OT: Religulous

[lossforgain]

Good post, DTD.

[mraia1]

I'm kinda surprised at the number of bigots here. If this level of vituperation were directed at, say, black people, everyone would rightly pile on and demand greater tolerance and inclusiveness. Diversity, even. I guess those things only count when you happen to agree with the ridiculed minority. Too bad! Inclusiveness for me, but not for thee. And here I thought a new age had dawned. Anyway, more evidence (where none was needed) why folks don't look to drummers for theological insights.

+1:thu::thu:

Are Christians wacky? Sure! But no more than any other person of faith. To a Christian, Budhist, Mormon, Jew, etc. an atheist looks silly.

Perspective!

[irnbru83]

Seems true that no one's beliefs are going to be changed by a discussion with the "opposition," so what's the point in debate anyway? Can't PROVE you are right empirically, so nobody cares.

 

I started out in this thread merely trying to convince CEM that perhaps not all Christians are certified morons, but got all preachy for no helpful reason.

 

Sorry all.

[Longshanks]

Anyone heard of Pastafarianism?? Its pretty funny, theres a book on it i believe its called the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

I have a friend who swears by it.

[willhaven]

 

I'm kinda surprised at the number of bigots here. If this level of vituperation were directed at, say, black people, everyone would rightly pile on and demand greater tolerance and inclusiveness. Diversity, even.

Apples and oranges. Black people don't have any choice but to be black. People have a choice to believe what they believe. If they believe something foolish and want to parade their foolishness around for others to see, I will tell them I think it's foolish.

 

Not every set of beliefs carries the same weight. Just because a political party in Europe promotes pedophilia doesn't mean it's a position worthy of admiration. Just because an alarmingly high number of people are morons who believe in 9/11 demolition conspiracies doesn't mean that their position isn't simply laughable. Just like those who practice witchcraft, satanism or paganism are a bit off, I think those who honestly believe in miracles, angels and an all loving and caring god are a bit off.

 

As an agnostic atheist, I'm open to the possibility of a god, but never having seen evidence of one will leave me wondering why some people are so adamant about the existence of a god.

 

Now to use the word bigot means to be both hateful and intolerant. I don't think many atheists are outright intolerant of religious folk. They're just intolerant when religion seeps into their laws and into their lifestyle. I don't think many atheists want a separate drinking fountain for themselves and a separate drinking fountain for deists. Until the religious types are relegated to that kind of lifestyle, they don't have much to complain about in my opinion.

 

All of that said. I have many friends and coworkers who are devout Christians, Catholics and Mormons. We don't discuss religion and we don't press our ideals on one another and we get along just fine.

[Okieslims]

Vulgarity first...

 

Christian's will walk right up to you and tell you that you are going to hell and will burn for eternity and only be comforted by your own screams. What can be more vulgar? As a christian, it is your duty to try and alter my beliefs. As a person that sees the man behind the curtain, it is my duty to try and alter yours. You will preach the pain that awaits me for not believing over any form of love. That's vulgar. I will simply interrupt your programmed responses by saying something like "space man in the sky".. this grabs your attention fully for a split second and allows me to elaborate to an active listener rather than a closed off single minded lamb.

 

 

..your beliefs effect the laws that govern the society I live in. For example, I can't buy beer on Sunday.

Further more, I am alienated because I don't believe. This encourages me to try and convince as many people as possible to open their eyes and make a decision that's based on more than the thorough brain washing that their parents gave them and their grandparents gave their parents and so on and so on.

 

 

Why do you have to reason with them? whats the point? I mean, if thats what they believe, what do you care? If they all think your going to hell, so be it. Again, if you dont believe in hell, you probably dont have anything to worry about. You just called God a "spaceman in the sky". Other than the fact that its a bit rude and insulting to a lot of people here who happen to worship that spaceman, I cant understand why anybody who isnt Christian would care. Seriously. What Valid Point do you have to make that would require you to go Vulgar to get said point across? I believe in God. You dont. Whats your argument other than the fact that you just dont believe? My argument is that I choose to believe. You cant prove he doesnt exist, just as I cant prove he does. Do you really feel qualified to school people who do believe? It shouldnt really come down to that. If you dont want to believe keep it to yourself. If you do believe, keep it to yourself. You'll notice I'm coming down on BOTH sides here. I personally choose to believe in God. I dont give a {censored} if you dont, and dont think your going to hell for it either. I would simply prefer that you not call me and the rest of the billion or so Catholics on this planet idiots for believing in something.

