RE: "Issues with drummer" thread

[FitchFY]

When I play with a band, and maybe it's just me, I make it clear to them: "I'm the drummer. I'm laying tempo and feel. Y'all are coming with me."

My calendar stays full - to each their own!

[kmart]

This is an age-old discussion. IMO, everyone contributes to tempo, but the drummer is ultimately responsible. If you have someone who has NO timing skills, then you end up with tempo issues .

 

 

Nope; THEY end up with tempo issues.

 

I understand where you're coming from in that an individual who has bad time, etc. will affect the entire ensemble.

But that's THEIR issue to fix, ultimately.

 

I'm not above giving some constructive criticism to someone who always speeds up or slows down, or who isn't able to keep solid time. I'll give them all the help/assistance I reasonably can, in fact; but it still isn't, nor ever will be, MY problem.

 

 

Riddle me this: how can a drummer ultimately be responsible for tempo on a song that starts with guitar only for 32 bars, for exampe? Or a song with a middle section or bridge that has zero drums in it?

That's not mine or your responsibility, is it?

[1001gear]

Count it off and chick or click along. In the second instance, a simple lead in would do. If things go off the scale without drums, it would be acceptable to play time through the rests. Clapping would work as well.

[johnbe]

I'm not sure how playing off beat can be acceptable, but I recognize that music has changed from the 60's rock I cut my teeth on. Musicianship used to be important with all instruments being synchronized to the beat. Vocal quality was expected as well. Also, it was understood that the drummers job to keep steady time. Now I read these elements are no longer always always a requirement. Steady time will remain one of my goals, no matter what becomes acceptable.

[manoeuver]

here we come to the distinction between responsibility and problem. If I park my car with the left front wheel on somebody's chest, that's my responsibility. but when you get down to the nitty-gritty, it ain't my problem.

 

Good time is a desirable attribute in any musician. The ability to overpower other musicians' {censored}ty time is an often necessary attribute that a strong drummer will possess.

[danrothmusic]

 

the drummer is ultimately responsible.

 

 

What do you mean by this? If the singer can't stay on tempo, then it's our fault?

[kmart]

Count it off and chick or click along. In the second instance, a simple lead in would do. If things go off the scale without drums, it would be acceptable to play time through the rests. Clapping would work as well.

 

 

CAN do any of that, of course, however intrusive it may/will be to the song itself.

 

However, by choice, WON'T do that in most instances, because it is, or is likely to be intrusive to the song itself.

 

Again, it's not not my/your responsibility to make up for someone else's shortcomings.

Perhaps you are ok playing with others who require you to act as a crutch for them.

I choose not to; if someone can't keep close enough time on their own, I'd never stand playing with them. It's like them not being able to even tune; inexcusable.

[cearleywine]

 

if someone can't keep close enough time on their own, I'd never stand playing with them. It's like them not being able to even tune; inexcusable.

 

 

+1, afterall we are discussing perhaps the first fundamental of playing music. I had a band teacher ask me once "what's worse, being off time or playing the wrong note?". He explained it's better to be on time because either way the note will be wrong.

[lsits]

When we do "Summer of 69" the lead player would always lose the beat during the break. I now play quarter notes on the hi hat to help him out. Not that big a deal. Audience doesn't seem to notice.

[rdrummer322]

It is not the drummer's responsibility to "keep" time, it is his responsibility to "create" time. If a song needs to speed up a couple bpm to create tension, or slow a couble bpm for a softer passage, it it the drummer's duty to lead the way. But that is talking about dynamics and I'm afraid that is something long forgotten in today's music. Music should be allowed to breathe, not be locked into a set click track. A conductor doesn't worry about keeping perfect time as he/she is conducting, the feel of the song is too important for that.
Try setting a metronome on any of the old stuff. By the end of the song you will be no where close, yet really have no idea where the beats were lost because the groove never left, the beat seemed rock solid. It was all about the band following the drummer's creative use of time.

