Members fastplant Posted July 27, 2007 Members Share Posted July 27, 2007 yes i do If you close mic, then my preference is aquarians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members qwertyMan Posted July 27, 2007 Author Members Share Posted July 27, 2007 Well, today I went into Daddy's Junky Music in Boston, and comparing the Aquarian heads to Remo's and Evans', the Aquarians seemed so much better quality. Everything was so much cleaner, the collar seemed better too, and the hoop seemed better quality then Evans' or Remo's. I tap tested it too, and it resonated well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cheeseadiddle Posted July 28, 2007 Members Share Posted July 28, 2007 I tap tested it too, and it resonated well. I don't get that. So it resonates when it has no tension applied to it. How does that positively affect the tensioned head? What benefit can be drawn from that? What makes that head that does resonate when it isn't under tension, different from the head that resonates only when under tension? [Other than the fact that you can tap it and hear it resonate?] Inquiring minds want to know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members qwertyMan Posted July 28, 2007 Author Members Share Posted July 28, 2007 Hmm... I'm not sure, I just heard that it was a clue that the head will have a nice tone when tuned up. It sorta makes sense... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cheeseadiddle Posted July 28, 2007 Members Share Posted July 28, 2007 Hmm... I'm not sure, I just heard that it was a clue that the head will have a nice tone when tuned up. It sorta makes sense... What makes sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jenksdrummer Posted July 28, 2007 Members Share Posted July 28, 2007 Inquiring minds want to know... +1, I don't understand that idea either. Just measn the collar and the curve places an amount of tension on the head already, IE, the head assembly is stiffer. IMO, so what? But, then again, I haven't tried the magical Aquarian heads. Iv'e been disappointed by Remo heads, and have been thrilled with Evans to where I don't want to consider any others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cheeseadiddle Posted July 28, 2007 Members Share Posted July 28, 2007 Well, I've tried a few. Once they are under tension, a head is going to react as a head does. Mylar stretched across a bearing edge, under tension. Any pretension that was there before hand [thing you hear when you tap head], is negated by the tension applied by tuning forces. Things like coatings, ply differences, muffling techniques aside, you take two clear 10 mil single ply heads, no funny business about them, one from Evans and one from Aquarian, and they are both going to react the same way under equal tension. Sure, they will sound slightly different, but I can assure you that isn't because the Aquarian resonates when you tap it out of the box. That's nothing but pure, unadulterated, marketing BS. It's a page straight from dw's timbre matched nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members qwertyMan Posted July 28, 2007 Author Members Share Posted July 28, 2007 cheeseadiddle, I think your right, however, if the head resonates when tapped, maybe that means that it will resonate clearly at lower pitches...? And I don't think it resonates when you tap it because it already has tension on it. I think resonates when you tap it becaue it has a very good collar. Or something... I really have no clue... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cheeseadiddle Posted July 28, 2007 Members Share Posted July 28, 2007 I really have no clue...On this matter, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members qwertyMan Posted July 28, 2007 Author Members Share Posted July 28, 2007 Well, I think I'm pretty much decided on Aquarian. After comparing their heads to Evans (and Remo) they just seem to be of much better quality. The collar on Remo heads are crimped randomly. The collars on Evans heads are crimped in a nice order. The collars on Aquarian heads, however are smooth and not crimped at all, which leads me to believe that tuning will be more responsive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members D Carroll Posted July 28, 2007 Members Share Posted July 28, 2007 i love evans. it is my passion in form of a drum head. on that note... my 13'' snare needs a new head... looks like i have a chore today!