 

[Jack Thumper]

 

Vulgarity first... Christian's will walk right up to you and tell you that you are going to hell and will burn for eternity and only be comforted by your own screams. What can be more vulgar? As a christian, it is your duty to try and alter my beliefs. As a person that sees the man behind the curtain, it is my duty to try and alter yours. You will preach the pain that awaits me for not believing over any form of love. That's vulgar. I will simply interrupt your programmed responses by saying something like "space man in the sky".. this grabs your attention fully for a split second and allows me to elaborate to an active listener rather than a closed off single minded lamb. ..your beliefs effect the laws that govern the society I live in. For example, I can't buy beer on Sunday. Further more, I am alienated because I don't believe. This encourages me to try and convince as many people as possible to open their eyes and make a decision that's based on more than the thorough brain washing that their parents gave them and their grandparents gave their parents and so on and so on.

 

 

Maybe you need to stock up on your beer on Saturday then if you feel yours rights are being fringed upon,hell that's what I do cuz I live in a dry county.Who in the hell said we live in perfect world anyway, you adapt and move on.This thread is a prime example why Religion and Politics should be banded from forum discussions.

[Okieslims]

 

Maybe you need to stock up on your beer on Saturday then if you feel yours rights are being fringed upon,hell that's what I do cuz I live in a dry county.Who in the hell said we live in perfect world anyway, you adapt and move on.This thread is a prime example why Religion and Politics should be banded from forum discussions.

 

 

This is an ot thread and you have the freedom not to decide whether or not to come into it. I, however, do not have the freedom to purchase my beer on Sunday.. I don't have that freedom because of religion.

 

Lets role play for a sec. Imagine that Jews were the majority religion and they made a law that said we couldn't eat pork based on their religious beliefs... would you stfu and adapt, or speak up and try to do what little you could to change it?

 

If religion is a personal thing, then I am all for it. It helped my grandmother die peacefully. I wouldn't want to take that crutch from anyone. However, it is not just a personal thing because religious folks are trying to force feed non-believers their religion via in your face fear tactic laced preaching and law where that fails..

That shouldn't happen. It's my responsibility to do what little I can to prevent it.

[Cross Eyed Mary]

ec-8mD_BhrU&feature=related

[JakeTheSnake]

Vulgarity first... Christian's will walk right up to you and tell you that you are going to hell and will burn for eternity and only be comforted by your own screams. What can be more vulgar? As a christian, it is your duty to try and alter my beliefs. As a person that sees the man behind the curtain, it is my duty to try and alter yours. You will preach the pain that awaits me for not believing over any form of love. That's vulgar. I will simply interrupt your programmed responses by saying something like "space man in the sky".. this grabs your attention fully for a split second and allows me to elaborate to an active listener rather than a closed off single minded lamb. ..your beliefs effect the laws that govern the society I live in. For example, I can't buy beer on Sunday. Further more, I am alienated because I don't believe. This encourages me to try and convince as many people as possible to open their eyes and make a decision that's based on more than the thorough brain washing that their parents gave them and their grandparents gave their parents and so on and so on.

 

 

as a Christian and defender of my faith, I don't have to try to prove anything to you, nor "alter your beliefs." I believe Jesus is my savior. Do what works for you.

 

But to make generalizations about a whole group of people is ignorant.

 

ignorant.

 

and IIRC, you said that

Christian's will walk right up to you and tell you that you are going to hell and will burn for eternity and only be comforted by your own screams.

unless youre talking about Pat Robertson and all his right wing, extremist bulls**t, I am telling you that you are wrong.

 

and don't come back at me with me with "you're a closed minded idiot" and all that crap. I'm not. I'm one of the more liberal Christians you'll ever talk to.

 

An important Christian value is tolerance and acceptance. Do all Christians always demonstrate this quality? No. Do all people? No.

 

So, don't point your finger at Christians for being the reason you can't just buy beer on Sundays.

[Okieslims]

It is your responsibility to spread the word of christ. That is your bible given duty as a christian.

as a Christian and defender of my faith, I don't have to try to prove anything to you, nor "alter your beliefs." I believe Jesus is my savior. Do what works for you. But to make generalizations about a whole group of people is ignorant. ignorant. and IIRC, you said that unless youre talking about Pat Robertson and all his right wing, extremist bulls**t, I am telling you that you are wrong. and don't come back at me with me with "you're a closed minded idiot" and all that crap. I'm not. I'm one of the more liberal Christians you'll ever talk to. An important Christian value is tolerance and acceptance. Do all Christians always demonstrate this quality? No. Do all people? No. So, don't point your finger at Christians for being the reason you can't just buy beer on Sundays.

