Reality check about a life in music...

[The Dog Boy]

Originally posted by BlueStrat That's the delusion of every artist who doesn't sell: "Hey, it's not me, it's THEM. " It's pretty egotistical to think that the vast majority of the public are stupid sheep because they aren't buying something someone produces and decides to put up for sale. Maybe no one wants to buy it because it's {censored}, or it's boring, or not very well done, or done to death... just a thought.

 

Or maybe I'm right......

[ZigZagWanderer]

 

I turned to music journalism instead.

 

 

Timothy Scags: Do you review CDs? If so, my band just put out a new record, and we would like to send you a copy.

 

 

Back to the topic, I'm not familiar with Kings X, so I can't really say anything about them. However, if you really want to hear about how the masses can't appreciate good music, you should talk to some classical musicians. Or even jazz cats.

[Kingnome]

 

Originally posted by Timothy Scags I used to play a bit back when but I gave it up because I was not progressing further in my own abilities. I turned to music journalism instead. Much easier and the pays the same. Terrible.

 

 

I rarely post in these "intellectual threads" because I'm severely out-gunned, but I had to say that this guy's four sentences (?)say more about what you guys are arguing about than anything anyone else has said.

[Timothy Scags]

I sent you a Private Message under the Cyberpoch name, forgot to login on my own name.

 

Yes, I do CD reviews if anyone else is interested. I've done about 100 of them as of yet. they are some of my favorite things to write because I can be honest about what I hear without trashing anyone.

[rbh]

I'm an OLD hand at this music biz/life/scene i'm 58. I doubt if anyone is going to like my opinion, but what could I possibly know, since I've only been playing/recording/gigging off & on since 1964. Quality means NOTHING, ZERO, NADA. There are truly gifted prodigous god-gifted talents who can't pay the rent. The point i'm trying to make is that you are a FOOL if you do not make contingency plans if you choose a life in music. Unless of course you want to work at Tower recods when your 45 with all your tattoos and piercings and never earn more tha $12.00 an hour and still HAVE to have a room mate. You must be realistic, which is by nature tough for the creative types of personalities. Learn a skill as soon as you can that you can fall back on and still keep an eye on your dream. Unless you just don't care and all your concerned with is partying, getting high and playing music with reckless abandon. It's a very easy thing to do, and many hundreds of thousands of people have made the same reckless choice as you. In that case don't expect any sympathy from anyone else, you did it to yourself. Regardless of who or how many people you played in front of. Reality does not play favorites. And ask yourself, what kind of realistic goal should I expect.

[Rotten Noodles]

To put a different spin on things, let me ask this question: how many people here have visited a megaplex theater this year?

 

If you have, you did the cinematic equivalent of buying a Britney Spears album. Don't go throwing stones.

 

Is it sad that a whole lot of crap sells and a whole lot of gems get ignored? Yes, but it's also understandable. No one has the time to be discerning in everything. Maybe you listen to good music but watch crap TV. Maybe you watch good movies but read crap books (or don't read at all, for that matter). I wish it weren't the case, but it is.

[Frank Prince]

 

Originally posted by gtrbass Sure, but don't you think it's a bit difficult to make music, have people like it, yet the sacrifice is that you have no financial security? Trust me, this guy isn't bitching about not being able to buy that big house in Beverly Hills. He is practically rolling pennies to eat. If you've been doing this for 25 years, and now you're 50, you can't exactly start over in life and do something else to make a living. Try getting a job at 50 (when you've been in a band all your life) that offers some financial security or health benefits.

The sad thing is, all a band like Kings X would need to do is write a really stupid, extremely catchy, flavor-of-the-day novelty song like Bobby McFerrin's "Don't Worry, Be Happy", or Zappa's "Valley Girl", and then hire a hyper-agressive marketer to get it out there and get the masses singing along, and hopefully get it hitched up to a huge product like Coke.

 

After that, they would be set for life, and could continue writing and playing whatever they wanted.

 

I can't imagine guys like that don't have the talent, but I'm sure they would see it as a huge compromise.