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1001gear Posted July 28, 2007 Members Share Posted July 28, 2007 Gotta disagree here Cheese. Dead heads can be indicative of a variety of flaws and defects that will also translate into diminished tone. Um, aging plastic, warped film, eccentric collaring, plying inconsistencies etc. Basically a resonant unmounted head is ready from the get go. Applying even tension is all it takes. not so the dead one. This BTW is a very distinct effect with low tension tom heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cheeseadiddle Posted July 28, 2007 Members Share Posted July 28, 2007 Keep this in mind. The part of the mylar that is being "tuned" is the portion that is inside the circle of the bearing edge. Once you tune out any wrinkles in the head, and that surface becomes flat, it doesn't really matter what the mylar looks like between the bearing edge and the collar of the head. That part isn't being tuned. In fact, no matter what profile it has in the box, it's going to take on the profile of the curvature of the bearing edge if any, or stretch from the bearing edge to the hoop in more or less a straight line. This is plastic we are talking about. Do you understand this? And when it's under tension, it bends and stretches. In the end heads are all the same. They are pieces of plastic stretched across a bearing edge. Just because one head has a different collar, isn't going to translate into easier tuning on that head. Think about it. How does a head work? What makes it work? How do you tune it? It's not rocket science. What's easier tuning? Do the tension rods turn easier? Does the head magically fall into the right pitch? Come on. Stop buying into the marketing bunk and think. Don't believe all the ads you see in Modern Drummer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cheeseadiddle Posted July 28, 2007 Members Share Posted July 28, 2007 Gotta disagree here Cheese. Dead heads can be indicative of a variety of flaws and defects that will also translate into diminished tone. Um, aging plastic, warped film, eccentric collaring, plying inconsistencies etc. Basically a resonant unmounted head is ready from the get go. Applying even tension is all it takes. not so the dead one. This BTW is a very distinct effect with low tension tom heads. That could be caused by any number of things. And could be remedied by something as simple as a drum key. And if you want to expand this into the gamut of possible {censored} that can go wrong with heads, so be it. I'm talking about one thing, and one thing only. Tapping heads as an indicator of them being good or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1001gear Posted July 28, 2007 Members Share Posted July 28, 2007 Low tension Cheese. At one or two turns, the head better be a live one. Serious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members qwertyMan Posted July 28, 2007 Author Members Share Posted July 28, 2007 I gotta agree. A head that resonates well with no tension will resonate well tuned low. A head that doesn't resonate well with no tension probably won't resonate well at lower tensions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jenksdrummer Posted July 28, 2007 Members Share Posted July 28, 2007 Low tension Cheese. At one or two turns, the head better be a live one. Serious. I don't know of any heads that aren't, given that the tuning was done properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1001gear Posted July 29, 2007 Members Share Posted July 29, 2007 Depends on the tone you want out of the head. If for instance you want that old deep sustaining Nashville tom sound, the heads simply don't get enough tension to level out any defects. And on that note, consider Drum Dial tuning - pretty touchy stuff for a sheet of foolproof window tint. Now if sustain is not a criteria - snares, jazz tunings, you like muffling etc.; then of course the effect will be less noticeable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jenksdrummer Posted July 29, 2007 Members Share Posted July 29, 2007 Depends on the tone you want out of the head. If for instance you want that old deep sustaining Nashville tom sound, the heads simply don't get enough tension to level out any defects. And on that note, consider Drum Dial tuning - pretty touchy stuff for a sheet of foolproof window tint.Now if sustain is not a criteria - snares, jazz tunings, you like muffling etc.; then of course the effect will be less noticeable. I completely disagree with that statement. Sorry... I don't go around tapping drumheads when they aren't even on the drum. Just seems silly... I do look to make sure they don't have a kink or anything else (like one side had been squished) - but checking to see if it's resonant without it being mounted is just plain nuts, IMO. Then, to claim they're "better" because of it? Sorry fellas, but I simply can not and will not put merit behind that kind of statement or assessment. You could have a completely WARPED drumhead that wouldn't tune worth a damn (collar off center, etc), but due to the "tension" being generated by the collar against the head, it'd resonant. But, outside of that, could aquarian be making a better head? Sure, but if they are, it's not due to anything like what this discussion has lead to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1001gear Posted July 29, 2007 Members Share Posted July 29, 2007 Well this thread is about Aquarians