 

[lossforgain]

It is your responsibility to spread the word of christ. That is your bible given duty as a christian.

But what does that MEAN?

I think what you're actually looking for here is what Jesus said:
Matt 28:19-20
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (NIV)

Jesus asked people to help others follow him. Many people are more interested in converting you to Christianity than displaying the character of Jesus and showing what it means to be like him. If Christians all did that, there would be far fewer people saying that they are out of their minds.

Here I go not staying out of it again.

[Cross Eyed Mary]

I can't find Sam Jackson doing the Ezekiel verse. Too bad, it's a good one.

[Cross Eyed Mary]

Ha! I found it! {censored} yeah.

[YOUTUBE]wUT6s2fQGIw[/YOUTUBE]

[mraia1]

It is your responsibility to spread the word of christ. That is your bible given duty as a christian.

Other than the aforementioned "Lunatic Fringe" of abortion nuts, gay wedding nuts, and other fundamentalists, I have never seen anybody go up to anybody else and tell them they are going to burn in hell. In fact the only people who have ever confronted me are the Jehovahs Witnesses, and thats only because they ring my door bell. I simply ask them to leave...

Okie, where have You been that you have been confronted by wild eyed Christians screaming that your going to hell?? Were you just roaming around a mall or park, and were set upon by this ravenous horde of Christians hell bent on converting you? Sorry. I dont believe it has happened, UNLESS you were at some kind of demonstration or rally. In which case, you were there expressing YOUR opinion, so you should have been prepared to hear THEIR opinion.
That being said, you said in an earlier post that its your duty to Illuminate the "lambs". Why? Sounds to me like your preaching your particular belief system on non-belief. How very kind of you to spread your knowledge. How very Messianic, also. Seems to me your as guilty of preaching your position as the manic Christians that you seem to be such a target of.
As you can tell, theres a real sarcastic tone to all this, because I consider YOU to be brainwashed. Not because you dont believe in God. Thats cool, and I dont care. No I think your brainwashed because you feel like YOU alone have the answers, that you think those that dont agree with you are lesser. You strike me as a pretty nice, young guy with a strong streak of self righteosness and entitlement. Like many young people in this country.

As far as beer on Sundays. Tough. I can buy beer here in NY any time I want. Frankly, I feel anybody who chooses to stay in an area where their actions are dictated to by arcane blue laws is a meek lamb without the foresight and self respect to believe in themselves and their God given right to purchase beer, and move the {censored} out of whatever Hick town it is that they live in. Its my duty, as an informed, elitist New Yorker who enjoys booze on Sunday mornings, to tell you that your brainwashed into thinking that you need to stay in that town. Dont be a lamb. God wants you to have beer on Sundays.

Just trying to prove a point Okie. No malice intended.

[Cross Eyed Mary]

Yeah, at least Christians don't wake me up at 7 AM. No sense in burning in hell with no sleep.

[mraia1]

Yeah, at least Christians don't wake me up at 7 AM. No sense in burning in hell with no sleep.

Right! If your gonna burn, you might as well be well rested for it:thu:

[soundcreation]

One of my favorite web sites...

 

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

 

(Of course that will probably cause many of you to avoid it...)

 

You know the idea that Christians are "so hard done by" or have it tough is just quite simply a joke. Christians have never had a tough time in america.

 

Every time some one has brought up a legitimate point of organized Christians trying to influence other peoples lives, the christians posting either ignore it or call it the "lunatic fringe". But that is just totally absurd.

 

There are still sodomy laws on the books in many states making homosexuality illegal. Gays cannot receive the same rights as others in america re marrige and adoption etc....This is BECAUSE of christian attitudes. And it is nothing more than discrimination...plain and simple...no matter how hard they try to dress it up in "family values" bull{censored} arguments. Do yourselves a favor and watch MILK. Sadly a few gays on TV haven't changed the reality of life for so many people.

 

Christians all over america try to get pseudo sciences taught in schools. Creationism...what a joke....they claim to want a "balanced" view taught but of course they don't want any other religions to be taught either. How about native american beliefs about creation? Children have a right to be free from religious beliefs when they go to tax payer funded schools. Teach that stuff to them in you churches if you want.

 

The extreme ones murder doctors.

