Rudiment Question

[slap happy drums]

 

Buzz rolls are kind of useless in most music, TBH.

 

 

This is what you said , and what I took issue with.

They are far from useless.

[Stark]

 

This is what you said , and what I took issue with. They are far from useless.

 

 

Good, good. Now read the second half of my statement.

[slap happy drums]

WTF? that was your whole statement....?

[Stark]

"In most music," genius.

 

You can argue whatever you like until you're blue in the face, but the simple fact of the matter is that upwards of 90% of music - even with a drummer, let's exclude drum-machine pop here - lacks a buzz roll in any way, shape or form.

 

You can go on to list the genres of music (I know them already; don't bother) in which the drummers DO utilize a lot of crushed rolls, but the point I was trying to make in the beginning of this thread, that buzz rolls are useless in MOST music today regardless of how YOU feel about that music, is completely valid and true.

 

I'm pretty sure I have nothing more to say on the matter; unless you come up with something both factual and contradictory to what I've actually stated (hint: not what you can twist my words into in a lame attempt to make yourself "right"), I'm done here. I think if you put shock over the negativity of my original statement aside, you'd find that we actually disagree on very little. I just think a beginner drummer has better things to spend their time on than crushed rolls, like some basic flam rudiments, or something.

[slap happy drums]

OK Genius , you can use a roll in any genre not just the ones on the list in your head that I don't need to mention (doesn't that list in your head make my arguments case well enough?) , buzz rolls happen , and I'm not sure how or why you're getting so butt hurt.

 

You have to realize that your idea of MOST music and everyone else's is different.

 

People use Buzz rolls all the damn time , sometimes at length sometimes shorter versions , hell I rarely play a proper drag I almost always play a multiple bounce lead-in opposed to a proper double stroke (and I'm not alone people do it all the time)

 

Besides all of that , it's a great technique to learn cause you gain an immense amount of control and in the end you can play a friggen drum roll.

 

One of the best lessons I ever got was from Colin Bailey , he said "If you can't drop your stick and let it bounce I've got nothing to teach you." as a teenager that really pissed me off , but he was right , there's a whole world of good stuff waiting for folks once they learn the kind of control it takes to do a good multiple bounce roll.

Now as a teacher I give every student on their first day a basic rock beat , Stick Control page #5 , and the basic recipe for learning a buzz roll. The ones that chose to practice the buzz rolls and the stick control learn much faster and on average become better drummers than the ones that only practice the rock beats.

 

But really , my final point:

If buzz rolls were basically useless in most music they wouldn't be on the list of 7 essential drum rudiments , end of argument.....Unless you really think you know better than the PAS. ({censored} what am, I saying of course you know better than the PAS who the hell are they to compare to your blistering knowledge of rudimental application in most music):poke::poke:

 

 

Just relax cause it's all good bro , if I was wrong you wouldn't know what a buzz roll was let alone be able to play one.

[Longfuse]

http://www.keynotesmagazine.com/article/?uid=120

 

When the first generation of drum machines to feature a 'roll function' came out, the 'effect' started to get used a lot in popular music. Although with machines that were velocity sensitive you could sculpt the pretend-roll into something resembling an actual roll, most programmers didn't. What you heard was a quick succession of hits, all with the same velocity. The effect became prevalent in dance/drum and bass etc, and actual drummers, who've grown up with that music, strive to copy that sound. Perverse when you consider that the roll feature was intended to copy a buzz roll.

 

There's no reason why any drummer couldn't incorporate buzz rolls into any style of music they're playing. Why pigeonhole stuff? Be creative. Anyone coming from a Jazz angle will realise the significance of buzz rolls. Art Blakey rocked...er, sort of (Jazzed?)

[Cross Eyed Mary]

{censored}, i've heard buzz rolls in everything from Led Zeppelin to The Rollins Band.

[zarazabas]

 

Sorry, I don't give actual responses to posts filled with nothing but assumptions, stereotypes, and baseless insults.

 

 

Heh, ironic coming from you. Good job you don't have to respond to your own posts.

