Members niomosy Posted June 23, 2005 Members Share Posted June 23, 2005 Meh, I just don't bother with flags in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Geddy'sFavHeadache Posted June 23, 2005 Members Share Posted June 23, 2005 (shakes head in shame) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Paul Buerk Posted June 23, 2005 Members Share Posted June 23, 2005 "Ask the men and women who stood on top of the (World) Trade Center," said Rep. Randy (Duke) Cunningham, R-Calif. "Ask them and they will tell you: pass this amendment." Leave it to a Senator to rely on dead people as consultants. If they were somehow able to reach us from the beyond, they'd most likely implore the Senate to do something more important than worry about a flag burning amendment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members beam Posted June 23, 2005 Members Share Posted June 23, 2005 Originally posted by Paul Buerk Leave it to a Senator to rely on dead people as consultants.If they were somehow able to reach us from the beyond, they'd most likely implore the Senate to do something more important than worry about a flag burning amendment. I think it's pretty {censored}ing smug to use people who died like that to support your argument in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members vanlatte Posted June 23, 2005 Members Share Posted June 23, 2005 Originally posted by Paul Buerk Leave it to a Senator to rely on dead people as consultants. If they were somehow able to reach us from the beyond, they'd most likely implore the Senate to do something more important than worry about a flag burning amendment. No kidding, what a lame comment to make, it's pretty ghoulish to even make the connection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bassplayer7770 Posted June 23, 2005 Members Share Posted June 23, 2005 "Ask the men and women who stood on top of the (World) Trade Center," said Rep. Randy (Duke) Cunningham, R-Calif. "Ask them and they will tell you: pass this amendment." Funny, I would think they'd say something like "Bring those responsible for these attacks to justice..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members beam Posted June 23, 2005 Members Share Posted June 23, 2005 This reminds me of a quote from a West Wing episode where this was featured... It's like there is some mad rash of flag burning going on that I guess we just aren't hearing about. Seriously, how often has this happened where it needs to become a federal issue? Am I just not reading the right newspapers or what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bholder Posted June 23, 2005 Members Share Posted June 23, 2005 Originally posted by Craigv The flag symbolizes the country, which is The People, not specifically The Government, so stating that flag burners love their country is somewhat skewed logic in my opinion. Americans burning their own flag are dis'ing themselves as much as whatever they think they're protesting. You're free to think that, too, and that's the point of having something called Freedom. You can't legislate what the flag does or doesn't mean to an individual. I am against outlawing of ANY form of non-violent protest. If we outlaw protest, we are truly lost (regardless of who's in power). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators isaac42 Posted June 23, 2005 Moderators Share Posted June 23, 2005 Originally posted by vanlatte I guess it comes down to motivation. If you are looking for attention and making some sort of statement by burning your home made flag then it's probably safe to say you are trying to get a point across. In that case it doesnt matter where the flag came from, you are still disrespecting a symbol that many feel deserves respect. On the other hand, if you are in the backyard in the middle of the night with nobody else around doing your flag burning, then it's probably less of a statement and more of a ...well, I am not sure really. That seems like an odd thing to do Anyhoo, I don't think the argument is "its my property so I can do what I want with it" as much as what that property represents. Remember when Sinead Oconner ripped up a picture of the Pope on SNL? It may have been her picture, but what it represented is what outraged so many people, not the destruction of a $.90 piece of paper. And, in both cases, a statement was being made, which brings it under the protection of the free speech clause of the Bill of Rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators isaac42 Posted June 23, 2005 Moderators Share Posted June 23, 2005 Originally posted by jbryant8159 More at http://suvcw.org/flag.htm This one is routinely disregarded: (j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. You see it all the time on uniforms such as NFL and NBA referees, which is clearly a violation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators isaac42 Posted June 23, 2005 Moderators Share Posted June 23, 2005 Originally posted by zachoff If people in unfree countries can burn our flag, why can't we do it? Obviously, because we have more freedom than they do. Don't think about it, just believe it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members zachoff Posted June 23, 2005 Members Share Posted June 23, 2005 Originally posted by isaac42 Obviously, because we have more freedom than they do.Don't think about it, just believe it. Admittedly, that was said a bit tongue in cheek... Really though, I don't blindly believe anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members vanlatte Posted June 23, 2005 Members Share Posted June 23, 2005 My question remains unanswered. Based on the topic of this post, what happens if someone burns a flag? Death? Dismemberment? A fine? Jail time? Does anyone know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members zachoff Posted June 23, 2005 Members Share Posted June 23, 2005 Originally posted by vanlatte My question remains unanswered. Based on the topic of this post, what happens if someone burns a flag? Death? Dismemberment? A fine? Jail time? Does anyone know? For every flag you burn, God kills a kitten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators isaac42 Posted June 23, 2005 Moderators Share Posted June 23, 2005 Originally posted by vanlatte My question remains unanswered.Based on the topic of this post, what happens if someone burns a flag?Death? Dismemberment? A fine? Jail time? Does anyone know? At present, nothing. Supreme Court rulings have made it clear that this is a Constitutionally protected form of free speech. If this amendment passes and is ratified, then Congress will pass laws amiking it illegal, with