If I was ever liberal, I certainly am not now

[the_big_geez]

Originally posted by Jazz Ad Oh yes, I see it. What I don't understand on the other hand (despite your frequent explanations) is why you think that corruption and waste are lesser on a local level. It goes against all economical logics that bigger companies apply. Bigger structures mean more power. As for charity, you just can't count on people to give money and help others on a voluntary basis, otherwise most 3rd world country wouldn't be in their current state. It takes a strong government to develop a strong society. I can't think of a counterexample.

 

 

 

It all works on a relative scale, but in the case of my own community (which in 30 years has grown by 10% population, i.e. from 1000 in 1970 to 1100 in 2000), the town council and Mayor are actually neighbors. We know where they live; they walk the same streets.

 

This fact in and of itself brings upon those elected representatives a measure of accountability such as can NEVER be brought upon those who govern over a progressively larger area such as a County, State or the entire nation. Simply put, the more local a representative is, the more responsible he MUST be in order to retain his position.

 

In a small town, we can be heard; in the Senate, our voice ceases to exist.

[Mogwix]

Taxes suck sure, but being of native american status I don't have to pay as much as the average citizen. Minus the one tax we don't pay, we're still shelling out a lot of our pay.

Quite frankly, I wouldn't mind one bit paying full taxes. I have a status card that lets me take off the 7% PST from my purchases, but I hardly ever use it, unless I'm buying something worth like a few hundred dollars then hell, why not. I have no problem paying taxes.

There's downsides to the taxation sure, but tax isn't something that can be avoided. If you guys are so pissed about having to lend a few dollars (okay, more than a few dollars) to the government to pay for your schools, roads, policing, paramedics, firefighting, water, sewage, and on the goods you buy, then why don't you have another revolution? Running a country is expensive, and in order to pay for the war a lot of the people support, and in order to pay for the services you use every day whether you know it or not, you have to contribute your share.

Also, the poor aren't the ones benefitting from tax. Sure, the working middle class (most of you dudes here) are the ones taking the biggest hit, the rich people have all kinds of tax breaks and are laughing their way to the bank. The tax system is {censored}ed up sure but right now it's something you'll have to either deal with, or pick up your gun and rush the white house.

Go ahead and yell at me for anything I'm stupid about because I'm just a {censored}ing kid with a part-time job and not paying as much taxes as you.

[Jugghaid]

Originally posted by burdizzos Damn, and I thought I was an asshole. I apparently have much to learn.

When you can snatch the pebble from my hand.............

[burdizzos]

Originally posted by Jugghaid When you can snatch the pebble from my hand.............

{censored} the pebble, I want your basses and I don't want to work for them, so I'm going to introduce legislation to make them mine.

[bassplayer7770]

Originally posted by burdizzos {censored} the pebble, I want your basses and I don't want to work for them, so I'm going to introduce legislation to make them mine.

:D

[Smorgasboy]

Originally posted by burdizzos I'm a dumbass.

[burdizzos]

Originally posted by Smorgasboy

Wow, that was almost as clever as you last completly worthless post.


Way to contribute.


It would be fun if you could back up your point of view, but you cannot so rather than having your ass handed to you in a debate, you'll keep taking drive by shots.


{censored}ing pathetic.

[Jugghaid]

Originally posted by Jazz Ad It's a matter of point of view, a choice for a society. Regardless of the money you make, you still have considerably more left than the people who will take profit of it, so how exactly does it harm you ? You say "it's my money" like kids say "it's my toys". It's just a trading tool, not a value in itself. As I see it, you should be - Happy (not concerned) to be wealthier than most. - Proud (not bitter) of providing so much for your country and people. Obviously you see things differently. Move to the new capitalist paradise, Russia ?

And that is why I support charities and do things more on a local level. I don't need the federal government to force my hand, dictate where my money goes and waste most of it in beurocratic red tape.

Another big difference, I earn my money, kids are given toys.

My basic point is that it IS my money and I work hard for it. I would rather put it directly into the hands of people who need it than have it squandered by politicians and incompetent government workers.

[Jugghaid]

Originally posted by burdizzos {censored} the pebble, I want your basses and I don't want to work for them, so I'm going to introduce legislation to make them mine.

:D

[Crescent Seven]

Originally posted by burdizzos {censored} the pebble, I want your basses and I don't want to work for them, so I'm going to introduce legislation to make them mine.

{censored} legislation, let's just break into his house and steal them, and when we get caught we can blame it on society and our disadvantaged status, and then sue Jugghaid for shooting at us.
C7

[Smorgasboy]

Originally posted by burdizzos Wow, that was almost as clever as you last completly worthless post. Way to contribute. It would be fun if you could back up your point of view, but you cannot so rather than having your ass handed to you in a debate, you'll keep taking drive by shots. {censored}ing pathetic.

