What's wrong with staying in the pocket?

[mis5dis6gis7]

Ringo did it.

I don't get all the frills sometimes.

[BeakerArk]

absolutely nothing wrong w/ it at all. . .

[Chunkaway]

Not a damn thing wrong with staying in the pocket. I really like crazy, off beat, kinetic stuff, but I LOVE a simple solid groove that gets people dancing and shaking what they got. To me, that is the best.

[k7mto]

It's where I live.

[cearleywine]

Erskine, Gadd, and most any fusion or jazz drummer can do frills while way deep in the pocket.

[Cross Eyed Mary]

I'm really getting sick of this "in the pocket" bull{censored}.

 

Theres only 2 types of music. Good music and bad music. Period.

What you people are doing is no different than when reverse racists simplify {censored} to "white people" and "everyone else".

 

If someone decides to play busier, that does not make them a lesser drummer. There isn't some hip knowledge that they don't "get". It's a musical decision. If playing in the pocket was the most right way to do things, it'd be the way EVERYONE did it.

 

I love The Mars Volta and Jon Theodore, i don't want to hear Levon playing drums for them. As much as he's revered, he COULDN'T play drums for them. And i sure as {censored} don't want Jon playing in The Band.

 

This pocket being played in is completely subjective. Jon WAS in the pocket when you look at the musical landscape TMV provided for him. John and Paul weren't exactly shredders, WTF else could Ringo have done with those simple ass bass lines? Both played musically and completely fit with their bandmates, they just played wildly different music.

 

So, yes, i DO get the frills. Music shouldn't be about holding back so you can claim some sandbagger superiority. And on the other hand, i DO get less is more. I get music in general, and hate to simplify it into some BS black and white terms like "in the pocket" and "too many frills".

 

And please people, quit acting like there's poor pocket players being burned at the stake by gospel chops kids. Nobody is persecuting you. You aren't martyrs.

[cearleywine]

well put.

[faileddrummer]

Ringo did it.

 

You answered your own question .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mis5dis6gis7]

 

I'm really getting sick of this "in the pocket" bull{censored}. Theres only 2 types of music. Good music and bad music. Period. What you people are doing is no different than when reverse racists simplify {censored} to "white people" and "everyone else". If someone decides to play busier, that does not make them a lesser drummer. There isn't some hip knowledge that they don't "get". It's a musical decision. If playing in the pocket was the most right way to do things, it'd be the way EVERYONE did it. I love The Mars Volta and Jon Theodore, i don't want to hear Levon playing drums for them. As much as he's revered, he COULDN'T play drums for them. And i sure as {censored} don't want Jon playing in The Band. This pocket being played in is completely subjective. Jon WAS in the pocket when you look at the musical landscape TMV provided for him. John and Paul weren't exactly shredders, WTF else could Ringo have done with those simple ass bass lines? Both played musically and completely fit with their bandmates, they just played wildly different music. So, yes, i DO get the frills. Music shouldn't be about holding back so you can claim some sandbagger superiority. And on the other hand, i DO get less is more. I get music in general, and hate to simplify it into some BS black and white terms like "in the pocket" and "too many frills". And please people, quit acting like there's poor pocket players being burned at the stake by gospel chops kids. Nobody is persecuting you. You aren't martyrs.

 

 

I don't you're taking into account the people that add the frills where they shouldn't be.

I'm not saying frills are bad. Just curious why so many people assume someone (Ringo) is a bad drummer because they do stay in the pocket.

Again, not everyone thinks this obviously, but you have to admit there are a lot of people who do think that way.

[Cross Eyed Mary]

So, should there be some elite panel who decides what the allowed number of notes should be?

 

Ringo is a legend, he's not going away because some dip{censored} who sucks at drums thinks he's lousy.

It's art people. Let it suck, or let it rock.

[mis5dis6gis7]

[Chunkaway]

I'm really getting sick of this "in the pocket" bull{censored}. Theres only 2 types of music. Good music and bad music. Period. What you people are doing is no different than when reverse racists simplify {censored} to "white people" and "everyone else". If someone decides to play busier, that does not make them a lesser drummer. There isn't some hip knowledge that they don't "get". It's a musical decision. If playing in the pocket was the most right way to do things, it'd be the way EVERYONE did it. I love The Mars Volta and Jon Theodore, i don't want to hear Levon playing drums for them. As much as he's revered, he COULDN'T play drums for them. And i sure as {censored} don't want Jon playing in The Band. This pocket being played in is completely subjective. Jon WAS in the pocket when you look at the musical landscape TMV provided for him. John and Paul weren't exactly shredders, WTF else could Ringo have done with those simple ass bass lines? Both played musically and completely fit with their bandmates, they just played wildly different music. So, yes, i DO get the frills. Music shouldn't be about holding back so you can claim some sandbagger superiority. And on the other hand, i DO get less is more. I get music in general, and hate to simplify it into some BS black and white terms like "in the pocket" and "too many frills". And please people, quit acting like there's poor pocket players being burned at the stake by gospel chops kids. Nobody is persecuting you. You aren't martyrs.

 

Whoa, I'm going to guess this topic hit a nerve with you. :poke: Like you said, it's each person's choice, and each person reacts differently to that choice. If people don't get that, hell with 'em.

 

I agree with your comment that pocket players are not being maligned, but I also don't think there are a bunch of Motown devotees running around burning Jojo Mayer wannabes at the stake either. This topic gets overblown so quickly-hell I have certainly been guilty of getting worked up in a lather.

 

I like Ringo and Jojo Mayer and Charlie Watts and Keith Moon and Bonham and Vinnie. Doesn't bother me a bit if someone doesn't like those guys. Now, when people start slamming on someone, I may find that disrespectful and say my peace, but that's about it.

