Reality check about a life in music...

[Subby33]

Originally posted by Poker Listen guys... I understand what you say about doing things people like etc etc But get real... Don'T tell me there is not 3948349384 bands that does the same {censored} as Simple Plan but don't get noticed. And 409349 bands that make better music. We are musicians here... Forget the crap about the business and what sells... Its just chance, timing, marketing, some talent and a lot of hard rock for those who make it.

 

Quite the negative outlook.

 

And I think your numbers are wrong . . .

 

[BlueStrat]

This is pretty funny- a forum full of guys who have never "made it" arguing about what it takes to make it. (Myself included!)

 

Sometimes I like to step back and marvel at how seriously we take ourselves and how much we think we know about success, when the fact is, most of us don't really know {censored}, and just have theories, conjecture and wishful thinking to base ourt opinions on.

 

People are stupid, all right, but most of them are musicians.

[albert visick]

Originally posted by BlueStrat This is pretty funny- a forum full of guys who have never "made it" arguing about what it takes to make it. (Myself included!) Sometimes I like to step back and marvel at how seriously we take ourselves and how much we think we know about success, when the fact is, most of us don't really know {censored}, and just have theories, conjecture and wishful thinking to base ourt opinions on. People are stupid, all right, but most of them are musicians.

 

haha all that goes without saying - you might as well put that on the forum index.

 

it's all good though. there are a lot of people here that i consider a great deal more than qualified, but non-qualified amateurs can teach me just as much by way of throwing their opinions to be challenged by the other experienced and inexperienced alike. granted, this particular thread may not have been as much of practical help as other more topic-specified threads on the biz forum.

 

i believe that learning is up to the learner, and not the qualification of the teacher (as the famous saying goes, "when you are ready to learn, a teacher will appear"). in broader contexts, for example, adults can learn (i.e. re-examine their perspectives) by interacting with children and pets. but i digress..

[Poker]

I'm not necesseraly saying those who make it don't deserve it, but...

 

I'm saying many underground bands (in fact, hundreds of bands) are at least as good than those we hear on radio. Not all underground bands make math metal you know. Search and you'll see.

 

You really think every band that becomes big KNEW how to make it? Don't you think they just run into someone from the industry who knows how to sell a product, then become big? Then 3 years later they are hasbeens, most of the time, because another "product" is "in".

 

Do you think Panic At The Disco is an amazing band? Do you really think the Simple Plan guys are some genious who knew the magic formula to sell millions of albums?

 

Give me a break...

[BlueStrat]

 

Originally posted by Poker I'm not necesseraly saying those who make it don't deserve it, but... I'm saying many underground bands (in fact, hundreds of bands) are at least as good than those we hear on radio. Not all underground bands make math metal you know. Search and you'll see. You really think every band that becomes big KNEW how to make it? Don't you think they just run into someone from the industry who knows how to sell a product, then become big? Then 3 years later they are hasbeens, most of the time, because another "product" is "in". Do you think Panic At The Disco is an amazing band? Do you really think the Simple Plan guys are some genious who knew the magic formula to sell millions of albums? Give me a break...

 

 

I agree with you completely, and have said before that after you have done all you can to become successful, it still comes down to about 70% chance. There are simply too many uncontrollable variables to success for anything but luck be a key and perhaps decisive ingredient.

[Taurus]

i think it takes a person with a sense of destiny in thier lives and a buddhist/christ conciousness awareness of what "chance" and 'lucky circumstances' actually are...

 

for my band, the past 4 years has seen equal and opposite forces want my band to succeed and fail, right up until today. the battle continues and I'll take good fortune whever it comes, but I won't expect it and I know we can still win because it is the force of our will that has created our 'luck' to this point.

 

im broke, sleeping on couches, am down to one lousy part-time job and yet I'm at the doorstep of achieving what most of us would consider success and had I played it safe and not been so committed (and insane), I would not have the oppurtunity I do now.

 

and still, no gaurentees! 5 songs in the can at minimum (10 is better) and a great showcase show, then we get picked up, if we're 'lucky'? No. If we manifest the showcase in front of the honchos, we will own that moment because WE created it, not the suits...everybody wants to be blown away, even those jackasses. If you got it; flaunt it, own it and bring it. You can't be meek and second guess and sulk about not having any luck, it don't work that way.

