Will Obama dump Biden?

[lug]

Why? Surely that's at least slightly undemocratic?

 

Maybe from their view, not ours.

[lonerstoenr]

Maybe from their view, not ours.

 

Fair enough, I'm sure there are supporters of each candidate in America, so what's wrong with other people's opinions exactly?

[lug]

 

Fair enough, I'm sure there are supporters of each candidate in America, so what's wrong with other people's opinions exactly?

 

 

Nothing wrong with it, just don't expect it to have any weight with the people who actually have to be governed by the choice. In other words, our interests as US citizens can be the same or completely different than those from other countries.

[lonerstoenr]

Well to be fair I was only discussing foreign perception here, I'll wasn't trying to persuade anyone's viewpoints. Just seemed odd that someone who people like the world round is always going to be a bad candidate....

[ThudMaker]

Most people didn't consider Clinton a moron. He came across as more articulate and intelligent. And bombing an aspirin factory or two was a lot less damaging and much more quickly forgotten than launching a full scale invasion of another country, you have to admit.

Clinton could articulate a point. If he was intelligent, he wouldn't have been smoking girl juice laced cigasr in the oval office. Bombing the aspirin factories didn't keep Americans safe, so the only thing "less damaging" that you could be talking about is world opinion of the US. I could care less. I'm more concerned with what a President is doing to keep my family safe than what someone in the middle of China thinks of the US.

[ThudMaker]

We'll just complain at you and tell you how best to run your country as always

You said it.

[rpsands]

I just thought I'd save you some time. Apparently I need to do more research on Biden... From what I have read so far, he is pretty much an old fox and very experienced when it comes to foreign policy matters? Judging from what I know at this point (which might well be insufficient), foreign officials should feel much more comfortable meeting with a guy like him than with Palin (or Obama, for that matter). Can you explain your concerns?

 

Google for "biden plagiarism" and then "biden gaffe"

 

Question answered.

[NeonVomit]

 

Clinton could articulate a point. If he was intelligent, he wouldn't have been smoking girl juice laced cigasr in the oval office. Bombing the aspirin factories didn't keep Americans safe, so the only thing "less damaging" that you could be talking about is world opinion of the US. I could care less. I'm more concerned with what a President is doing to keep my family safe than what someone in the middle of China thinks of the US.

 

 

Unless you don't count the Iraq war as 'damaging' and believe it helped keep Americans safe :poke:

 

*cue lug's line of 'liberating 30 million people' even though that wasn't part of the mission statement*

[ThudMaker]

Unless you don't count the Iraq war as 'damaging' and believe it helped keep Americans safe :poke:

Name an attack on US citizens on US soil since 9/11 and particularly after removal of Hussein. You can't. Thus, it's not a believe, it's a fact. Does that have anything to do with Iraq? Perhaps not. Perceptionis key. But it sure kept a lot of foreign fighters busy having a meet and greet in Iraq instead of plotting what was the next embassy to bomb. Will we get hit again at some point? It's highly likely.

[Taustin Powers]

 

Google for "biden plagiarism" and then "biden gaffe" Question answered.

 

 

If these are the answers to my question, I'm afraid I will not change my opinion that Biden would be a lot more qualified and suitable to deal with foreign officials than Palin.

 

Sorry mate, I'm open to learn new information that will convince me otherwise, but so far all I was given is

 

- considered a slimeball by C7

- talks a lot

- some poor wording in his statements

- may have plagiarized a speech fragment 20 years ago

- incorrectly cited (very possibly plagiarized) fragments of a paper in school, even longer ago

 

 

If these are the issues that I should be worried about when it comes to Biden dealing with foreign officials, then he must be a damn good man.

[rpsands]

 

Fair enough, I'm sure there are supporters of each candidate in America, so what's wrong with other people's opinions exactly?

 

 

The problem is that other countries are guided by self-interest, not American interests. They want a President who will molly coddle them and give into their bull{censored}, and in general let them push him around. Hence, Obama, the inexperienced ultraliberal who shares their socialist ideals (e.g. australia, most of europe).

[Taustin Powers]

Name an attack on US citizens on US soil since 9/11 and particularly after removal of Hussein. You can't. Thus, it's not a believe, it's a fact.