[myway]

Hi,

Well I just had to post on this one. I am now 43 yers old. But back in the day I was young, very naive, and so full of myself it was unbelievable, but hey I was gonna be a big rock star right? Well I made the connections with the local djs. Met with all the "big people" , that were suppose to help me get from point A to point B. And I managed to learn a few things about the music biz. First of all the pay to play policy has been around so long that it is older than dirt, Just a plain fact. Ask all the older musicians who were attempting to play on the West coast during the Eighties. Playing clubs in West Hollywood was like pulling teeth unless you had lots of money to buy your spot and take your chances. The music business is so very sick right now. It's a seething zit that won't go away. But what is the answer? Simple.. Do not buy any of thier mass produced, cookie cutter, pre-fab crap. Throw it back in they're faces! Yes indeed! But now the saving grace..... you can make money in the music business. But if your dreaming of Porsches, and hot young celeb girlfriends... then the new music business has never been for you. Start by going to your local clubs and bars and DEMANDING that they bring back live music. Throw "Star Time Steve", and his Karaoke machine out the front door. I mean really, how many times can you hear some poor drunk butcher a Door's song anyway? Demand live music. Also how about this. Find a friend with a big basement, or an old warehouse, or ANYWHERE that you can bring your band into. Charge cover, make it BYOB for adults, and better yet make it an all ages show. Then play your butts off and make them want to come back again. Back in the old days they used to have Juke Joints where blues musicians thrived and played. Not for the love of money, but for the love of playing the blues. The made some money, but the music was the main thing. Well with the music business being the toilet that it is, we just have to make a "New" music business that is done OUR way. Too many record companies want to control what we listen too, what we buy, how we dress, the whole nine yards. I refuse. Take it back away from them. Too many clueless record company executives...not enough shot gun shells. Just a thought.

[mdurrie]

Originally posted by Poker You're a {censored}ing sellout

 

Uhh, no. Subby33 is a realist, with some good points. Popular music (as opposed to jazz or classical music) is NOT a pure art form, it's a creative BUSINESS.

 

It's the audio equivalent of graphic design or commercial art. It's an important element of pop culture, just as those things are, and it can take a leadership role in redefining current style, but its main point is not an expression of the musicians' world-view, it's to connect and communicate with the listening public.

 

Sure, you need to express something. Success means slipping in what you want to say, musically or lyrically, WITHIN a form that will be embraced by listeners.

 

If the advertising agency that designed Chevrolet's magazine ads in the 1950s had refused to change the approach, design and text of the campaign as the years passed, would you call it a "sellout"? As a creative professional (a term often applied to graphic designers and which I think describes popular music creators perfectly), is there something noble about steadfastly refusing to let current pop culture influence your work? Obviously not, unless you want to remain poor and anonymous.

 

The most important thing any would-be popular-music professional can do is listen to the radio. And not some crap classic rock station, either. Be familiar with what is being recorded and selling huge RIGHT NOW. I'm not saying you should copy it. Just LISTEN and be aware that if you want to pull huge crowds and thousands of CDs, you need to be somewhat current.

 

And pack your parachute, because the higher you get, the further the fall.

[Delle_Rose]

 

Originally posted by mdurrie Uhh, no. Subby33 is a realist, with some good points. Popular music (as opposed to jazz or classical music) is NOT a pure art form, it's a creative BUSINESS.

 

 

... most notable classical music was commissioned. Jazz first came to the masses as pop music (flap flap flap).

 

But I agree. All art that's presented to the public is inherently commercial, even if its attitude is vehemently anti-commercial. As soon as you try to attract an audience (ie: playing anywhere expect in your room, and to anyone but yourself), the vision is compromised (for better or worse), and it's commercial. And I hardly think that jeopardizes its integrity in the least - at least not as a rule.

[buzzcut]

When people use the term *sellout* the first thing that comes to mind for me is sour grapes. It's like when Green Day became famous and many of their "underground" pretentious bunch of so-called fans turned against them and called them "sellouts." Think about that for a minute. If you love what a band does, don't you want them to be successful so they can keep making their music? I don't know, maybe they gave up their "edge" to go commercial but instead of giving them the chance to see if they'd come back to their roots, it was all over for those who think success=sellout.

 

By that time, I don't think the members of Green Day gave much of a damn what they were being called. They were finally beginning to make a living doing what they love, making music. Did they adjust their style to make a living? Probably but sometimes that's what it takes to make it if that's what you want.