[BlueStrat]

5 songs in the can at minimum (10 is better) and a great showcase show, then we get picked up, if we're 'lucky'? No. If we manifest the showcase in front of the honchos, we will own that moment because WE created it, not the suits...everybody wants to be blown away, even those jackasses.

 

that's all great....IF you have the songs they're looking for that day, and IF they're the right honchos, and IF they like your look and IF they see a marketability factor and IF you have that unquantifiable something that you can't put into words but most successful acts have, and IF the guys you are playing for are in a good mood, and IF the guy who decides he likes you doesn't get fired a week later and all his projects get dumped...

[Poker]

 

Originally posted by BlueStrat 5 songs in the can at minimum (10 is better) and a great showcase show, then we get picked up, if we're 'lucky'? No. If we manifest the showcase in front of the honchos, we will own that moment because WE created it, not the suits...everybody wants to be blown away, even those jackasses. that's all great....IF you have the songs they're looking for that day, and IF they're the right honchos, and IF they like your look and IF they see a marketability factor and IF you have that unquantifiable something that you can't put into words but most successful acts have, and IF the guys you are playing for are in a good mood, and IF the guy who decides he likes you doesn't get fired a week later and all his projects get dumped...

 

 

Exactly. They will "maybe" listen to the songs... If they sound like what they are looking for.

 

Its what I have been saying all along... don't you think its a little strange that those jackasses are the one who make it or break it for a band? Its how it works, but it just proves my point...

[Gregg Hall]

 

Originally posted by Poker Exactly. They will "maybe" listen to the songs... If they sound like what they are looking for. Its what I have been saying all along... don't you think its a little strange that those jackasses are the one who make it or break it for a band? Its how it works, but it just proves my point...

 

 

Classic!

[Fourth Floor]

I'm facing this reality check this evening and happened upon this thread. So I can chime in with some reality.

 

You gotta look at the King's X story and work out whether it's worth it for you. Would you trade 25 years for selling a million albums and being broke?

 

I don't know if I would but I still live for the illogical dream. i still dream of being the biggest band in the world. Being in a band is a totally illogical way to live your life. It goes against your survival instinct really.

 

In my case, I have been a full time musician for slightly over a year now. I moved state to make a go of it, signed a small indie deal that has proved somewhat advantageous. We tour the country, get national airplay and have pockets of fans across the country and get killer reviews 99% of the time (I don't exaggerate). We're a great live band. We have made ourselves accessible and interesting.

 

Earlier this year we released our third album.

 

But I am now broke and am looking to get back into my original industry (creative advertising where they pay you to be creative) and the band is 20 grand in debt from touring. It's not like we're living anywhere near extravagantly on tour. When you take out costs of travel and promotion, there is often none left or a debt to nurture.

 

It's hard to see a way forwards. The hardest part is that (supposed) quality has not equated to success. It does seem like luck. More and more I feel ready to quit. We have little left to do more touring or promotion. The label is behind us and is ready to support our future albums but they lost money on the album and can't point to anything other than the airplay expected for the second single didn't happen, depsite the video getting a good flogging on TV.

 

At a point, you do have to think the other way and go, well, maybe the music isn't any good if not enough people like it.

 

Again, it's totally illogical to want to earn a living off an original band. Not impossible, just unlikely.

 

So my point is that you can have almost all the elements in place but while I don't blame the public, it's just the public's collective opinion that you aren't worthy to be paid for your art.

[MartinC]

Thanks for writing fourth floor. I think you must have a very good band to have gotten that far. And if you have fans, you are "worthy" of being paid. Maybe it's the format, the system, that your working in that's the problem. I have some cousins who own a record company in England and they have handled some very successful acts, but none of those acts are wealthy-my cousins are. It must be frustrating to be in that situation and not be earning money. I don't have the answer, but can only say that perhaps there might be another way of approaching the music business that would be more lucrative. I'm on the other side of the coin-I have a great day gig-my own business- and I make good money playing, but I have very few fans, almost no airplay, no label, etc. I play originals at corporates. Once in a while we get a concert, and we are also a great live band. This creates a longing in that we realize we should be doing concerts all the time-that we are good enough to be successful at that level, but, we don't have the contacts, and we can't afford to go out on the road for no money. So, I certainly don't have the solution either......................................