[Buckin Fastard]

It is not the drummer's responsibility to "keep" time, it is his responsibility to "create" time. If a song needs to speed up a couple bpm to create tension, or slow a couble bpm for a softer passage, it it the drummer's duty to lead the way. But that is talking about dynamics and I'm afraid that is something long forgotten in today's music. Music should be allowed to breathe, not be locked into a set click track. A conductor doesn't worry about keeping perfect time as he/she is conducting, the feel of the song is too important for that. Try setting a metronome on any of the old stuff. By the end of the song you will be no where close, yet really have no idea where the beats were lost because the groove never left, the beat seemed rock solid. It was all about the band following the drummer's creative use of time.

 

 

Ok. I'm feelin' this.

[1001gear]

CAN do any of that, of course, however intrusive it may/will be to the song itself. However, by choice, WON'T do that in most instances, because it is, or is likely to be intrusive to the song itself. Again, it's not not my/your responsibility to make up for someone else's shortcomings. Perhaps you are ok playing with others who require you to act as a crutch for them. I choose not to; if someone can't keep close enough time on their own, I'd never stand playing with them. It's like them not being able to even tune; inexcusable.

 

 

If you have the option of climbing to clear air, sure.

[cdawg]

 

It is not the drummer's responsibility to "keep" time, it is his responsibility to "create" time. If a song needs to speed up a couple bpm to create tension, or slow a couble bpm for a softer passage, it it the drummer's duty to lead the way. But that is talking about dynamics and I'm afraid that is something long forgotten in today's music. Music should be allowed to breathe, not be locked into a set click track. A conductor doesn't worry about keeping perfect time as he/she is conducting, the feel of the song is too important for that. Try setting a metronome on any of the old stuff. By the end of the song you will be no where close, yet really have no idea where the beats were lost because the groove never left, the beat seemed rock solid. It was all about the band following the drummer's creative use of time.

 

 

first sound pile o' words yet.

[fusionfunk]

 

It is not the drummer's responsibility to "keep" time, it is his responsibility to "create" time. If a song needs to speed up a couple bpm to create tension, or slow a couble bpm for a softer passage, it it the drummer's duty to lead the way. But that is talking about dynamics and I'm afraid that is something long forgotten in today's music. Music should be allowed to breathe, not be locked into a set click track. A conductor doesn't worry about keeping perfect time as he/she is conducting, the feel of the song is too important for that. Try setting a metronome on any of the old stuff. By the end of the song you will be no where close, yet really have no idea where the beats were lost because the groove never left, the beat seemed rock solid. It was all about the band following the drummer's creative use of time.

 

 

I could not have said it any better. Very well put.

[manoeuver]

It is not the drummer's responsibility to "keep" time, it is his responsibility to "create" time. If a song needs to speed up a couple bpm to create tension, or slow a couble bpm for a softer passage, it it the drummer's duty to lead the way. But that is talking about dynamics and I'm afraid that is something long forgotten in today's music. Music should be allowed to breathe, not be locked into a set click track. A conductor doesn't worry about keeping perfect time as he/she is conducting, the feel of the song is too important for that. Try setting a metronome on any of the old stuff. By the end of the song you will be no where close, yet really have no idea where the beats were lost because the groove never left, the beat seemed rock solid. It was all about the band following the drummer's creative use of time.

oooh yeah, well said.

[1001gear]

here we come to the distinction between responsibility and problem . If I park my car with the left front wheel on somebody's chest, that's my responsibility. but when you get down to the nitty-gritty, it ain't my problem. Good time is a desirable attribute in any musician. The ability to overpower other musicians' {censored}ty time is an often necessary attribute that a strong drummer will possess.

 

 

I believe the expression: lol wutt? to be appropriate here.

 

Srsly though, three half assed veterans with lousy time can easily turn the tables on the impeccable drummer by simply feigning consternation. In perfect unison of course.

[b_goatman]

Non - drummer here (actually I own a kit but it's mostly used for jams/practice by others). Questions for you folks:

 

-I agree it's everyone's responsibility to keep the time together. If the bassist speeds up what do you guys do?

