled with the flat diamond file to give you a level surface for the center strings, without having to remove any unnecessary material by forcing it by using a radius block on the whole neck. Am I right? I'm going to be ordering some stuff from Stew Mac in the next couple days. Among them is going to be a set of radius gauges. On my next neck, I was planning on using the radius gauges to check the radius of the frets at various points along the neck, and if they follow the radius of the board closely I'll probably use the radius block with sandpaper again. If they don't and are flatter in the upper register, I'll put some sandpaper on my flat steel bar and level smaller sections of the neck's width at a time, checking each 'strip' with my straightedge as I go to get a level surface in each 'strip' of area, but without removing any more material than I need to. Then I'll blend the flats together with a few strokes from the sides of the neck toward center. Depending on how much flatter the upper register is than the lower, I might level in the paths of the strings to make a slight compound radius. Sound good?

 

 

Just remember, you can usually tell where your problem areas are going to be just by playing the guitar first. Concentrate on those areas and blend into the good areas. Another way with teh marker method is, when you are lightly sanding the frets to see where the marker is being left, look at the shavings on the fretboard. more shavings equal higher areas obviously.

 

It really doesn't take much to level out a borad. That bass took me about a minute of leveling and blending. Most guitars take me about a minute to 5 minutes for a bad one. Most of that time is just eyeing & re-markering/re-sanding (if needed)

[Mind Riot]

Originally posted by atrox Just remember, you can usually tell where your problem areas are going to be just by playing the guitar first. Concentrate on those areas and blend into the good areas. Another way with teh marker method is, when you are lightly sanding the frets to see where the marker is being left, look at the shavings on the fretboard. more shavings equal higher areas obviously. It really doesn't take much to level out a borad. That bass took me about a minute of leveling and blending. Most guitars take me about a minute to 5 minutes for a bad one. Most of that time is just eyeing & re-markering/re-sanding (if needed)

 

I'm sure if I stick with it and end up doing a lot of these things, I'll get to where I can eyeball it like you do. But for now and the near future, I'm still going to carefully check everything with my straightedge at various points along the way.

 

I do appreciate the information and advice. I've learned a great deal in this thread about how to read a neck better and how to get the job done in a few different ways without removing too much material, and that's always a good thing.

 

This thread has turned out to be more of a resource than I had thought it would. I just figured I'd share what I did, some would say good job, some would say I would have done it differently, maybe a few questions, and that would be it. But it turned out to be much more in depth and educational (at least for me) than that. Thanks again, and if I have more questions (which I'm sure I will), I hope you don't mind me asking!

[Splendor]

I love this thread.

[Matter-Eater Lad]

It's seems wrong to check the straightness of a neck with a straightedge ON TOP of the frets when your reason for this repair is because the fret tops are uneven. Checking the straightness by the fretboard (the wood) seems the right way.

[atrox]

 

Originally posted by Matter-Eater Lad It's seems wrong to check the straightness of a neck with a straightedge ON TOP of the frets when your reason for this repair is because the fret tops are uneven. Checking the straightness by the fretboard (the wood) seems the right way.

 

 

you are not checking thr straightness by the frets, though it in principle it should be really accuate to do so. You are actually eyeing the stratightedge from the board... not the frets. Also, you are only looking for the big gap areas, not every fret. If there is a gap in the mioddle of the neck, you tighten the rod. Though more often, you'll find the neck bows back when you take strings off and you'll have to lossen the rod. It isn't rocket sceience and you definitely do not have to spend a fortune on a notched straightedge.

 

I do not do it this way, i only showed the a good way to do it. I look down the neck from the headstock to see how straight it is. But I have a trained eye to do just that.

[ashasha]

OK, so let me see if I am tracking here.

 

 

[Mind Riot]

Originally posted by ashasha

OK, so let me see if I am tracking here.

 

 

You don't NEED to take the neck off, and obviously on a set neck or neck through guitar you can't. Bolt ons can be easier to work with when you don't have to worry about the body being in the way. But you don't have to take it off, just remove the strings and adjust the truss rod for straightness.

[Mind Riot]

 

Originally posted by Matter-Eater Lad It's seems wrong to check the straightness of a neck with a straightedge ON TOP of the frets when your reason for this repair is because the fret tops are uneven. Checking the straightness by the fretboard (the wood) seems the right way.

 

 

Fretboards are not always perfectly flat either. Wood can swell and hump with humidity and temperature changes. Besides, the frets are the actual playing surface, so their levelness is really what matters.

 

Successful fret jobs have been done both with standard straightedges on the frets and the notched edges on the board. Each method has it's caveats and advantages. As Atrox already said, you're not going to get a straightedge to rest perfectly on all the frets in the first place or else they wouldn't need to be leveled at all. But you can use it to make sure there isn't any relief or up bow in the neck prior to leveling, and then use it to check the levelness after it's all done.

 

The most important factor is the abilities and knowledge of the person doing the job, and how well they can 'read' a neck using the tools they've got.