 

The moderates protest against abortion and support laws that deny freedom. You don't believe in abortion? Fine. Don't have one. But YOU are not the morality police. YOU aren't even YOUR OWN God's police....you believe it's a sin? Fine....if you truly believe that, then you must believe that your god will deal with the sinner....so stay the f out of it, because you have ZERO right's to tell some one else what to do unless they somehow inhibit your freedoms.

 

Christians try to boycott entertainment they don't like. PMRC and the like have their sick little agendas to deny YOU the freedom to see and hear what you want. The Film ratings board is accountable to nobody and is staffed by many Christians who try to tell you what to see. Watch "this film is not yet rated" to see how this sick little organization works.

 

I live in a non christian country and I see christian missionaries ALL the time here hassling the population trying to get them to convert.

 

If you are a christian that believes everyone has the right and FREEDOM to believe what they want without influence and everyone in society should have the same inalienable rights...then I commend you for your open mindedness. I hope you use that open mindedness when it comes time to vote for laws that would grant people who do things differently from you..their freedoms.

 

But don't tell me that the "other" christians are some small minority. They are not. They are a huge voting block with a huge amount of power. I do have to give them credit for being well organized. Something atheists could learn from.

[mraia1]

One of my favorite web sites... http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ (Of course that will probably cause many of you to avoid it...) You know the idea that Christians are "so hard done by" or have it tough is just quite simply a joke. Christians have never had a tough time in america. Every time some one has brought up a legitimate point of organized Christians trying to influence other peoples lives, the christians posting either ignore it or call it the "lunatic fringe". But that is just totally absurd. There are still sodomy laws on the books in many states making homosexuality illegal. Gays cannot receive the same rights as others in america re marrige and adoption etc....This is BECAUSE of christian attitudes. And it is nothing more than discrimination...plain and simple...no matter how hard they try to dress it up in "family values" bull{censored} arguments. Do yourselves a favor and watch MILK. Sadly a few gays on TV haven't changed the reality of life for so many people. Christians all over america try to get pseudo sciences taught in schools. Creationism...what a joke....they claim to want a "balanced" view taught but of course they don't want any other religions to be taught either. How about native american beliefs about creation? Children have a right to be free from religious beliefs when they go to tax payer funded schools. Teach that stuff to them in you churches if you want. The extreme ones murder doctors. The moderates protest against abortion and support laws that deny freedom. You don't believe in abortion? Fine. Don't have one. But YOU are not the morality police. YOU aren't even YOUR OWN God's police....you believe it's a sin? Fine....if you truly believe that, then you must believe that your god will deal with the sinner....so stay the f out of it, because you have ZERO right's to tell some one else what to do unless they somehow inhibit your freedoms. Christians try to boycott entertainment they don't like. PMRC and the like have their sick little agendas to deny YOU the freedom to see and hear what you want. The Film ratings board is accountable to nobody and is staffed by many Christians who try to tell you what to see. Watch "this film is not yet rated" to see how this sick little organization works. I live in a non christian country and I see christian missionaries ALL the time here hassling the population trying to get them to convert. If you are a christian that believes everyone has the right and FREEDOM to believe what they want without influence and everyone in society should have the same inalienable rights...then I commend you for your open mindedness. I hope you use that open mindedness when it comes time to vote for laws that would grant people who do things differently from you..their freedoms. But don't tell me that the "other" christians are some small minority. They are not. They are a huge voting block with a huge amount of power. I do have to give them credit for being well organized. Something atheists could learn from.

 

 

 

Thats well said, and I agree with you on 90% of what you say. Unfortunately, or Fortunately, depending on your point of view, until fairly recently, America was for all intents and purposes a Christian country. Religious freedom, sure. But mainly this country was founded upon Christian morals and mores. There are extremists in every religion that ruin it for others. Islam, anybody? Talk about the corruption of a beautiful faith...

 

Yes, the religious right is a huge voting block. Yes they vote or support things that are specious and exclusionary. I hate them as much as the next guy. What Im saying is, majority rules. If the country wanted Gay Marriage and Sodomy laws repealed, they would have them repealed. But, we keep electing politicians who still believe in this crap, so the laws stick.

You say the atheists need to be better organized. Perhaps so. They need to get their act together.

 

Like I said, I agree with your arguments about creationism, gays, etc. However, things ARE changing.

 

By the way, every organized religion has their own missionaries trying to spread the word.

 

I suppose all I really care about in this particular discussion is that generalities and insults are thrown around without a care. We're all guilty.