 

-If there are recurring tempo issues, do you point it out to the band and/or the offender? Does the situation improve after doing so?

 

-Anyone just say f*ck it (a band) over time and feel issues?

 

 

Thanks!

[cearleywine]

I'd almost feel relieved if the bass sped up(in my experience they're the first to drag). But seriously I try to stay as solid as possible and hopefully he'll realize he's rushing. The key is everyone always listening with the respect to the song and being able to compromise without playing against each other. If someone starts a song too slow I don't rush until we're there, I try to make the best of the tempo given.

 

Recurring issues must be addressed. Running the tune a few times with a metronome can often be an eye opener, if it's live I'll straight up tell someone and I certainly welcome feedback from my bandmates as well. Nobody's perfect, the occasional slip up can mess up your time, but knowing how to recover without the audience knowing is something that comes with repitition and experience.

[the DW]

....Nobody's perfect, the occasional slip up can mess up your time, but knowing how to recover without the audience knowing is something that comes with repitition and experience.

^ this.

Drummers "Prime Directive": Don't break the groove.

[danrothmusic]

Eye contact. I've found that if the bassist and I are getting off, if we make eye contact we can get it back together pretty easily, regardless of who's at fault.

 

If we're just sh*tting around, sometimes I'll just say screw it and whatever happens, happens (I have never had this mentality onstage, by the way--just when jamming for fun)

[kmart]

-Anyone just say f*ck it (a band) over time and feel issues?

 

Never. That lends itself to the situation feeling lame, and I don't play to feel lame.

[manoeuver]

I believe the expression: lol wutt? to be appropriate here. Srsly though, three half assed veterans with lousy time can easily turn the tables on the impeccable drummer by simply feigning consternation. In perfect unison of course.

Of course they can. we can most of us agree that three half assed veterans with lousy time will be a poor choice of bandmates for a drummer who prefers playing in time.

[1001gear]

Of course they can. we can most of us agree that three half assed veterans with lousy time will be a poor choice of bandmates for a drummer who prefers playing in time.

 

 

Yes poor choice if it's a choice. There's a sea of those guys on the way to market.

[irnbru83]

I got a rhythm guitarist who can't even stomp his foot to the beat (with or without his guitar uttering horrendous noises). Do I have him in my monitor? HELL NO. That's a distraction I just don't need. I told him at practice last week that he's not allowed to stomp his foot while lead guitarist is doing a solo intro to a song. It drove me crazy trying to get the feel for my opening with that moron pounding the stage arhythmically.

 

A few months ago, I started practicing our songs exclusively with a metronome and my memory (before I was using old recordings of the songs...), because the conversation of "We're not keeping solid time" came up. I'm now damn sure it's not me screwing the pooch. At our show last night, I put the brakes on twice on the intro to the SAME damn song. Bagpiper is notorious for speeding up his intro. So when I came in both times we played it, I counted it off on the hats slower than he was doing. Band followed suit, and nobody died.

 

 

EDIT: Point of that last story is that the drummer should feel free to rein in other members of the band. I'm not sure about this "You must be the atomic clock", but it definitely makes life easier if the drummer knows how to flow the song and the band can follow along.

 

In other news, my lead told me that I screwed up by a half-beat on 3 fills. I told him I believed only one was wrong, and quickly remedied. The other two were intended, but different from what we practice. Got caught in the heat of the moment, I guess. Need to keep it simple. Anyway, if I screw up on a fill, it's going to stay in TIME. Sure, there might be a couple of bizarre accents during the short recovery phase, but it's all in time as long as the bassist or lead don't get weird about it and SLOW DOWN. Common problem when a musician notices another member {censored}ing up. Probably caused by their desire to turn around and stare at the guilty party.

 

I'm not an amazing drummer, but just stay the course and everything will work out fine.

 

EDIT 2: Drunken rants are the best.

[1001gear]

I was gonna pass but I was logged in so lucky you, yackity yack.

Isn't Irish folk music for jigging and cavorting? Maybe the feel should be loose - not sloppy loose, just good time imprecision loose.?