Members burdizzos Posted June 23, 2005 Members Share Posted June 23, 2005 ...to prohibit the physical desecration of the flag of the United States." Flag burning Amendment passes the House again. WASHINGTON (AP) - The House on Wednesday approved a constitutional amendment that would give Congress the power to ban desecration of the American flag, a measure rejected twice by the Senate in the past decade but expected to get a closer vote this year. By a 286-130 vote - eight more than needed - House members approved the amendment by the required two-thirds majority after a debate over whether such a ban would run afoul of the Constitution's free-speech protections. If approved by a similar two-thirds majority in the Senate, the amendment would then move to the states for ratification. It would have to be approved by three-fourths, or 38, of the 50 state legislatures to become the 28th amendment to the Constitution. Sixty-three senators, four short of two-thirds needed, voted for the amendment in 1995 and again in 2000. With Republicans increasing their majority in last fall's election, activists on both sides of the issue said the amendment has its pass chance ever of passing this year. But a rough count by The Associated Press shows 34 - one more than needed to defeat it - either as having voted against the amendment in the past or committed publicly to opposing it. Supporters said the measure reflected patriotism that deepened after the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, and they accused detractors of being out of touch with public sentiment. "Ask the men and women who stood on top of the (World) Trade Center," said Rep. Randy (Duke) Cunningham, R-Calif. "Ask them and they will tell you: pass this amendment." But Rep. Jerrold Nadler, D-N.Y., said, "If the flag needs protection at all, it needs protection from members of Congress who value the symbol more than the freedoms that the flag represents." The measure was designed to overturn a 1989 decision by the Supreme Court, which ruled 5-4 that flag burning was a protected free-speech right. That ruling threw out a 1968 federal statute and flag-protection laws in 48 states. The law was a response to anti-Vietnam war protesters setting fire to the American flag at their demonstrations. The proposed one-line amendment to the Constitution reads, "The Congress shall have power to prohibit the physical desecration of the flag of the United States." For the language to be added to the Constitution, it must be approved not only by two-thirds of each chamber but also by 38 states within seven years. Each time the proposed amendment has come to the House floor, it has reached the required two-thirds majority. But the measure has always died in the Senate, falling short of the 67 votes needed. But last year's elections gave Republicans a four-seat pickup in the Senate, and now proponents and critics alike say the amendment stands within a vote or two of reaching the two-thirds requirement in that chamber. By most counts, 65 current senators have voted for or said they intend to support the amendment, two shy of the crucial tally. More than a quarter of current senators were not members of that chamber during the last vote. The Senate is expected to consider the measure after the July 4th holiday. __________________________________________ Ridiculous. With everything else that is going on, these morons manage to make time for crap like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ggoroni Posted June 23, 2005 Members Share Posted June 23, 2005 yesterday a friend of mine who was just back from Norfolk told me that in the US there's a "flag day" - is that true? she told me people put flags on their front door but they're not allowed to leave them during they nite if the flag is not properly lighted... quite scary IMHO, sounds like the US are speeding on the rails of nationalism a bit too much... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TheDarxide Posted June 23, 2005 Members Share Posted June 23, 2005 I work with two Americans, they were celebrating flag day. No idea what it is, but they were.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rippin' Robin Posted June 23, 2005 Members Share Posted June 23, 2005 Originally posted by ggoroni yesterday a friend of mine who was just back from Norfolk told me that in the US there's a "flag day" - is that true? she told me people put flags on their front door but they're not allowed to leave them during they nite if the flag is not properly lighted... quite scary IMHO, sounds like the US are speeding on the rails of nationalism a bit too much... Not really weird. In Holland there are 'official' rules of the same sort. In fact, if flag touches the floor, you're supposed to burn it because it's been 'soiled'. There's a whole set of ludicrous rules about flagging over here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ggoroni Posted June 23, 2005 Members Share Posted June 23, 2005 Originally posted by Rippin' Robin Not really weird. In Holland there are 'official' rules of the same sort. In fact, if flag touches the floor, you're supposed to burn it because it's been 'soiled'. There's a whole set of ludicrous rules about flagging over here. maybe there are some similar rules overe here i've never heard about. i don't even have an italian flag (thank god), go figure how much i know bout flagging rules... anyway, all this nationalism scares me. looks like we're going back to the beginning of the 20th century. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rippin' Robin Posted June 23, 2005 Members Share Posted June 23, 2005 Originally posted by ggoroni maybe there are some similar rules overe here i've never heard about. i don't even have an italian flag (thank god), go figure how much i know bout flagging rules... anyway, all this nationalism scares me. looks like we're going back to the beginning of the 20th century. Not like we're going back.. these are old -nearly ancient- rules. Just read up a bit, the Dutch flag isn't supposed to be outside when it's dark and the flag's not lit by lamps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted June 23, 2005 CMS Author Share Posted June 23, 2005 It's not "rules" per-se; it's called flag protocol, guidelines for proper display. Most nations have some form of protocol for their flag. As far as your fear of nationalism, you might consider that the slide toward anarchy is to be more feared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted June 23, 2005 CMS Author Share Posted June 23, 2005 On- topic: I don't care if the amendment passes or doesn't. However I don't support the notion that an act of vandalism is protected by a Right to freedom of expression. If my form of 'expression' happened to be public masturbation, this logic should then allow me protection for this as well..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kaesh Posted June 23, 2005 Members Share Posted June 23, 2005 It doesn't have anything to do with nationalism. I hate when people throw that word around for no reason. About the issue itself though, I can't say I agree with it, but geez, I am surprised it even made the news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Oddsock Posted June 23, 2005 Members Share Posted June 23, 2005 I don't see how burning a flag that you purchased yourself is vandalism. BTW, in case it isn't known, there are no laws about displaying the flag as far as I know. The protocol for display and care is very well accepted, but there is no punishment or fines for not doing it. When I was a boy scout we used to offer to retire flags for people on flag day if they were flying an old tattered one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bholder Posted June 23, 2005 Members Share Posted June 23, 2005 I respect the US flag and wouldn't burn it in protest myself, but it seems to me we've forgotten what it stands for if we punish people who use it in protest (as long as it's their personal property). Seems to me the anti-flag-burning crowd has a bit of trouble understanding the concept of "freedom". As for the "love it or leave it" response, most of the people who protest against the government do love their country and are trying to improve it or stop what they see as government wrongdoings - all allowed by the constitution (and encouraged by the founding fathers). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ezstep Posted June 23, 2005 Members Share Posted June 23, 2005 I see this as a backlash from the Koran-flushing incident (if it actually happened). The American public was goaded by the media into feeling guilty about the book of Koran being flushed while completely ignoring the feelings of the American public about flag-burning. Why should one event be more (or less) traumatic than the other? As far as masturbating in public . . . I'd guess for some that it would be a felony and for others a misdemeanor. Honestly, I don't care if it passes or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted June 23, 2005 CMS Author Share Posted June 23, 2005 Originally posted by bholder I respect the US flag and wouldn't burn it in protest myself, but it seems to me we've forgotten what it stands for if we punish people who use it in protest (as long as it's their personal property). Seems to me the anti-flag-burning crowd has a bit of trouble understanding the concept of "freedom". As for the "love it or leave it" response, most of the people who protest against the government do love their country and are trying to improve it or stop what they see as government wrongdoings - all allowed by the constitution (and encouraged by the founding fathers). The flag symbolizes the country, which is The People, not specifically The Government, so stating that flag burners love their country is somewhat skewed logic in my opinion. Americans burning their own flag are dis'ing themselves as much as whatever they think they're protesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted June 23, 2005 CMS Author Share Posted June 23, 2005 Originally posted by ezstep I see this as a backlash from the Koran-flushing incident (if it actually happened). The American public was goaded by the media into feeling guilty about the book of Koran being flushed while completely ignoring the feelings of the American public about flag-burning. Why should one event be more (or less) traumatic than the other? As far as masturbating in public . . . I'd guess for some that it would be a felony and for others a misdemeanor. Honestly, I don't care if it passes or not. An Amendment isn't needed, nor would it have much affect toward its purpose. There's an obvious different in a national flag vs a religious tome, but agreed, the insult is effectively the same. It should also be noted that so far there's no evidence to support the claim that the Koran incident ever happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted June 23, 2005 CMS Author Share Posted June 23, 2005 Originally posted by Oddsock I don't see how burning a flag that you purchased yourself is vandalism. It's the closest term I can think at the moment to describe the act. If a person were to take a 3x5 piece of cotton into a public place and set it afire, there's a good chance they would be arrested for any number of minor disobendience, vandalism or disorderly conduct charges. If the 3x5 cloth happens to be a flag, I don't see how those charges wouldn't still apply. Taking it to the extreme, what if the person decided the best form of expression involved a much larger flag, or that the car they just painted in stars and stripes and set ablaze was also a flag? This notion of "expression" is the issue....where is the border of expression? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bassplayer7770 Posted June 23, 2005 Members Share Posted June 23, 2005 Originally posted by Craigv This notion of "expression" is the issue....where is the border of expression? To me, it comes down to property. Whose property is the flag?On whose property is the flag being burned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members the_big_geez Posted June 23, 2005 Members Share Posted June 23, 2005 People on both sides of the issue are equally 'American'. Some, regardless of which side they fall, are also sorely mistaken and possibly misrepresent this nation's true credo. That said, I always found the act of flag burning as a means of protest to be about as significant as telling your father to go {censored} himself, then sitting down at the dinner table, still expecting the meal to which you are 'entitled'. It breaks the old adage about not {censored}ting where you sleep; it is inflamatory behavior which should be expected to elicit a negative response from the several who are offended. It is possible that the motivation behind the issue is not one of nationalism, rather a means of ensuring domestic tranquility --a responsibility the government is already charged with. (I'm certain a survey would prove out that there are a far greater number of citizens who are offended by the intentional desecration of the flag than the number who are offended by it's proper display. The margin would be overwhelming.) It is also possible that the issue is only a device to draw attention to the politicos; a pandering to a constituent group. (it wouldn't be the FIRST time...)One must remember the long, arduous and time-consuming process by which Constitional Amendments are ratified and put into effect. I wouldn't expect much to come of this too quickly. It's NOT the hot-button issue some believe it to be. Certainly not the likes of the temperance movement anyway. Further, it is possible that the issue as presented is only a means of disguising some other nefarious plot against the People. That TOO would not be a first. Back in the late '80s there was a proposition for a 'balanced budget amendment, which actually included calling a Constitutional Convention for the purpose of (paraphrased) 'honoring the bicentennial of the US Constitution by re-writing it'. So, ALWAYS read the fine print. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted June 23, 2005 CMS Author Share Posted June 23, 2005 Originally posted by bassplayer7770 To me, it comes down to property.Whose property is the flag?On whose property is the flag being burned? Exactly...if you want to burn flags in the comfort of your home, that's your business unless it's an apartment and you set it on fire too..... But once you take the act out into the public spaces, whole other ballgame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bassplayer7770 Posted June 23, 2005 Members Share Posted June 23, 2005 Originally posted by the_big_geez Back in the late '80s there was a proposition for a 'balanced budget amendment, which actually included calling a Constitutional Convention for the purpose of (paraphrased) 'honoring the bicentennial of the US Constitution by re-writing it'. So, ALWAYS read the fine print. I still think the Bill of Rights should have stopped at "Congress shall make no law...":D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members the_big_geez Posted June 23, 2005 Members Share Posted June 23, 2005 Originally posted by bassplayer7770 I still think the Bill of Rights should have stopped at "Congress shall make no law...":D +11! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted June 23, 2005 CMS Author Share Posted June 23, 2005 Originally posted by bassplayer7770 I still think the Bill of Rights should have stopped at "Congress shall make no law...":D :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cthulhu0 Posted June 23, 2005 Members Share Posted June 23, 2005 having solved all other problems, and winning the wars on drugs, terrorism, poverty, and world peace, congress looks to what really matters: burning a flag in public. i still think that the ratty chinese made flags fluttering out of car windows are more disrespectful than burning them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted June 23, 2005 CMS Author Share Posted June 23, 2005 Originally posted by cthulhu0 I still think that the ratty chinese made flags fluttering out of car windows are more disrespectful than burning them. Indeed, there's a good reason the flags on F-14's and the Space Shuttle are painted on....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rippin' Robin Posted June 23, 2005 Members Share Posted June 23, 2005 Originally posted by Craigv Indeed, there's a good reason the flags on F-14's and the Space Shuttle are painted on....... All they had to do was paint on "Remove before flight" and no one would've given a damn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lug Posted June 23, 2005 Members Share Posted June 23, 2005 Originally posted by bholder I respect the US flag and wouldn't burn it in protest myself, but it seems to me we've forgotten what it stands for if we punish people who use it in protest (as long as it's their personal property). Seems to me the anti-flag-burning crowd has a bit of trouble understanding the concept of "freedom". As for the "love it or leave it" response, most of the people who protest against the government do love their country and are trying to improve it or stop what they see as government wrongdoings - all allowed by the constitution (and encouraged by the founding fathers). +1 The concept the flag represents is more imp ortant than the cloth it's made of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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