Bridge collapses in Minneapolis

[Deep Bass]

 

I'm no expert in this field, but from what I know and can deduce, bridges and other large structures don't just collapse for no apparent reason. We have some engineers and architects on this forum. Anyone have any possible explainations/reasons?

 

 

Well there's a lot of things that could cause a bridge to collapse. Probably the most famous bridge collapse is the Tacoma Narrows bridge in 1940, which collapsed was caused by a combination of wind and mechanical resonance:

http://www.ketchum.org/bridgecollapse.html

http://www.enm.bris.ac.uk/anm/tacoma/tacoma.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacoma_Narrows_Bridge

 

Other causes could be due to cracks, however they said they inspected the cracks recently. Cracks are common and expected to occur, and as long as they don't get too big they don't cause problems. Even airplanes have cracks in their structures.

 

Maybe something during the construction caused an existing crack to become too large? I'm just speculating.

[collinwho]

 

I just listened to a series of news conferences by the Governor and DOT reps, also some federal reps. They tell us that they had inspected the bridge each year and noted that all the cracks and fractures were OK; at least not bad enough to close the bridge. The bridge has a traffic volume of 141,000 per day. They went on to say they hired additional consultants to inspect the bridge in 2005 then had the structural engineering department of the UM to further inspect it in 2006. These consultants were above and beyond what the state DOT reps were alledgedly doing.

 

 

They may be saying, in the press conferences, that everything was showing up good in inspections, but the papers and all the various other news sources around here today are pretty much saying the exact opposite. The bridge was essentially 1 notch above the point where they declare that it needs to be closed or immediately repaired and should have been fixed a while ago. Again, this isn't my opinion, I have no opinion on the prior structural integrity of the 35W bridge, this is just what I was reading earlier.

 

As for it possibly being a terrorist attack . . . unless the terrorists now have telekinetic power, I highly doubt it. There wasn't an explosion, or anything else to indicate that anyone intended for the bridge to drop. It just dropped. There were construction crews working on resurfacing parts of the road on it, but any type of tampering on any of the support sections of the bridge seems as it it would have been very apparent very quickly (roads run underneath both ends of the bridge so it isn't as if people wouldn't have seen someone doing something under there.)

[bbl]

And what's all this back slapping at what a good job these idiots are doing on the federal and state level?? Makes me want to puke.

 

Bush on Rumsfeld: "He is doing a heckuva good job!"

 

Bush to Alberto Gonzales: "Yer Doin' A Great Job, Albie..."

 

Bush to Mike Brown: "Brownie, you're doing a heckuva job."

 

bbl to Hawkhuff: "Great post, Hawkie!"

[bbl]

 

I'm no expert in this field, but from what I know and can deduce, bridges and other large structures don't just collapse for no apparent reason. We have some engineers and architects on this forum. Anyone have any possible explainations/reasons?

 

 

Gravity.

[hi.flyer]

I hope the restoration of the national infrastructure becomes an issue confronted by the presidential candidates. I would love a bunch of new bridges, a spiffy new highway system. Maybe some dope public transportation.

[collinwho]

 

I hope the restoration of the national infrastructure becomes an issue confronted by the presidential candidates. I would love a bunch of new bridges, a spiffy new highway system. Maybe some dope public transportation.

 

 

I'm terrified that the government will use this as another opportunity to missappropriate funds and ignore pork-barrel spending. I want better infrastructure, but I don't want it as the result of scare tactics. The last thing we need is another Bridge to Nowhere or $1.5 million bus stop.

[hi.flyer]

 

I'm terrified that the government will use this as another opportunity to missappropriate funds and ignore pork-barrel spending. I want better infrastructure, but I don't want it as the result of scare tactics. The last thing we need is another Bridge to Nowhere or $1.5 million bus stop.

 

 

Yea, Congress has/is trying to pass legislation regarding this kind of thing, something about making it harder to snealk earmarks onto bills. I'm not sure of the specifics.

[hawkhuff]

Bush on Rumsfeld: "He is doing a heckuva good job!" Bush to Alberto Gonzales: "Yer Doin' A Great Job, Albie..." Bush to Mike Brown: "Brownie, you're doing a heckuva job." bbl to Hawkhuff: "Great post, Hawkie!"