 

I think it was Gene Simmons of Kiss fame who when being called a sellout responded with something like: "Yea, we're sellouts. We sell out venues on a regular basis." Not an exact quote but the point is the same.

 

If you want to make your music your way, nobody is ever going to stop you. But if you do this and nobody comes to listen, it's the height of egotism and arrogance to think it's because everyone is too stupid or too conditioned to recognize your genius.

 

There are bands and artists who did their own thing and made it. They had the right stuff at the right time and were in the right position to be noticed by those who could help their music be heard.

 

The music business has more than its share of crap just like anything else but it's also ruled by the 10-25 year olds and what they want their parents to buy for them. If the 25 years and older crowd bought more CD's, guess what? There would be more music that would suit their tastes. But it's just a simple fact that for most people, the older you get, the less music you buy. Is it so surprising then that fewer artists are making music that you like?

 

It's nice to be able to say you kept your "integrity" and all that but what if your music just isn't that appealing to enough people so that you can make a living at it? Is that a crime? No, that's just the way it is. But if you want to make it, you either have to give the people what they already want or come up with something they love but didn't know they would love it until you did it.

 

Again, there is a lot of bull{censored} involved in the biz but name a vocation where this isn't true. I bet you can't. What makes the music biz especially tough is that there are just so many slots available. Just so many hours in the day and so many spins that can occur on any number of radio stations per day. If you can't do something to get one of those slots, you aren't going to make it, payola and other bull{censored} notwithstanding.

 

But if you can build a local following of people who dig what you do, you can still make a fair amount of money so you have a shot to keep doing what you love. But there is not guarantee of it and nobody owes you that guarantee. So either get over yourself (if you're one of those poo poo's) or change your approach. It's your choice. Live with it.

[BlueStrat]

If you want to make your music your way, nobody is ever going to stop you. But if you do this and nobody comes to listen, it's the height of egotism and arrogance to think it's because everyone is too stupid or too conditioned to recognize your genius.

 

Man, that is so well said, I'm putting it in my sig!

[buzzcut]

Originally posted by BlueStrat If you want to make your music your way, nobody is ever going to stop you. But if you do this and nobody comes to listen, it's the height of egotism and arrogance to think it's because everyone is too stupid or too conditioned to recognize your genius. Man, that is so well said, I'm putting it in my sig!

 

Wow. I'm blushing. My first sig-worthy quote.

 

EDIT: BlueStrat, coming from you, that means something. Thanks for the kind words but it really wasn't anything you haven't already said a whole bunch of times.

[dankJ]

Originally posted by Subby33 . I heard a new band recently called "Dragonsforce" or something like that I think. Those {censored}ers could PLAY!!! Amazing amazing amazing players. I couldn't beleive what I was hearing. Unforutnately, I will never buy their albums or see their shows, because they did nothing for my "heart".

 

 

first off, dragonforce.....i agree...very very very talented. the speed at which the music is played is simply mind boggeling.

i play guitar, and have for 10+ years...so i can admire and appreciate the skill..but just like Subby said....it personally does nothing for me as a type of cd to pop in while you drive home from work.

 

secondly....

i have actually been sitting here for over an hour reading each and every post in this thread. I have played music for a long time, i have loved music for even a longer time, and i have been seriously pursuing it as a 'career' for less than a year.

This thread, starting with the article about Kings X (i cannot say i have heard of them) has been very informative and discouraging at the same time. My only passion in life is music. and i would give almost anything to be able to do that and have a comfortable financial situation. Reading through this...its discouraging to see how many stories of much more talented musicians how they spend their whole lives in pursuit of something they can never grab. To some extent...yeah, maybe its something they should have realized after the first 5, 10 years...whatever....i guess thats the passion taking over. At the same time, it just nothing but motivate me to try harder, to make music i am proud of and that others like at the same time.

 

Other than that, I really have nothing intelligent to contribute ( i just got done working a 13 hour shift on 4 hours of sleep..im tired)..i just wanted to convey my appreciation for this very informative and eye-opening thread.

 

now a shameless plug.....

 

www.myspace.com/tomfooleryrock

[Poker]

 

If you want to make your music your way, nobody is ever going to stop you. But if you do this and nobody comes to listen, it's the height of egotism and arrogance to think it's because everyone is too stupid or too conditioned to recognize your genius.