[Cross Eyed Mary]

One of my favorite web sites... http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ (Of course that will probably cause many of you to avoid it...) You know the idea that Christians are "so hard done by" or have it tough is just quite simply a joke. Christians have never had a tough time in america. Every time some one has brought up a legitimate point of organized Christians trying to influence other peoples lives, the christians posting either ignore it or call it the "lunatic fringe". But that is just totally absurd. There are still sodomy laws on the books in many states making homosexuality illegal. Gays cannot receive the same rights as others in america re marrige and adoption etc....This is BECAUSE of christian attitudes. And it is nothing more than discrimination...plain and simple...no matter how hard they try to dress it up in "family values" bull{censored} arguments. Do yourselves a favor and watch MILK. Sadly a few gays on TV haven't changed the reality of life for so many people. Christians all over america try to get pseudo sciences taught in schools. Creationism...what a joke....they claim to want a "balanced" view taught but of course they don't want any other religions to be taught either. How about native american beliefs about creation? Children have a right to be free from religious beliefs when they go to tax payer funded schools. Teach that stuff to them in you churches if you want. The extreme ones murder doctors. The moderates protest against abortion and support laws that deny freedom. You don't believe in abortion? Fine. Don't have one. But YOU are not the morality police. YOU aren't even YOUR OWN God's police....you believe it's a sin? Fine....if you truly believe that, then you must believe that your god will deal with the sinner....so stay the f out of it, because you have ZERO right's to tell some one else what to do unless they somehow inhibit your freedoms. Christians try to boycott entertainment they don't like. PMRC and the like have their sick little agendas to deny YOU the freedom to see and hear what you want. The Film ratings board is accountable to nobody and is staffed by many Christians who try to tell you what to see. Watch "this film is not yet rated" to see how this sick little organization works. I live in a non christian country and I see christian missionaries ALL the time here hassling the population trying to get them to convert. If you are a christian that believes everyone has the right and FREEDOM to believe what they want without influence and everyone in society should have the same inalienable rights...then I commend you for your open mindedness. I hope you use that open mindedness when it comes time to vote for laws that would grant people who do things differently from you..their freedoms. But don't tell me that the "other" christians are some small minority. They are not. They are a huge voting block with a huge amount of power. I do have to give them credit for being well organized. Something atheists could learn from.

 

 

What country do you live in? Just curious.

[Okieslims]

I never said they were screaming. Christian tell you these things with a smile on their face. That's part of what makes it so sick. I have seen them screaming this in some places though. Campus had a few nutters over the years and Mardis Gras had some people there trying to discourage sin via the ol "your gonna get it" method.

 

I live in the bible belt. Christians knock on my door to preach to me.

 

"Sounds to me like your preaching your particular belief system on non-belief."

 

Pretty much. I wait for the bait.. which is a christian trying to convert me or criticize my lack of belief.. then I try my damnedest to plant a seed of doubt in their heads.. not just a seed of doubt, but a pack of questions that will all dead end at "you just have to have faith".

That said, I do not go to their events, knock on their doors, or walk strait up to them and advise them that they are going to hell..I mean.. not going to heaven.

[YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE]

This is a fairly common mentality in the bible belt.

 

 

 

Now to beer on sundays.. that was just a small example.. we can go bigger if you like. Our election system is affected(fact.. we have never had a president that has not claimed a Christian based religion), our laws are therefore affected, and my life is then affected as a result.

 

 

With that said.. I'm not worried about people like you. The one foot in Christians. I am worried about Christians that take every word of the bible literally and as absolute fact. These are the people that feel it is their duty to spread their message at all cost.