C'mon..... you can back farther than that can't you?

 

Great job thar Janet Reno!

 

Great job thar Sandi Burglar! Yep.

 

Great job thar Monica!

 

Incomplete post bbl ! Yep.

 

My point is they're all doing it.

 

How will this fit into the prez debates? Will Hitlery save us? How 'bout Barak Hussein Osama? I hope so.

[J.]

It was an accident, plain and simple. No one expected the bridge to collapse, even though it was schedule for replacement in the next decade or so.

 

I've driven over that section of I-35W countless times; I'm just lucky that I'm not one of those who was on the bridge on that particular moment. The blame game has already started in the local politics arena of course.

[collinwho]

How will this fit into the prez debates? Will Hitlery save us? How 'bout Barak Hussein Osama? I hope so.

 

Clearly the source of something as insightful as this has worthwhile opinions.

[hawkhuff]

 

It was an accident, plain and simple. No one expected the bridge to collapse, even though it was schedule for replacement in the next decade or so. I've driven over that section of I-35W countless times; I'm just lucky that I'm not one of those who was on the bridge on that particular moment. The blame game has already started in the local politics arena of course.

Then why do so many inspection? Why hire so many consultants?

 

Case in point. The government no matter how much one wants to believe them CANNOT and WILL NOT keep you safe at home or on the highways.

 

An accident is something totally unexpected. How can so many gubmint officials and consultants miss this?

[hawkhuff]

Clearly the source of something as insightful as this has worthwhile opinions.

You're right and I do apologize.

 

A horrific event to be sure.

[hi.flyer]

 

Then why do so many inspection? Why hire so many consultants? Case in point. The government no matter how much one wants to believe them CANNOT and WILL NOT keep you safe at home or on the highways. An accident is something totally unexpected. How can so many gubmint officials and consultants miss this?

 

 

They don't have the budget to fix the tens of thousands of bridges that need to be prepared. The budget the wanted was threatened with a veto by Bush, so they slashed it own by a third.

 

They KNOW the bridges are {censored}ed up. This is a HUGE freakin' country though, and NTSB just doesn't have the resources it needs to repair the infrastructure.

[Crescent Seven]

I'm terrified that the government will use this as another opportunity to missappropriate funds and ignore pork-barrel spending. I want better infrastructure, but I don't want it as the result of scare tactics. The last thing we need is another Bridge to Nowhere or $1.5 million bus stop.

 

My sister lives in Ketchikan and I've been there. Even if you wanted to drive to the airport, there's no real reason to, all the parking is on the main island anyways. You can almost throw a rock and hit the other side at the ferry crossing. There's no need for a bridge, I can promise you that.

C7

[RSBro]

Just remember the Red Cross' new commish is ex IRS commish Mark Everson- best keep those few quarters to yourself at Christmas time (if you have any left)...

[hawkhuff]

 

They don't have the budget to fix the tens of thousands of bridges that need to be prepared. The budget the wanted was threatened with a veto by Bush, so they slashed it own by a third. They KNOW the bridges are {censored}ed up. This is a HUGE freakin' country though, and NTSB just doesn't have the resources it needs to repair the infrastructure.

 

It's supposed to be a state and federal expense, not NTSB.

 

Look at the pork in the federal budget then look at the money needed for infrastructure. Guess who get's the $$ ? It's a very big pantload that we don't have the money. We have the money but we lack the leadership on both sides to make the tough and the right decisions. All are skunks and all are spineless coward twit who want to have new projects happen in November and get their names on them. Oh, and to vote themselves their pay raises and retirement plans.

 

I just heard on the radio that MN has $100's of millions for 'projects' bequeathed by the feds like bear exhibits, a new football stadium, arts projects. But gee, we have no money for public safety. Gee.

[thelurker]

 

They don't have the budget to fix the tens of thousands of bridges that need to be prepared. The budget the wanted was threatened with a veto by Bush, so they slashed it own by a third.

 

 

Which budget?

[hi.flyer]

 

Which budget?