 

 

As far as I know, contributing a point of view to this thread didn't constitute an obligation to become a major participant in this (relatively stupid) discussion. But you are apparently quite upset, so if it will make you feel better, here's a response to your inane argument regarding Ethiopians.

 

An Ethiopian could use an extra $20 to STOP HIMSELF FROM STARVING.

 

I could use an extra $20 to add to my savings for a car down payment.

 

A guy who makes $30 million a year (and has been doing so for a decade) can use an extra $20 for...nothing. He likely wouldn't know it if 100 times that suddenly went missing. He's already got the financial resources to buy every possible material comfort that could possibly make a measurable improvement to his day-to-day life.

 

...so what possible motivation might this guy have to push for $40 million next year? Maybe he needs to buy more stock so he can...make more money to buy more stock? Somebody like that could potentially decline to take salary for an entire year, and use that money to give bonuses to his employees--people who could acually use the money for something. But instead they'll fight for a raise next year--possibly while cutting or freezing salaries for his employees Don't believe me? In 2004, the ratio of average CEO pay to the average pay of a production (i.e., non-management) worker was 431-to-1, up from 301-to-1 in 2003,

 

So feel free to have your opinion, but don't be such a condescending prick. I'm not a dumbass, I'm perfectly capable of backing up my points, and you can kindly direct your thread etiquette lectures at somebody who gives a {censored}.

[burdizzos]

So it's perfectly fine for you to live in relative luxury while people in the world are starving to death, but the CEO is the bad guy because his wealth is to your what your wealth is to someone who is starving.


Who cares what a billionare's motivation is for making hte next billion. What matters is that these are the people who are creating more wealth. There is not a finite amount of wealth on this planet, it continues to grow. Those who lead the companies who produce that increased wealth deserve a bigger cut than those who are along for the ride.

You can hate the rich all day, but they are the ones who make new technology affordable to the rest of us and generate the wealth that makes poverty a little more bearable.

Consider the living conditions of people living in poverty thirty years ago as compared the conditions of today's poor.

[ThudMaker]

So what you're saying is that once I reach a certain level of income, I should just stop trying to produce more. What you fail to comprehend is that US productivity is higher and US unemployment is much lower than Europe's for a reason. We expect our government not to tax us too much and we don't expect the government to provide everything for us or force our employers to do so. We also have a right to make as much money as we can and do with it as we darn well please.

[Jazz Ad]

And yet, the richest part of the population keeps complaining about taxes, disregarding the fact that the US of A favors them for the most part, more than any other developed countries.

[the_big_geez]

Originally posted by Jazz Ad And yet, the richest part of the population keeps complaining about taxes, disregarding the fact that the US of A favors them for the most part, more than any other developed countries.

 

 

That may be so, but it precludes the fundamentals of our nation's founding.

 

Cannibalism is widely accepted and considered perfectly normal among cannibals, yet most others are reviled by the very thought of it. Point-of-view is largely dependent on one's background and heritage.

 

Our heritage is that some 25 decades ago our forebears successfully prosecuted a war in protest of taxation. Therefore it should come as no suprise to find that many of us still see things in such a wise.

 

Sometimes wrong is just wrong, and taxation does and always will fall under this umbrella.

[psychepsilo]

Originally posted by burdizzos ...and generate the wealth that makes poverty a little more bearable. With all due respect, that simply makes no sense. Consider the living conditions of people living in poverty thirty years ago as compared the conditions of today's poor. Do you actually KNOW any poor people? I actually know entire poor TOWNS, and they're not as happy as you think they are. Just because the rich are richer than they were 30 years ago doesn't mean it's any more fun to be poor. I can't comprehend what thoughts or ideas helped you come up with that rationale.

 

[Smorgasboy]

Originally posted by burdizzos So it's perfectly fine for you to live in relative luxury while people in the world are starving to death, but the CEO is the bad guy because his wealth is to your what your wealth is to someone who is starving. Who cares what a billionare's motivation is for making hte next billion. What matters is that these are the people who are creating more wealth. There is not a finite amount of wealth on this planet, it continues to grow. Those who lead the companies who produce that increased wealth deserve a bigger cut than those who are along for the ride. You can hate the rich all day, but they are the ones who make new technology affordable to the rest of us and generate the wealth that makes poverty a little more bearable. Consider the living conditions of people living in poverty thirty years ago as compared the conditions of today's poor.

You are not hearing me. I have no problem with management making huge salaries--they deserve to to make hundreds of times what a janitor makes (and they do).

...but I'm not so sure if it's cool when the average CEO to employee compensation ratio is 525-to-1, as it was in 2001. Had the minimum wage risen as fast as CEO compensation from 1990-2005, the average production worker would be making $110,126 a year instead of $27,460.

CEO's deserve credit for leading their companies, but they often aren't paid relative to performace, and have hugely expensive golden parachutes, so even when they're fired for doing a terrible job they're draining resources from a company. Meanwhile, all that extra income is relatively useless to them. They'd be chauferred, and fine-dining, and vacationing at the private villa whether they made an extra $5 million next year or not.