[Cross Eyed Mary]

I don't side with either camp. I appreciate all of them. It just seems lately i'm hearing "too much" too often lately. It's music, not cocaine, you can't overdose on notes. And if you could i'd still blast some Mahavishnu while my friends wiped the foam off my mouth and prepared to pull a Mrs. Wallace on my chest. Live a little.

[1001gear]

There's a very precarious zone where the goods is - no matter you play hot or cool. It's surrounded by unpredictable pockets of boring and dangerous stretches of sux.

If you play on the cool side, you generate musical interest by artfully placed variation. Miss the moment, and you gotta negotiate the BORING or risk a rough one through the SUX.

 

If you play on the hot side, you generate musical interest through wit and cleverness. Generally if you aren't a genius, you will expend all your aesthetic allotment negotiating the SUX.

 

If you care about the 'music' then neither way is to be taken lightly.

[aenemated]

i just kinda play what i think i should and if it sucks, either me or the band tells me and i play something different.

 

i don't think about it very much.

 

i dunno if i'm in the pocket or not. sometimes i play really busy and sometimes i don't. but a lot of bitches dance their ass off to what i'm doin either way and i don't miss changes and my time is solid, so i reckon i'm doin something right.

 

carry on.

[boxofrocks]

Most guitar players that hate guitar solos, can't do them. It's a musician thing.

It's not a bad thing or something to be ashamed of not being able to pull off a solo or crazy fill, so I don't understand why some have to make excuses for things they need to practice more. Honestly I have never met a musician that could pull off that wicked crazy {censored}, but wouldn't, because he didn't like it, he preferred playing rhythm guitar instead.. Whatever...

[1001gear]

Well, take Yngwie. Encyclopedia of technique.

Also bad playing. Many many many have the fingers. Most stick to what feels good.

[soundcreation]

It's like the "shred" argument over in the guitar forum.

 

Usually what it comes down to, is it's an argument to disguise what kind of music people like.

 

So when people make threads saying, "what's with shredders and all their weddly deedly notes.... XYZ blues guitarist plays one note with more feel than XYZ shredder"....It's really just code for "I like classic rock/blues and I don't like technically skilled modern players and their music." The reverse does happen with a little less frequency.

 

This drum argument is the same and it's nonsensical. CEM is right.

[soundcreation]

 

Well, take Yngwie. Encyclopedia of technique. Also bad playing. Many many many have the fingers. Most stick to what feels good.

 

 

but that is just your opinion. And you should state it as such. Many love yngwie's playing and it moves them way more than someone like Clapton. They are not wrong.

 

And I'm no Yngwie fan...but he is FAR FAR from a bad player. In fact I can't think of any guitarist who plays fast stuff as fluidly and musically as he does. I'm just not into neo classical so to ME it doesn't sound as good.

[1001gear]

Yeah, he can operate a distorted guitar. I'm tempted to call it a personal vibrator in his case. BUT, and this is not so much an opinion as it is a conclusion based on centuries of performance refinement - including the stuff he butchers; He doesn't even scratch the surface when it comes to music.

 

Put him in front of any jury. Opinion me arse.

[drumtechdad]

Well, the two are not mutually exclusive, of course. Like CEM, I like both when they serve the music, and that happens often enough to disprove that they can't coexist.

 

This argument will ever surface as long as there are players with more chops than musical taste, or even sense. Which means forever.

 

And the argument takes place in the classical music world, too. Plenty of windup-toy technical wizards with no soul.

[RumStik]

Yeah, it always irks me when someone says, "time to put down the prog rock." Why? I enjoy all kinds of music and drumming. Maybe you have to leave something you've enjoyed behind in order to find new ground, but apparently that's your own capacity issue. When it's done right, complex rock crammed full of gratuitous notes can really get me off, and I can slide from there right into funk, or soul, or "roots," or Ringo-rock. If you only have room for one, then pick one and shut up.

[RumStik]

 

Yeah, he can operate a distorted guitar. I'm tempted to call it a personal vibrator in his case. BUT, and this is not so much an opinion as it is a conclusion based on centuries of performance refinement - including the stuff he butchers; He doesn't even scratch the surface when it comes to music. Put him in front of any jury.

 

 

A valid assessment...perhaps even dead-on accurate...but...everyone is free to hold a given performance up against criteria they themselves set. If all your musicians are subject to jury approval, that's cool, but you're gonna miss a lot of enjoyable noise.

 

It's your call.

 

And mine.

 

And his.

 

And his too...

[skinthrasher]

I love to play on the pocket far too often mine has a hole in it:cry:

[soundcreation]

Yeah, he can operate a distorted guitar. I'm tempted to call it a personal vibrator in his case. BUT, and this is not so much an opinion as it is a conclusion based on centuries of performance refinement - including the stuff he butchers; He doesn't even scratch the surface when it comes to music. Put him in front of any jury. Opinion me arse.

 

 

 

 

 

Me thinks your personal bias is clouding your judgment. So I'll torture you a bit.

 

[YOUTUBE]Fn6-XqmkKUA&[/YOUTUBE]

 

I think this one goes a long way to proving the guy is as well trained as any classical musician out there and this also has a lot of feel. Not to mention how in the pocket he is with the orchestra. Yes a lot of notes but he's never off.

 

You only say he butchers it because you personally don't like the sound of a distorted guitar in classical. But he far from butchers the above performance.

 

And if that's too much to handle for the classic rock crowd then there is this..

 

[YOUTUBE]a4l1Jk3ZCb4[/YOUTUBE]

 

This is very good blues with some great feel. He has a couple "Yngwie moments" where he gets a bit crazy but his bends are beautiful and his phrasing is fantastic. If it were Jeff Beck doing the exact same thing people would drool over it like it was the greatest thing ever.