what they consider appropriate penalties, probably including prison time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members the_big_geez Posted June 24, 2005 Members Share Posted June 24, 2005 "The effect of flag-burning derives solely from its power to shock and offend. It is not speech; it is not expression. It is the suppression and destruction of others' expression," Mr Franks said. "Our forebears fought to protect freedom to debate, to reason. They had in mind freedom to persuade by evidence of commitment and passion. "Flag-burning derives its impact only from its offensiveness. The burner is saying they feel so strongly that they are willing to risk punishment, and willing to trample people's emotions to be heard. "Even flag-burners should want the law upheld. To remove the legal penalties - or not to enforce them - deprives the burning of significance." --ACT New Zealand Justice Spokesman Stephen Franks, 21 May 2004 (emphasis added) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members beam Posted June 24, 2005 Members Share Posted June 24, 2005 I wonder... I'm not too sure about this, maybe some knows. Can I wear a shirt in public that says, "{censored} You." ?? If not, I wonder if they could use the same laws to prevent flag burning. This whole thing really boils down to people taking offense to an action, pure and simple. I know you don't have the right to not be offended, but there are public decency laws, and I wonder how this would fit in... It obviously bugs some people just as much as if they were walking around a mall with their 5 year old and saw someone wearing a "{censored} You" shirt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members vanlatte Posted June 24, 2005 Members Share Posted June 24, 2005 Originally posted by beam I wonder...I'm not too sure about this, maybe some knows.Can I wear a shirt in public that says, "{censored} You." ??If not, I wonder if they could use the same laws to prevent flag burning.This whole thing really boils down to people taking offense to an action, pure and simple. I know you don't have the right to not be offended, but there are public decency laws, and I wonder how this would fit in... It obviously bugs some people just as much as if they were walking around a mall with their 5 year old and saw someone wearing a "{censored} You" shirt. That's an excellent point. When my son was younger he spotted one of those stickers of Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes) taking a leak on a Ford emblem. He was old enough to know who Calvin is but the picture confused him. I didnt have a very good answer for him and it ticked me off that the question had to be asked in the first place. Not quite as extreme but you get the idea. The United States of the Offended. *sigh* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mudbass Posted June 24, 2005 Members Share Posted June 24, 2005 If the federal government wants to pass laws protecting the flag that's fine, but the Constitution isn't the place to do it. The US Constitution at its heart is a document that defines the limitations of government and the rights of the people, it's not a document intended to make laws. Thou shalt not infringe upon free speech, thou shalt not deny freedom of the press, thou shalt not limit freedom of religion... you know, that sort of thing. Using the Constitution as an instrument for the law has been tried before and failed, the 18th Amendment comes to mind. I'm all for making flag burning illegal, but leave the Constitution out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members beam Posted June 24, 2005 Members Share Posted June 24, 2005 Originally posted by Mudbass I'm all for making flag burning illegal, but leave the Constitution out of it. I disagree about making it illegal, but I agree with you that if such a law was passed, it should not deal with the Constitution. But relating back to my other post, if I can walk around wearing a shirt that says, "{censored} You." Then I don't see how flag burning can be made illegal. If I can wear a shirt that some find offensive, and it's protected by freedom of speech...how is being able to burn a flag any different? Though if I cannot wear a shirt like that in public, I don't think flag burning should be allowed...I'm all for laws being consistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members niomosy Posted June 24, 2005 Members Share Posted June 24, 2005 Much ado about nothing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sixgun77 Posted June 24, 2005 Members Share Posted June 24, 2005 I'll get on that wagon, I can agree with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members vanlatte Posted June 24, 2005 Members Share Posted June 24, 2005 Originally posted by beam I disagree about making it illegal, but I agree with you that if such a law was passed, it should not deal with the Constitution. But relating back to my other post, if I can walk around wearing a shirt that says, "{censored} You." Then I don't see how flag burning can be made illegal. If I can wear a shirt that some find offensive, and it's protected by freedom of speech...how is being able to burn a flag any different? Though if I cannot wear a shirt like that in public, I don't think flag burning should be allowed...I'm all for laws being consistent. Oops, I completely missed your point about this. I shouldnt post when I am so tired Oh well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mudbass Posted June 24, 2005 Members Share Posted June 24, 2005 Originally posted by beam I disagree about making it illegal, but I agree with you that if such a law was passed, it should not deal with the Constitution. We can argue about whether or not flag buring sould be illegal and that's fine, right and normal, but it's a minor issue compared to our elected officials {censored}ing around with the Constitution to suit their whims, which is what really pisses me off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members beam Posted June 24, 2005 Members Share Posted June 24, 2005 Originally posted by Mudbass We can argue about whether or not flag buring sould be illegal and that's fine, right and normal, but it's a minor issue compared to our elected officials {censored}ing around with the Constitution to suit their whims, which is what really pisses me off. +1The constitution should only have ammendments added for very important things that the entire country can get behind. Yes, I know..."very important" is pretty subjective, but what are ya gonna do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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