It's great that the big fish make a ton of money, but they're steadily consolidating it at the top. Since 1982 CEO-to-employee wages have steadily risen from 42 to 431-1.

I'm not whining about it, and it's not something I spend my days worrying about--but at the same time, I work damn hard for a living, and I bring some skillsets to the table that an average CEO doesn't have and isn't likely to acquire. He needs people like me in order to "create more wealth", and instead of acknowledging that, they squeeze us guys in the middle while they make a mad scramble for the top of the gold pile. More power to them, but I just happen to think they're greedy bastages.

[burdizzos]

Originally posted by psychepsilo Do you actually KNOW any poor people? I actually know entire poor TOWNS, and they're not as happy as you think they are. Just because the rich are richer than they were 30 years ago doesn't mean it's any more fun to be poor. I can't comprehend what thoughts or ideas helped you come up with that rationale.

 

 

 

I grew up poor. I never had air conditioning until after I left home. I spent many winters as a child wearing thrift store coats inside because we didn't have any heating oil.

 

I never said that it's fun to be poor, I said that those who live below the poverty line have it better than their counterparts of thirty years ago. Those who are poor shouldn't be happy, they have good reason to be miserable, but what good does it really do to hand them more money? As far as it goes for being poor today, there is far more assistance available especially in the gov't subsidized housing market.

 

My poor background was my motivation for getting off of my ass and doing something about it. I left home at 18 and never looked back.

[J.]

Originally posted by Jugghaid But yo DO say that it's okay to take from those who have more and give it to those who have less...............same principle.

 

 

I know this wasn't directed at me (heck, this is my first post in this thread) but I believe in taking from the haves and giving to the have-nots to a certain extent. We already do a great deal of that in the United States, although not nearly as much as is done in many modern European countries.

 

I don't think the classic Robin Hood directive is the same as expecting a free ride. The idealistic part of me believes in taking from the rich and giving to the poor, but the pragmatic part of me knows that you can't depend on gov't for anything. I think social security is a good program with the right intentions, but I also don't expect it to be there when I'm old.

[Jazz Ad]

Originally posted by the_big_geez That may be so, but it precludes the fundamentals of our nation's founding. Cannibalism is widely accepted and considered perfectly normal among cannibals, yet most others are reviled by the very thought of it. Point-of-view is largely dependent on one's background and heritage. Our heritage is that some 25 decades ago our forebears successfully prosecuted a war in protest of taxation. Therefore it should come as no suprise to find that many of us still see things in such a wise. Sometimes wrong is just wrong, and taxation does and always will fall under this umbrella.

No society on Earth work without a form of taxation.

Put richness in common for the benefit of all. It's the sole of humanity.

You may have a better system in mind but it's yet to invent.

[Jugghaid]

Originally posted by Crescent Seven {censored} legislation, let's just break into his house and steal them, and when we get caught we can blame it on society and our disadvantaged status, and then sue Jugghaid for shooting at us. C7

You wouldn't be able to sue me.....I don't miss very often.

[lug]

Originally posted by bholder No, I'm saying that you're claiming there is nothing typical about you, which I find untrue. I think we're both roughly equally predictable in our responses to social and political discussions. You don't seem to think you are, though. What you find believable and not believable has never ceased to amaze me, you've displayed a disturbing ability to continue to believe in proven liars, so whether you believe anything I say or not isn't something I'm particularly concerned about. Edit: Oh, and I just wanted to add:

I think you might be making some assumptions. I'll give a few examples were you would probably guess my positions wrong. I'm anti-death penalty, I'm pro immigration amnesty with certain conditions, and I'm pro Gay Marriage. I also never fall for spin.

[78pbass]

Originally posted by burdizzos My poor background was my motivation for getting off of my ass and doing something about it. I left home at 18 and never looked back.

 

 

+10.

 

We lived in rental houses that were often forclosures in the months preceding legal action. aside: We actually could get electricity turned on with a phone call.

 

But the best skill was that we could pack the house and move everything our decrepit 1982 Subaru Wagon inside of 16 hours.

 

at 13, I mowed lawns and babysat so we could have the bread to keep the lights on. at 15 I used a moped that I dumpster dived for to raise the capital to buy a honda Spree to flip for profits, etc, etc.

 

For 2 years, I earned us enough by refurbing bikes, motorcycles, appliances, etc as an incremental income to my mom's BlockBuster job, to keep us housed and to keep the car running (again, mechanic skill payed off).

 

basically, I like Burd, am a firm believer that you manifest your own destiny. when I told my sister my income when she asked, she google-eyed that I could earn what I do without a degree. The degree gets you in the door, but its the drive, determination and your application of skills that get you the job and income.

 

I am driven by NEVER having to eat a state-supported meal again. THAT'S why I choose not to share with those who will not help themselves. I very-well could have been a system-drain, but chose to not be a part of it.