P.S. When I was 18, I went to London to intern with my cousins during the summer. When they asked what I was planning to do with my life, I said I wanted to be a professional guitarist. With shocked looks on their faces, they asked why? I said it was a good life. They said no, it's a {censored}ty one.

[gtrbass]

 

Originally posted by MartinC I have some cousins who own a record company in England and they have handled some very successful acts, but none of those acts are wealthy-my cousins are.

 

 

Ohh so true. Why? You are being pimped out, plain & simple.

 

 

Originally posted by Fourth Floor The hardest part is that (supposed) quality has not equated to success. It does seem like luck.

 

 

Equally as true.

[Fourth Floor]

Thanks Martin, I have a couple of clarifications to add...

It's not about being wealthy but having a viable career i.e. you can tour, you can record etc.

 

It's also not somuch about doubting whteher you're any good but that you're not going to be blessed by having enough people willing to contribute to helping you continue to make music. In which case, you have to rationalise (like KX will have to face) and say, maybe it's time to make an exit and say we've achieved all we can.

 

 

And thridly, it's catch 22. Play in the band = no money. Have a day gig = less time to play but steady cashflow.

[gtrbass]

Play in the band = no money.

 

What's the point? Why do that? Why aspire to make money for someone else in order to fill one's need for creative satisfaction. Is it the slim hope that it will all be worth it someday? Why make records that nobody's buying, to play clubs for a few people as a full time pursuit? Working harder does not equal success, you've said it yourself. It's timing, and even then some other joker is gonna make the lion's share of the money.

 

Have a day gig = less time to play but steady cashflow. Is there any shame in that?

 

I started this thread to point something out. I have been through the major label meatgrinder. I got wise 15 years ago. I work about 45-50 hrs a week at a career that pays me far more than most musicians will ever make off their music. I go home and work on music in my studio (or other studios in LA for another 10-20 hrs a week. ) In other words, I bust my ass to have it both ways. Is there any shame in that? Would I like more time to focus on my music? Sure, but that ain't reality.

 

So what do I get out of it?

 

I'm a musician. I will never stop making music. I have a career and a family. That career affords me the financial means to make records the way I see fit. My family is supportive of how hard I work, becasue that's what I need to do and I pay the bills. I only take on projects that I believe in and I feel I can help make even better. I don't have to kiss any ass or play music I don't care for because I need the money. I don't need the money.

 

The fact that the state of affairs in music is the way it is disgusts me. I can't change it, so I choose not to compete in some rat race where some a$$hole is pimping me out. For example there's a club in West LA called the Joint. I played there three or four times. It's a nice room, the parking sucks, and the scumbags who run this place treat everyone like sh*t, bands, patrons, it doesn't matter. I don't need them or their bullsh*t. F*ck them, I hope they go under. My point is why should any of us put up with that sh*t for no money? What purpose does it serve?

 

It's always "the artist's fault" when the public doesn't buy in, and it's always some "managers bright idea", or some "label a$$hole's brillaint idea" when it does succed. I don't think so.

[Fourth Floor]

I agree with you entirely gtrbass. After a year of trying to make it a fulltime concern I'm back to the position you're in and am looking to get back into my old profession as a day job. And that's probably an ideal situation really.

 

No shame. Just the reality of artistic pursuits it would seem to me.

 

Play in the band does = no money. Why? Every cent earned by the band gets ploughed back into the band or goes on costs or will in future pay off our debt. I can't pimp myself to playing covers, this repulses me. So why do it? Because I want to keep doing it, I want to keep making music, I want to produce something for the ages and it's another ticket in the lottery. So it is a case of no money in exchange for creative satisfaction. Basically, that's what I'm looking for but I can get paid 100K a year to be creative in ad agency. It's not art but it's creatively satisfying but somehow not as satisfying as what you get when you create it ALL yourself as with music - like all things in life, it's a trade off.

 

I also agree timing is a big thing. The guy who said his tatse lies in the 80s and that will never work in this day and age obviously hasn't listened to the radio since 2003.