[danrothmusic]

I wouldn't say that learning all of them is essential, but learning the basic rudiments is. Even if you don't incorporate them into fills all the time, it still helps you gain stick control, finesse and a sense of rhythm and tempo. Like a couple of people have said, the drummers who take their time and learn the rudiments generally sound better and are more versatile drummers.

[soundcreation]

this is entertaining. Like watching springer.

[slap happy drums]

I was about to start throwing chairs , but it looks like they're bolted down now.

[1001gear]

Quite a buzz for no such thing...

uh, Weckl, ghost buzzes. Most jazzers throw 'em in as well. Mangini does what looks for all the world like a full ghosty buzz roll, single handed. Doesn't even seem real.

[slap happy drums]

I use single buzzes all over the place.

[1001gear]

Me too, as backbeats even; a habit from the Ruddy Bitch era.

[Miskatonic]

(Whistles as he goes back to the practice pad)

[rdrummer322]

It all depends on whether you want to be a musician or a timekeeper.

Drumming, IMHO, is a craft to be learned. Learning the rudiments for a drummer is like learning scales on a piano, it is part of muscle memory that needs developed.

You are right, much of popular music doesn't require a knowledge of rudimentary drumming, it is mostly time keeping. Does that mean you shouldn't spend hours upon hours getting them down? No. Do it anyway, as a favor to yourself and to the idea of drumming in general.

I spend a lot of time doing rudiments with my feet, carrying a normal beat with my hands. Will I ever use them? Maybe not. Is it making me a better musician? Yes.

In what I do, I find that hand independence is essential. It is literally impossible to play what I'm trying to do without a foundation in rudimentary skills. Did I know 10 years ago this was what the direction I was going to go in my drumming? No. Am I glad I worked on my rudiments all my life? Without a doubt.

[JohnCav]

Singles, flams, paraddidles, double, and buzzes are what are most important to me atm. After listening to Gavin Harrison that opened me up to alot of the other jazzy kinda players, like Steve Gadd. Since them Ive been throwing in alot of ghost note buzzes with my left hand.

[1001gear]

 

It all depends on whether you want to be a musician or a timekeeper. Drumming, IMHO, is a craft to be learned. Learning the rudiments for a drummer is like learning scales on a piano, it is part of muscle memory that needs developed. You are right, much of popular music doesn't require a knowledge of rudimentary drumming, it is mostly time keeping. Does that mean you shouldn't spend hours upon hours getting them down? No. Do it anyway, as a favor to yourself and to the idea of drumming in general. I spend a lot of time doing rudiments with my feet, carrying a normal beat with my hands. Will I ever use them? Maybe not. Is it making me a better musician? Yes. In what I do, I find that hand independence is essential. It is literally impossible to play what I'm trying to do without a foundation in rudimentary skills. Did I know 10 years ago this was what the direction I was going to go in my drumming? No. Am I glad I worked on my rudiments all my life? Without a doubt.

 

 

 

 

There shouldn't be a distinction between musician and timekeeper. Music is seldom about the drums. Playing simple parts with good time and feel is as musical as it gets. Playing diddly parts without the intellect to musicalize the implications is as banal as it gets.

[cdawg]

 

There shouldn't be a distinction between musician and timekeeper. Music is seldom about the drums. Playing simple parts with good time and feel is as musical as it gets. Playing diddly parts without the intellect to musicalize the implications is as banal as it gets.

 

 

no offense, but +1.

 

i've heard plenty of guitar and bass players, as an example, who had plenty of skills, that just didn't cut it in a "musical" sense, or at least butchered songs for the sake of an almost mathmatical approach to music. not that approach is bad, it just loses the feel, for me.

 

i guess a better example would be a bass player who follows a guitarist, exclusively. he's playing the parts, sure, but we all know there's more to just playing the notes.