and not Remos but i speak from experience with my pinstripes. Period. It's even clearer in my mind because Remo some years back introduced the logo certified head. The first examples I tried were magic; fat and expensive sounding, even on the cheapest of drums. Since then I've gotten logo -d heads from dear ole MF that were dead in the box. These could not be tuned for fatness. Period. (again ) They displayed an annoying clickiness and only started to 'sound' when pushed into the ringy dingy zone. True there may be a ton of bad stock out there that no seller would want to be tested on but caveat emptor. The premise and actuality are in fact good science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members drumtechdad Posted July 29, 2007 Members Share Posted July 29, 2007 Well this thread is about Aquarians and not Remos but i speak from experience with my pinstripes. Period. It's even clearer in my mind because Remo some years back introduced the logo certified head. The first examples I tried were magic; fat and expensive sounding, even on the cheapest of drums. Since then I've gotten logo -d heads from dear ole MF that were dead in the box. These could not be tuned for fatness. Period. (again ) They displayed an annoying clickiness and only started to 'sound' when pushed into the ringy dingy zone. True there may be a ton of bad stock out there that no seller would want to be tested on but caveat emptor. The premise and actuality are in fact good science. Did those "good" pinstripes pass the "tap test," and the "bad" pinstripes did not? That's what is at issue here. What you say has to do with manufacturing consistency, not pre-tensioning resonance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1001gear Posted July 29, 2007 Members Share Posted July 29, 2007 Yes of course they did. That was the point. Whatever the terminology, the pre-dead ones don't cut it. As a matter of fact I still have a 10 and a 12 that had worn dead and been replaced, AND THEY STILL PASS THE TAP TEST! I don't really know what to make of that in particular, it just makes a real cool point. The logic here is pretty simple. With all the tensile and elastic criteria that can make or break drum head tone, a head that presents a coherent musical resonance right out da box will display more sustain and coherent tone than a head that doesn't. It was drum techs that discovered these principles, not me. As I alluded to earlier, there are easily marketing criteria that make this notion of good head and bad head unprofitable. And easily enough marketing personnel and force to water the issue, but tone is tone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members drumtechdad Posted July 29, 2007 Members Share Posted July 29, 2007 The logic here is pretty simple. With all the tensile and elastic criteria that can make or break drum head tone, a head that presents a coherent musical resonance right out da box will display more sustain and coherent tone than a head that doesn't. Well, okay, I bow to your experience, but not to the "logic." Given that in both cases (heads that "pass" and heads that "fail") the heads are under tension when in use--well past the out of the box condition--it does not necessarily follow that one that has more resonance when untensioned will perform better. It may, but not because of that particular logic. Correspondence is not causality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1001gear Posted July 29, 2007 Members Share Posted July 29, 2007 Ok, my logic but here are some facts: ---------------------------------------- 1) not all pinstripes are 'good' 2) one 'good' 10" pinstripe - mine 3) displays sustaining BASS note as is 4) tunes up easily to low, fat, sustaining, 'pro quality' sound on cheap Tama 5) wears normally and eventually goes dead 6) de-mounted head still retains bass note ---------------------------------------- Assessment: The pre-formed bass resonance supplies a strong fundamental structure that allows more mechanical efficiency when the head is under tension. Better tone. The fact that the head retained the original resonance is indicative of the basic structural/ manufacturing nature of this principle. (I still don't know if this is a point.) The head goes dead because of higher resolution factors like scuffing and eccentric/ haphazard wear. Conclusion: Yadda yadda etc. And I should add that yes a subsequent 'not good' 10" pinstripe failed to tune up with any of the desirable tonal properties of the 'good' one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agogobill Posted July 29, 2007 Members Share Posted July 29, 2007 When I buy heads, I tap them to make sure they match the note that is stamped on my DW shells. Sometimes I'll go for the harmonics, depending on what songs I'm playing that week - no one can accuse me of not playing for the song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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