 

 

No, its mainly because it doesn't spin on the radio and because there is not a million dollar marketing campaign behind it.

 

Example : The Darkness. 80s metal. Success. Marketing + timing.

 

Genius is not a factor in the success or failure of an artist or band in today's music industry.

 

Example : Simple Plan. Success. Crappy music. Marketing + timing.

[buzzcut]

 

Originally posted by Poker No, its mainly because it doesn't spin on the radio and because there is not a million dollar marketing campaign behind it. Example : The Darkness. 80s metal. Success. Marketing + timing. Genius is not a factor in the success or failure of an artist or band in today's music industry. Example : Simple Plan. Success. Crappy music. Marketing + timing.

 

 

Dude, I would never suggest that the music biz doesn't have more than its share of bull{censored} going on.

 

I'm just saying that the bull{censored} in the biz notwithstanding, you can make some headway if you give the people what they want. Is what the people want determined by million dollar marketiing schemes? Probably to some degree but once all that money is paid to get it on the radio, people who listen still have to like it.

 

Those who are drones may take whatever's on the radio as the best available music out there but most listeners don't like everything that's on the radio. There are plenty of folks seeking out good music on the web these days which is a wonderful thing. But the people who buy CD's are mostly the kids (more accurately, their parents are buying it for them) who are into the music. This is a bigger cause of the problem than a marketing campaign because kids want to hear stuff that's old hat to us who have been around a while because it's new to them (the kids). They want to hear about things they can relate to, not someone who's lived 30 or more years. So marketing folks know their target audience and that's what they are shooting for - the same ole thing in a "new" package.

 

There are many facets to the whole thing but if you can write a song that's better than what everyone else is offering currently, you do have a shot if it's appropriate for what publishers need.

 

If you are performing your own music, that's cool and if you can create a buzz locally, then regionally, you have a shot at being noticed by the majors - especially if you write your own material. My comment about doing music your way is that if you get out there and start playing those local gigs and nobody cares, then whatever you are doing is not appealing to enough people. If that's the case, that's just how it is and anyone who holds a grudge in that situation is about as arrogant as a person can be.

[ThudMaker]

 

Originally posted by buzzcut . . .But the people who buy CD's are mostly the kids (more accurately, their parents are buying it for them) who are into the music. This is a bigger cause of the problem than a marketing campaign because kids want to hear stuff that's old hat to us who have been around a while because it's new to them (the kids). They want to hear about things they can relate to, not someone who's lived 30 or more years. So marketing folks know their target audience and that's what they are shooting for. . .

 

Does this simply pertain to Top 40 pop/rock and rock in general? Country music and it's artists seem to be able to age just fine, IMHO. Why?

[buzzcut]

 

Originally posted by ThudMaker Does this simply pertain to Top 40 pop/rock and rock in general? Country music and it's artists seem to be able to age just fine, IMHO. Why?

 

 

IMO, country music has traditionally been where the "adult" listeners migrate once they are no longer rebellious youngsters.

 

However, that has been changing to the point where even in country music, the younger you are, the better chance you have to get signed unless you're already established. In other words, the demographics of the country music listening audience has been changing more towards youth oriented music due to the popularity it now has with the youth.

 

There are still the older country music fans but the country music being made these days reflects their tastes less and less based on my observations.

 

At the same time, I've noticed a trend in recent years, of 70's and 80's rockers migrating to country music for their musical outlets. IMO, this is because the old "classic rockers" have no where else to go and country music is taking them in because they appeal to the 30 and 40 year olds. Still, the demographic is steadily heading younger and younger. There may be room for both but it's all going to depend (obviously) on which group can sustain the most sales.

[Poker]

 

Originally posted by buzzcut If you are performing your own music, that's cool and if you can create a buzz locally, then regionally, you have a shot at being noticed by the majors - especially if you write your own material. My comment about doing music your way is that if you get out there and start playing those local gigs and nobody cares, then whatever you are doing is not appealing to enough people. If that's the case, that's just how it is and anyone who holds a grudge in that situation is about as arrogant as a person can be.

 

 

Most people like crap music. I'm sorry but I really think its true! I won't end up old and angry because of this, I'm just stating my opinion... And my opinion is that crap sells, if its marketed enough, most of the time through image and looks... It has nothing to do with music.