 

My friends and I took some nasty {censored}s in a variety of public places during my senior year in college. There hasn't been a terrorist attack since then. Our defecating in public places has helped keep America safe. It's a fact.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Taustin Powers]

The problem is that other countries are guided by self-interest, not American interests. They want a President who will molly coddle them and give into their bull{censored}, and in general let them push him around. Hence, Obama, the inexperienced ultraliberal who shares their socialist ideals (e.g. australia, most of europe).

 

Wow, you've got the whole rest of the world figured out, don't you...

[Kindness]

My friends and I took some nasty {censored}s in a variety of public places during my senior year in college. There hasn't been a terrorist attack since then. Our defecating in public places has helped keep America safe. It's a fact.

 

I grow so tired of horrible "logic."

[rpsands]

If these are the answers to my question, I'm afraid I will not change my opinion that Biden would be a lot more qualified and suitable to deal with foreign officials than Palin. Sorry mate, I'm open to learn new information that will convince me otherwise, but so far all I was given is - considered a slimeball by C7 - talks a lot - some poor wording in his statements - may have plagiarized a speech fragment 20 years ago - incorrectly cited (very possibly plagiarized) fragments of a paper in school, even longer ago If these are the issues that I should be worried about when it comes to Biden dealing with foreign officials, then he must be a damn good man.

 

You mean flat out lied about his background by plagiarizing another guy's speech in an attempt to appeal to the lower classes. At least once, if not repeatedly plagiarized his way through law school. Constantly lied about both of them and only admitted it when he was inescapably caught.

 

As far as "talks a lot and words statements poorly" more accurate would be to say "talks for the sake of talking, and constantly gaffes in often insulting ways."

 

Combine the tendency to lie with the tendency to misspeak (amazingly so; he misspeaks in insulting or outright bizarre ways, rather than grammar issues like our current president:P), and you've got yourself a recipe for disastrous foreign policy.

 

Also, while Biden has a lot of foreign policy knowledge (e.g. he knows what's happening) no one knows what he thinks except for a series of ridiculous statements he makes to get rises out of people (such as "Let's split up Iraq forcibly into 3 separate countries" -- presumably so that Iran could take them over more easily). He constantly talks without thinking over the ramifications, which normally I would applaud in a politician, but is not something I want in someone who's going to be doing serious foreign relations

[NeonVomit]

 

The problem is that other countries are guided by self-interest, not American interests. They want a President who will molly coddle them and give into their bull{censored}, and in general let them push him around. Hence, Obama, the inexperienced ultraliberal who shares their socialist ideals (e.g. australia, most of europe).

 

 

But the other problem is that America is guided by self interest, not other countries' interests. You all want leaders who will molly coddle the American president and give into their bull{censored}, and in general let him push them around.

 

:poke:

[rpsands]

Wow, you've got the whole rest of the world figured out, don't you...

 

I would say yes -- in regards to whether they care more about America or more about themselves, I am 100% positive that I am correct. Other countries care about the American president in so far as it benefits their interests (whether their interests include things that are Good or not, is irrelevant to the question).

[rpsands]

 

But the other problem is that America is guided by self interest, not other countries' interests. You all want leaders who will molly coddle the American president and give into their bull{censored}, and in general let him push them around. :poke:

 

 

I would say that America is the most altruistic country in the world (just my opinion here, but I think it could be pretty strongly argued that we do more per capita to help abroad than any world leader).

 

Does that mean we don't put our own interests first in the majority of cases? No. Does that mean we don't have self-interest in regards to your elections just like you do in regards to ours? Nope.

 

On the upshot, I'm not telling you who to elect but a whole lot of people are arguing that the mass of foreign countries who support Obama means a damn thing in terms of America's best interest. I'm arguing that it does not. I think that's an argument you're going to have a hard time refuting.

[NeonVomit]

 

I would say yes -- in regards to whether they care more about America or more about themselves, I am 100% positive that I am correct. Other countries care about the American president in so far as it benefits their interests (whether their interests include things that are Good or not, is irrelevant to the question).

 

 

But America cares more about itself than other countries surely, and would rather see and actively support pro-American leaders... eg Georgia, Colombia, et al.

 

How is this anything of a shock?

[NeonVomit]

I would say that America is the most altruistic country in the world (just my opinion here, but I think it could be pretty strongly argued that we do more per capita to help abroad than any world leader).

 

Wrong. Not even in the top 10.

 

On the upshot, I'm not telling you who to elect but a whole lot of people are arguing that the mass of foreign countries who support Obama means a damn thing in terms of America's best interest. I'm arguing that it does not. I think that's an argument you're going to have a hard time refuting.