 

 

Oh I don't have all the detail on this, please don't bust my balls about it. I just heard them talking about it on NPR. The NTSB wanted like 300 billion and got 200 billion, something like that.

[collinwho]

 

It's supposed to be a state and federal expense, not NTSB. Look at the pork in the federal budget then look at the money needed for infrastructure. Guess who get's the $$ ? It's a very big pantload that we don't have the money. We have the money but we lack the leadership on both sides to make the tough and the right decisions. All are skunks and all are spineless coward twit who want to have new projects happen in November and get their names on them. Oh, and to vote themselves their pay raises and retirement plans. I just heard on the radio that MN has $100's of millions for 'projects' bequeathed by the feds like bear exhibits, a new football stadium, arts projects. But gee, we have no money for public safety. Gee.

 

 

I agree. I agree. I don't agree.

 

Your first two paragraphs are right on. Your third is very misinformed. MN isn't getting any federal money to build a football stadium. There are probably Minnesotans who are getting federal grants for art projects, and likely for nature reserves as well, but that is different from the state getting that money and it comes from a different source. There are 2 new stadiums being built (1 baseball, 1 football) but both are being funded by new taxes specifically designated for the stadium. So it isn't like money was diverted from roads to pay for these things.

 

There is a lot of pork in the budget, and that is a problem. The biggest problem, though, seems to be local officials who would rather make a splash than do what they are supposed to. MNDOT would rather focus all their efforts on loudly promoting unnecessary things like commuter railroads to outstate MN than quietly go about their actual job of maintaining the states roads. And really, there is nothing that is going to change that, because if they aren't out there loudly promoting some insignificant project, some other dept or bureau or office will be, and if they are tenacious enough, they will start chipping away at MNDOT's budget to fund their unimportant project. Uninformed voters and apathetic leaders have led to endless posturing between groups that are supposed to be working together getting in the way of actual progress.

[hawkhuff]

 

I agree. I agree. I don't agree. Your first two paragraphs are right on. Your third is very misinformed. MN isn't getting any federal money to build a football stadium. There are probably Minnesotans who are getting federal grants for art projects, and likely for nature reserves as well, but that is different from the state getting that money and it comes from a different source. There are 2 new stadiums being built (1 baseball, 1 football) but both are being funded by new taxes specifically designated for the stadium. So it isn't like money was diverted from roads to pay for these things. There is a lot of pork in the budget, and that is a problem. The biggest problem, though, seems to be local officials who would rather make a splash than do what they are supposed to. MNDOT would rather focus all their efforts on loudly promoting unnecessary things like commuter railroads to outstate MN than quietly go about their actual job of maintaining the states roads. And really, there is nothing that is going to change that, because if they aren't out there loudly promoting some insignificant project, some other dept or bureau or office will be, and if they are tenacious enough, they will start chipping away at MNDOT's budget to fund their unimportant project. Uninformed voters and apathetic leaders have led to endless posturing between groups that are supposed to be working together getting in the way of actual progress.

Please don't misunderstand me. I wasn't implying that money was diverted to stadia.

 

Quite the contrary the government idiots will spend money on all kinds of things new but only when they get their name on it. Maintenance be damned and it's not just MN. I just heard on the radio your state reps wanted to riase gas taxes but the governor vetoed the bill. Bravo. That was because last year there was a $2 billion surplus.

 

C'mon, tell me you understand this. I don't except to say that there is no leadership only a big money grab and those who are looking for ways to grab more. That's all. This bridge collapse is a case and point but some lower level bureaucrat will take the hit when the blood is actually on our legislator's hands and no where else. Let's lay the blame where it should and must go.

 

I am not saying somehting else here because yesterday I was saying the inspectors were telling us everything was OK; even after five separate inspections of that bridge. I believe they have to do what they do to stay in budget. I know how the game works, there is pressure there.