[Subby33]

 

Originally posted by mdurrie Uhh, no. Subby33 is a realist, with some good points. Popular music (as opposed to jazz or classical music) is NOT a pure art form, it's a creative BUSINESS. It's the audio equivalent of graphic design or commercial art. It's an important element of pop culture, just as those things are, and it can take a leadership role in redefining current style, but its main point is not an expression of the musicians' world-view, it's to connect and communicate with the listening public. Sure, you need to express something. Success means slipping in what you want to say, musically or lyrically, WITHIN a form that will be embraced by listeners. If the advertising agency that designed Chevrolet's magazine ads in the 1950s had refused to change the approach, design and text of the campaign as the years passed, would you call it a "sellout"? As a creative professional (a term often applied to graphic designers and which I think describes popular music creators perfectly), is there something noble about steadfastly refusing to let current pop culture influence your work? Obviously not, unless you want to remain poor and anonymous. The most important thing any would-be popular-music professional can do is listen to the radio. And not some crap classic rock station, either. Be familiar with what is being recorded and selling huge RIGHT NOW. I'm not saying you should copy it. Just LISTEN and be aware that if you want to pull huge crowds and thousands of CDs, you need to be somewhat current. And pack your parachute, because the higher you get, the further the fall.

 

 

Thank you for defending my post.

 

I also wanted to add.

 

Sometimes talent means more than seeing things through your own eyes. You need to see through others. When I write a song that I think sounds good to me, and I enjoy . . . I dont stop there. I think "what would get people into this track . . . where is the hook at".

 

Even "experimental" bands like Radiohead or the "indie" scene types dont make completely unlistenable music. If you listen hard the reason that people listen is because something grabbed their attention. This is especially important at the beginning of a song. So many songs have terrible beginnings and you skip it on the album (everyone is guilty of this), and then later you dont skip it, and you're like "oh this is a really great song, I cant beleive I skipped it before.

 

Well you probably skipped it because it didnt grab you. I think you have to make sure your music IS compromised to an extent to grab listeners who are not musicians.

 

I also agree with the comments about trashy movie making. Do all of us musicians sit back and rent underground french films? Some of us probably do, but I bet a lot went to go see Mission Impossible 3.

 

hehe

[buzzcut]

 

Originally posted by Poker Most people like crap music. I'm sorry but I really think its true! I won't end up old and angry because of this, I'm just stating my opinion... And my opinion is that crap sells, if its marketed enough, most of the time through image and looks... It has nothing to do with music.

 

 

Well, I tend to agree with you but the important thing to remember about it is these are only our opinions. Just like when the adults didn't like the music we listened to as teens and young adults, we tend to feel the same about what's popular today.

 

As far as I know, there are no objective standards to judge great music. You and I may agree or disagree but the fact remains that a lot of peope will always like music we don't.

[Subby33]

 

Originally posted by buzzcut I think it was Gene Simmons of Kiss fame who when being called a sellout responded with something like: "Yea, we're sellouts. We sell out venues on a regular basis." Not an exact quote but the point is the same.

 

 

This quote is from the drummer from Metallica. Lars Ulrich i think his name is.

[buzzcut]

Originally posted by Subby33 This quote is from the drummer from Metallica. Lars Ulrich i think his name is.

 

I wouldn't be surprised. That's why I don't usually quote people verbatum.

[Poker]

Originally posted by buzzcut Well, I tend to agree with you but the important thing to remember about it is these are only our opinions. Just like when the adults didn't like the music we listened to as teens and young adults, we tend to feel the same about what's popular today. As far as I know, there are no objective standards to judge great music. You and I may agree or disagree but the fact remains that a lot of peope will always like music we don't.

 

I have a good argument to support my last post.

 

People are STUPID.

 

And that is easily supported by facts.

 

[Poker]

Listen guys...

 

I understand what you say about doing things people like etc etc

 

But get real... Don'T tell me there is not 3948349384 bands that does the same {censored} as Simple Plan but don't get noticed. And 409349 bands that make better music.

 

We are musicians here... Forget the crap about the business and what sells... Its just chance, timing, marketing, some talent and a lot of hard rock for those who make it.