Other than the aforementioned "Lunatic Fringe" of abortion nuts, gay wedding nuts, and other fundamentalists, I have never seen anybody go up to anybody else and tell them they are going to burn in hell. In fact the only people who have ever confronted me are the Jehovahs Witnesses, and thats only because they ring my door bell. I simply ask them to leave... Okie, where have You been that you have been confronted by wild eyed Christians screaming that your going to hell?? Were you just roaming around a mall or park, and were set upon by this ravenous horde of Christians hell bent on converting you? Sorry. I dont believe it has happened, UNLESS you were at some kind of demonstration or rally. In which case, you were there expressing YOUR opinion, so you should have been prepared to hear THEIR opinion. That being said, you said in an earlier post that its your duty to Illuminate the "lambs". Why? Sounds to me like your preaching your particular belief system on non-belief. How very kind of you to spread your knowledge. How very Messianic, also. Seems to me your as guilty of preaching your position as the manic Christians that you seem to be such a target of. As you can tell, theres a real sarcastic tone to all this, because I consider YOU to be brainwashed. Not because you dont believe in God. Thats cool, and I dont care. No I think your brainwashed because you feel like YOU alone have the answers, that you think those that dont agree with you are lesser. You strike me as a pretty nice, young guy with a strong streak of self righteosness and entitlement. Like many young people in this country. As far as beer on Sundays. Tough. I can buy beer here in NY any time I want. Frankly, I feel anybody who chooses to stay in an area where their actions are dictated to by arcane blue laws is a meek lamb without the foresight and self respect to believe in themselves and their God given right to purchase beer, and move the {censored} out of whatever Hick town it is that they live in. Its my duty, as an informed, elitist New Yorker who enjoys booze on Sunday mornings, to tell you that your brainwashed into thinking that you need to stay in that town. Dont be a lamb. God wants you to have beer on Sundays. Just trying to prove a point Okie. No malice intended.

[Longfuse]

I'm an atheist, but I live in a country where every level of society has been permeated by Christian values. How can it be otherwise when the church was so influential for hundreds of years? Our law, culture and morality are all influenced by the teachings of the Bible. I don't really have a problem with that as, by-and-large, those values are a fairly decent set of rules to live by (which is why they're common to other religions). I also like Christian concept of forgiveness - something that isn't common to all religions.

However, I consider myself lucky enough to live in a country that is fairly secular. There has been a separation of church and state in most of the main, northern European 'member states' within the EU. In England it started under Henry VIII; In France, during the revolution; and Germany under Hitler. That doesn't make our countries Godless, it just means that religion isn

[soundcreation]

 

Thats well said, and I agree with you on 90% of what you say. Unfortunately, or Fortunately, depending on your point of view, until fairly recently, America was for all intents and purposes a Christian country. Religious freedom, sure. But mainly this country was founded upon Christian morals and mores. There are extremists in every religion that ruin it for others. Islam, anybody? Talk about the corruption of a beautiful faith... Yes, the religious right is a huge voting block. Yes they vote or support things that are specious and exclusionary. I hate them as much as the next guy. What Im saying is, majority rules. If the country wanted Gay Marriage and Sodomy laws repealed, they would have them repealed. But, we keep electing politicians who still believe in this crap, so the laws stick. You say the atheists need to be better organized. Perhaps so. They need to get their act together. Like I said, I agree with your arguments about creationism, gays, etc. However, things ARE changing. By the way, every organized religion has their own missionaries trying to spread the word. I suppose all I really care about in this particular discussion is that generalities and insults are thrown around without a care. We're all guilty.

 

 

That's not totally true. The founding fathers were Deists and were virtually no where near what we think of as Christians. Sure they played that card in speeches for the crowds but I've seen many of their personal letters and things online where they are quite hostile to organized Christianity.

 

And yes I am just as critical of ALL religions.....fundamentalist islam is a mirror image of fundamentalist Christianity, catholicism, Judaism etc....

 

I think a lot of the problem is that americans really don't understand how their own system truly functions at this point. Propaganda in the US is the most sophisticated system ever developed. It makes Soviet propaganda look as primitive as it seemed. But it is obviously so effective that nearly every body on this board would probably deny it's existence. The christian right merged with the neo conservative corporate establishment in the 80's. It's been a cozy convenient relationship for both ever since. The christian right gets access to the power structure...and like you say, get's their politicians and polices pushed through....and the neo cons get the numbers they need to actually win elections and have their chicago school economic polices implemented. Meanwhile...because they control virtually every single source of major news media...they are able to "manage" debate into a nice little box where they define what can be said and what is accepted.

 

Meanwhile the average american (christian or otherwise) who doesn't want to "convert" the world.....is to worried about keeping their {censored}ing jobs and putting food on the table for the kids... to actually organize counter groups to stop said legislation. It's sad because when you actually look at polls of what americans want you see that they are FAR more left than they think they are and FAR more left than the representation they get from the Republicans or the Democrats. And yet it is through this propaganda system that convinces people to want what they really don't.

[Cross Eyed Mary]

Taiwan...neat. Born or migrated?

[slap happy drums]

So who's been working their rudiments?

 

Church of Paradiddle anyone?

 

Seriously , if this continues someone will get butt-hurt..........again.