[collinwho]

 

Please don't misunderstand me. I wasn't implying that money was diverted to stadia. Quite the contrary the government idiots will spend money on all kinds of things new but only when they get their name on it. Maintenance be damned and it's not just MN. I just heard on the radio your state reps wanted to riase gas taxes but the governor vetoed the bill. Bravo. That was because last year there was a $2 billion surplus. C'mon, tell me you understand this. I don't except to say that there is no leadership only a big money grab and those who are looking for ways to grab more. That's all. This bridge collapse is a case and point but some lower level bureaucrat will take the hit when the blood is actually on our legislator's hands and no where else. Let's lay the blame where it should and must go. I am not saying somehting else here because yesterday I was saying the inspectors were telling us everything was OK; even after five separate inspections of that bridge. I believe they have to do what they do to stay in budget. I know how the game works, there is pressure there.

 

 

I get what you are saying. In your previous post you seemed to be implying that the reason they have "no money" was because they were using it on unnecessary projects. I was refuting that, when really, you didn't intend to say that at all.

 

Everything was not ok with the bridge. The worst part of all of this is that there are clearly some higher level officials who are not being completely honest. There was concern about the structural shortcomings of the bridge, but the work to counter those simply wasn't done.

 

 

This is what really concerns me.

 

Some close observers of MnDOT continued to speculate Thursday that the decision to monitor instead of fix deficiencies in the bridge was driven by financial concerns. Dave Semerad, CEO of the Minnesota chapter of the Associated General Contractors, said everything MnDOT does is based on cost-benefit analysis. "Let's face it. They don't have any money," Semerad said. "At the end of the day, that's the issue. This is indicative of a long-term pattern." Asked whether a lack of money was behind MnDOT's decision not to reinforce the bridge, MnDOT Metro District Engineer Khani Sahebjam said: "No, we would never do that because of money."

 

[lug]

Oh I don't have all the detail on this, please don't bust my balls about it. I just heard them talking about it on NPR. The NTSB wanted like 300 billion and got 200 billion, something like that.

 

Lately NPR = DNC

[hawkhuff]

 

I get what you are saying. In your previous post you seemed to be implying that the reason they have "no money" was because they were using it on unnecessary projects. I was refuting that, when really, you didn't intend to say that at all. Everything was not ok with the bridge. The worst part of all of this is that there are clearly some higher level officials who are not being completely honest. There was concern about the structural shortcomings of the bridge, but the work to counter those simply wasn't done. This is what really concerns me.

I am not impying they were using it on unnecessary projects I am saying that directly. It's about the state officials priorities and they are not on public safety. Most of their focus goes on getting re-elected and new projects to get their name in lights. It's about how many more freebies I can get for you so I can can get re-elected mentality. As I said before, public safety and infrastructure, which is their primary job, be damned. As always, it doesn't become an issue until people die and then still things may not change.

 

The legislature lies and people die. How come we don't see this bumper sticker?

 

Crime and gangs in cities; legislators lie and innocents die.

 

And they have the unmitigated gaul to stand up there, in front of the mikes, and tell you what a good job our inspectors and DOT are doing. Give me an F'ing break. It is the absolute height of arrogance. And no one seems to notice.

 

I'm not implying it's just your state, believe me, it's rampant.

 

Legislator's focus continues to be where can I get more revenue? Even if there is a budget surplus.

 

We continue to rot from within and most don't seem to notice or care.

[collinwho]

 

I am not impying they were using it on unnecessary projects I am saying that directly. It's about the state officials priorities and they are not on public safety. Most of their focus goes on getting re-elected and new projects to get their name in lights. It's about how many more freebies I can get for you so I can can get re-elected mentality. As I said before, public safety and infrastructure, which is their primary job, be damned. As always, it doesn't become an issue until people die and then still things may not change.

 

 

So then, I do disagree with this part. Because it is different money, and different officials/offices/departments that are handling these special projects. We aren't using the money on unnecessary projects, because that money is being collected specifically for those projects. This isn't money that is going to be around regardless. If there is no stadium, there is no extra .5% tax increase in the county to fund the stadium. Instead of that money going to the stadium, it would simply stay in the taxpayers pockets.

 

Special projects are an easy scapegoat, but they aren't the problem. The problem is when the offices in place to prevent these things simply don't do their job.

[hi.flyer]

Lately NPR = DNC

 

...lately?