[Miskatonic]

 

It all depends on whether you want to be a musician or a timekeeper. Drumming, IMHO, is a craft to be learned. Learning the rudiments for a drummer is like learning scales on a piano, it is part of muscle memory that needs developed. You are right, much of popular music doesn't require a knowledge of rudimentary drumming, it is mostly time keeping. Does that mean you shouldn't spend hours upon hours getting them down? No. Do it anyway, as a favor to yourself and to the idea of drumming in general. I spend a lot of time doing rudiments with my feet, carrying a normal beat with my hands. Will I ever use them? Maybe not. Is it making me a better musician? Yes. In what I do, I find that hand independence is essential. It is literally impossible to play what I'm trying to do without a foundation in rudimentary skills. Did I know 10 years ago this was what the direction I was going to go in my drumming? No. Am I glad I worked on my rudiments all my life? Without a doubt.

 

 

I'm most interested in writing songs as a serious hobby, and want to be able to play everything that I write, both because it allows me to mess around and come up with things (instead of just brainstorming things in my head and plugging them into a music writing program) as well as being able to play some songs that I like that were written by other artists.

 

I don't plan on becoming a professional musician as teaching is my desired profession, and if luck plays a part, a professional screenplay writer.

 

I enjoy practicing the rudiments, I just didn't know when I should start translating them to a kit, or if I should be doing that side by side as I go along.

[slap happy drums]

learn it on one sound source then move it around as you see fit.

[1001gear]

no offense, but +1.

 

eeEEoo. What's that 1 thing. Get it off me. Creepy little buggers.

 

[Carminemw]

 

{censored}, i've heard buzz rolls in everything from Led Zeppelin to The Rollins Band.

 

 

There goes the popular music counter point...you don't get much more popular that those two bands. (I think even Ringo may have used the buzz during the Sgt Pepper days.)

 

Whew! And as dawn breaks and the loons (err geese) gentlly make their way to shore, gliding over the clear water of the lake of happiness, once again we come to the conclusion that it is what it is, it was what it was, it shall be what it shall be. Che sera sera....uh hum. But let me throw out another point that was briefly touched on way back when by 1001 and give you a plausible example.

 

The music containing buzz rolls, rudiments, blasts...seem to stem from the time period we live(d) in, grew up with, tend to listen too.

 

Point:

Me too, as backbeats even; a habit from the Ruddy Bitch era.

 

 

During the Rich era and the big band jazz days, buzz rolls were very prominent in ALL popular music! I grew up myself at the tail end of the 50's into the 60's...consequently the focus of most drumming styles was built on the hand techniques (along with military rudiments) It was all coordination type stuff, and the music of the day supported it. That was what was popular.

 

You could say the same thing in the 60's and 70's for the "16th note triplets around the toms" thing we heard in all the popular music of that era. Go listen to the classic digida digida digida digida of any Grand Funk tune and you'll know that for that time (here we go FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME FROM ME) "that was the s..t!"....then! We all learned to do it...and the pluthera of variations to boot!

 

Then came "the feet era" where double kicks took on more of a dominant profile as opposed to what had been up to then, more ornamental than not. Double kicks were really developed in soloing back then (Ginger Baker, Carmine Appice...and yes from the other spectrum with Louie Bellson) but it still sounded more like chugachugachugachugachuga rather than the dominant Peart/Portnoy extravaganzas we hear today.

 

But buzz rolls and rudiments have lasted far longer in the grand scheme of things than one can imagine...and not just in the ornamental military genre. They crop up in every style of music, just not as often as I'd like to see personally. Dominant or not, they are there and as you all have said...a valuable viable tool!

[rdrummer322]

 

There shouldn't be a distinction between musician and timekeeper. Music is seldom about the drums. Playing simple parts with good time and feel is as musical as it gets. Playing diddly parts without the intellect to musicalize the implications is as banal as it gets.

 

 

I think I was misunderstood. I did not mean to put down the ability to hold a nice groove. I was talking about those drummers that learn how to carry a beat for a band and that's it. I've met a few, didn't know what a paradiddle was and didn't care, just bang the 2 and 4, maybe learn how to do some RLRL sticking (maybe). They achieved their goal of being in a band and stopped learning how to play. Those are drummers I call just time-keepers, and really if that is what you want there is nothing wrong with it.

 

We won't even get in to whether or not a drummer should learn to read music!

[1001gear]

Don't mind me. Typing too much thinking. I grunt a lot.