 

I'm not surprised, you probably don't even know where Cyprus is on a world map

 

We take an interest because the US president has the power to affect us, but the fact that we elected a Communist president this year hasn't really changed anything for anyone other than farmers and the labour unions here

[lug]

Unless you don't count the Iraq war as 'damaging' and believe it helped keep Americans safe :poke: *cue lug's line of 'liberating 30 million people' even though that wasn't part of the mission statement*

really?

State Of The Union Speech - Jan 2003

 

"And tonight I have a message for the brave and oppressed people of Iraq: Your enemy is not surrounding your country -- your enemy is ruling your country. (Applause.) And the day he and his regime are removed from power will be the day of your liberation. (Applause.)" - President Bush

 

I'm just saddened that you forgot to mention that he is responsible for saving more African lives than any other man in the history of the world. I'm sure his African Aid is really just a smoke screen to let him tour there and eat african babies at will.

 

 

[Taustin Powers]

 

I would say yes -- in regards to whether they care more about America or more about themselves, I am 100% positive that I am correct. Other countries care about the American president in so far as it benefits their interests (whether their interests include things that are Good or not, is irrelevant to the question).

 

 

Has it occured to you that there are politicians/governments who are concerned about the rest of the world as a whole? Interested in international allies working together, to collectively make the world a better place, not just their own country? That maybe all countries cooperating and working on the same goals could accomplish a whole lot more for the world's safety?

 

All those "USA! USA!" chants at the Republican conventions still baffle me. And people like you saying "we should elect the guy the other countries like the least" only amplifies the image it's sending to the rest of the world.

[rpsands]

But America cares more about itself than other countries surely, and would rather see and actively support pro-American leaders... eg Georgia, Colombia, et al. How is this anything of a shock?

 

I fail to see what you're arguing here. Are you making a point that has anything to do with what I'm talking about?

 

My position is: The opinions of people in other countries, and the opinions (re: The Presidential election) of other countries, have jack {censored} all to do with what's best for America. In fact, they may in fact be contrary to America's best interests.

 

I'm not saying that they should be rejected out of hand so much as critically analyzed for motivation and substance (and also understanding), and should not influence an American's opinion simply by virtue of the number of folks.

 

Earlier in the thread it was argued that because so many foreign countries support Barack, it somehow means a damn thing -- unfortunately, the volume of people abroad supporting (with tenuous understanding at best of American domestic issues) Obama ought to have very little affect on us.

 

The value of foreign opinions on American policy have to derive 100% of their value from substance, rather than volume. If 500 million people in China say Barack is the best, who the fark cares?

 

(In America, it's somewhat different, since numbers do matter when voting

[NeonVomit]

really? State Of The Union Speech - Jan 2003 "And tonight I have a message for the brave and oppressed people of Iraq: Your enemy is not surrounding your country -- your enemy is ruling your country. (Applause.) And the day he and his regime are removed from power will be the day of your liberation. (Applause.)" - President Bush

 

Yes, but was that the reason given to Congress? I seem to remember something like 'Wmd! Nukes! Bioweapons! Wmd!' and a bunch of grainy photographs. Because if that wasn't the reason given to the people who actually decided to go to war and it was, as you say, to rescue the poor people of Iraq, then why not go and do the same for Burma and North Korea?

 

I'm just saddened that you forgot to mention that he is responsible for saving more African lives than any other man in the history of the world. I'm sure his African Aid is really just a smoke screen to let him tour there and eat african babies at will.

 

Talking about Iraq here

[rpsands]

 

Has it occured to you that there are politicians/governments who are concerned about the rest of the world as a whole? Interested in international allies working together, to collectively make the world a better place, not just their own country? That maybe all countries cooperating and working on the same goals could accomplish a whole lot more for the world's safety? All those "USA! USA!" chants at the Republican conventions still baffle me. And people like you saying "we should elect the guy the other countries like the least" only amplifies the image it's sending to the rest of the world.

 

 

Yes, it's occurred to me, but I doubt it's the case as much as you think. I also doubt that they know which president will help make the world a better place -- I know they know which president will make America more like socialist Europe, and my opinion is that's more their motivation than anything.

 

I never once said we should elect the guy the other countries like the least. I said that we shouldn't take a poll of foreign countries and let that guide our decision.