[Subby33]

 

Originally posted by Fourth Floor I agree with you entirely gtrbass. After a year of trying to make it a fulltime concern I'm back to the position you're in and am looking to get back into my old profession as a day job. And that's probably an ideal situation really. No shame. Just the reality of artistic pursuits it would seem to me. Play in the band does = no money. Why? Every cent earned by the band gets ploughed back into the band or goes on costs or will in future pay off our debt. I can't pimp myself to playing covers, this repulses me. So why do it? Because I want to keep doing it, I want to keep making music, I want to produce something for the ages and it's another ticket in the lottery. So it is a case of no money in exchange for creative satisfaction. Basically, that's what I'm looking for but I can get paid 100K a year to be creative in ad agency. It's not art but it's creatively satisfying but somehow not as satisfying as what you get when you create it ALL yourself as with music - like all things in life, it's a trade off. I also agree timing is a big thing. The guy who said his tatse lies in the 80s and that will never work in this day and age obviously hasn't listened to the radio since 2003.

 

 

That was me who made the comment about the 80s.

 

However if you read closer I said that the sound wouldn't work now HOWEVER taking inspiration from your influences and from that type of sound could.

 

I listen to a lot of modern music.

 

Bloc Party, Arcade Fire, Interpol, Scissor Sisters, Editors, Bravery . . . . all 80's influenced.

 

Do they sound exactly like 80s bands.

 

No.

 

Just wanted to clarify what I meant.

 

Put the smiths and the cure on the market now exactly as they were before, I do not think it would sell. Take what you love from it and modernize the sound and I think it will. Thats all I meant.

 

However I dont really claim to know anything.

[Subby33]

Oh and PS.

 

I haven't listened to the radio since 1996.

[Fourth Floor]

I wasn't having a go at you in any way.

 

There's a pretty heavy recycling of the 80s going on. Well, they don't sound exactly like their influences but they scream 80s and the new wave disco backbeat is thoroughly played out at the moment.

 

There is every chance The Smiths or The Cure would still work today. The emo world would dig Morrissey lyrics. But you're right, they'd be playing the lottery just like everyone else.

[Subby33]

Originally posted by Fourth Floor I wasn't having a go at you in any way. There's a pretty heavy recycling of the 80s going on. Well, they don't sound exactly like their influences but they scream 80s and the new wave disco backbeat is thoroughly played out at the moment. There is every chance The Smiths or The Cure would still work today. The emo world would dig Morrissey lyrics. But you're right, they'd be playing the lottery just like everyone else.

 

Heh.

 

I dunno if modern kids would like Morrissey . . . well i'm sure some do. But compared to bands like AFI and My Chemical Romance and whatever else the screamo/emo kids are into . . . .

 

I think Morrissey wrote amazing lyrics that aren't anything like those bands. However I'm sure a lot of people could get into him.

 

I just almost hate to think of those kids listening to Morrissey. He's just too good!

[BlueStrat]

 

Originally posted by Subby33 Heh. I dunno if modern kids would like Morrissey . . . well i'm sure some do. But compared to bands like AFI and My Chemical Romance and whatever else the screamo/emo kids are into . . . . I think Morrissey wrote amazing lyrics that aren't anything like those bands. However I'm sure a lot of people could get into him. I just almost hate to think of those kids listening to Morrissey. He's just too good!

 

 

Heh! I'm an old blues/rock/alt rock guy, I I like MorriseY. I bought a couple of his CDs back in the day, as well as the Cure, the Police, the first Midnight Oil, and the Church.

 

Hey, when something is good, it's good, I don't care what it is.

 

(I also bought some Hall and Oates records! I STILL like 'em!)

[Poker]

Excellent post gtrbass, I agree with you.

 

Since about a year I play music JUST for fun.... If I can make money with it, its a PLUS. But I don't care anymore and wow do I have a great time now. My brain finally accepted the fact that the industry is crap and most people out there won't help us.

 

We write good music, have fun, make shows, get some fans, some hot chicks... That's what Rock and Roll is all about, not pleasing some stupid {censored}er who works for EMI.

 

Money is just that, money. We all need it, but past a certain point, its kind of pointless. I can have a job for that and music forever in my heart. I realised that you don't need to be big and tour constantly to have fun. More and more bands are getting local success and its ok. Being a small band have lots of advantages like total freedom over our music, time to rest, time to have a girlfriend and real friends. A life for God's sake.

[gtrbass]

Originally posted by Poker We write good music, have fun, make shows, get some fans, some hot chicks... That's what Rock and Roll is all about, not pleasing some stupid {censored}er who works for EMI.

 

That is absolutely Killer

 

I'm gonna make that my sig line!!!