Who's your pick in the Kimbo fight? (spoiler)

[Dark Slide]

 

Great power, NO knowledge of grappling or submission. Yes, he'll slap you on your back for a pin. Of course, that's what his whole wrestling career was, put you flat on your back. But NOT how to put you in pain with an armbar or Kimura or Gogo Plata. His boxing/punching/frozen-ham-morningstar-swinging is powerful and deals damage on the ground. But I don't see ANY fight-finishing skills. He'll win his victories by decision, not by submission or knockout. Yes, Frank Mir absorbed some truly massive damage in his fight, but he is a real MMA combatant, not a wrestler with a big name. Brock had no idea how to defend a leg lock of any kind. Until Brock shows me any kind of successful submission hold, I won't bet on him.

 

 

When was the last time you saw Chuck Liddell sub someone? And how long was he champ? With how many knockouts? Brock is extremely new to the sport, but his natural athleticism is going to give him a huge advantage. As soon as his striking improves, he is going to be a monster. His take-downs are obviously impressive, but I see him becoming successful as soon as he figures out that he doesn't need to take people down to win, he simply needs to keep them from taking him down. Of course, right now his best bet is to ground and pound, but it's a bad situation for him to be in with guys who know how to sub him. Those same guys, however, have virtually zero chance of taking him down to submit him in the first place IMO.

 

Brock shouldn't be worried about subbing anyone. He should be worried about taking his fist and putting it through the head of the guy across the ring from him, IMO.

[willsellout]

 

We can disagree about a timeline for days on end. You think one thing and I think another. I don't see his 15 years of fighting as a good thing, I think of it of 15 years I have to undo while trying to train him for MMA.

 

What exactly do you have to undo? He has rudimentary boxing skills and a good physique. You don't have to undo much, rather you have to hone his skills standing and begin his skills on the ground. Here is the difference in our train of though. You see his experience as a detriment, I don't.

 

 

You found it interesting that a fighter with 3 MMA matches, got caught by a punch from a guy with 8 years of professional fighting experience, 13 matches, 9 wins, 4 losses - including a win over (an admittedly past his prime) Dan Severn - and knocked out? I'm sorry, but I think you sound like you simply dislike Kimbo.

 

 

Quite the opposite, I think Kimbo has potential, given the right training, which he obviously hasn't gotten.

 

 

Maybe it's due to the push he got, maybe it's due to the press he's been getting, maybe it's due to him being a thug turned MMA fighter and maybe it's to due with the fact that an MMA fighter with less than 2 years experience is doing more in MMA than you are, or likely will.

 

I don't want to do anything with MMA in any setting other than training and sparring my friends. I don't enjoy fighting enough to do it amateur or professionally, not my thing. I'm not jealous I'm not a hater, I just happen to think they made the wrong choice.

 

 

Regardless, if it were any other fighter out there, in the same situation as Kimbo, the shock would not be there IMO. Not in the least.

 

 

Where did I say I was shocked at the loss? From the very beginning I said he'd probably lose...in fact I was the first person in this thread to say that.

 

 

I am not a Kimbo fan and I was glad he got knocked out, but I am also able to take the situation for what it is. I have to assume that someone like Randy Couture knows whether or not Bas is worth having as a partner at his training facility.

 

What does a business decision have to do with him training Kimbo?!?

 

 

I have to assume the IFL knew what they were doing when they took on Bas as a trainer for the Anacondas, especially considering how well they did. I am also going to have to assume that if Eddie Bravo (Who I am admittedly not a fan of), Karo Parysian, Randy and Bas are all working with Kimbo and he is not improving as fast as you would like him to, either 1) Your expectations are out of line with reality, or 2) It's an issue with the fighter and not the trainers.

 

 

A good trainer trains..if he can't train he needs to look for another line of work. Not everyone responds to the same training and it was his job to find a way to improve him. Like you said, we could argue timelines but we aren't going to agree.

 

My point is that there was zero improvement in Kimbo from day one, not in striking, not in grappling, and not in stamina. What kind of trainer makes no progress in a year and a half?

[Optimus Prime]

I don't know anything about this cage fighting stuff or who these people are. But I guess the guy who won is from my city.

[King Kashue]

 

But I don't see it getting bigger than boxing in the money or the viewership. There are way too many hardcore boxing fans.

 

 

Its big PPV events are already bigger than Boxing.

 

It's only been ten years or so since the UFC started the move towards legitimacy. If they've come this far in less than ten years, where will they be in another ten?

[Dark Slide]

 

*Stuff*

 

 

We're just going in circles here. I consider "experience" a detriment the same way many people consider learning to play bass incorrectly is a detriment to learning to play correctly.

 

You see Kimbo's lack of improvement as a reflection on his trainers despite the fact that they are some of the best in the world and have produced plenty of excellent MMA fighters. I see it as a problem with the fighter.

 

You can call it "shock" or you can simply call it a negative reaction, but either way, if it was any normal fighter going into his 4th MMA fight, the reaction wouldn't be the same.

[willsellout]

 

We're just going in circles here. I consider "experience" a detriment the same way many people consider learning to play bass incorrectly is a detriment to learning to play correctly.

 

 

That's fine, if his technique was bad in the first place. Being mostly an MT guy and watching Kimbo fight, I can say that his technique required nothing more than some honing to be a good striker. The basics were there. Really he needed to work combo's, work on his speed and accuracy, and learn to keep his arms up and chin tucked. Not difficult to train into muscle memory.

 

I mean, I don't think he'd ever be a great kickboxer, he's just too slow but his punching wasn't half bad. Just some tweaks, combination work, head movement etc., and you'd have a guy that was formidable in the ring. Instead you have Kimbo throwing off target haymakers and getting lucky.

 

I mean I've seen videos of Rutten "training" Slice where he's doing nothing but having him punch. No attention to technique at all...and if you are going in as a puncher, you need to have the details of technique beaten into you. Otherwise you get KTFO like Kimbo did.

 

When I was training and I was doing punch/kick drills, I'd get smacked in the face of I left my arms down or forgot to tuck my chin. The smacks would progressively turn to punches if I kept slipping. You learn quick to keep yourself protected but I didn't see any of that in Kimbo's training.

Maybe it was Kimbo's ability to learn or maybe it was Bas' teaching that wasn't getting through. I honestly don't know, but I do know that Kimbo made no progress with Bas, which leads me to believe that trainer was not effective, like it or not.

 

 

You see Kimbo's lack of improvement as a reflection on his trainers despite the fact that they are some of the best in the world and have produced plenty of excellent MMA fighters. I see it as a problem with the fighter.

 

 

WTF is a trainer there for? Seriously, trainers are there to train, to work with a fighter and find ways to improve him or her. It's the trainers job to get the fighter ready and if Bas couldn't find a way to do it (which he obviously couldn't in this case), you hand him off to someone who can. And if I was CBS and I saw his second fight and what little evidence of improvement there was, I would have fired him and found someone more capable.

 

 

You can call it "shock" or you can simply call it a negative reaction, but either way, if it was any normal fighter going into his 4th MMA fight, the reaction wouldn't be the same.

 

 

I had neither shock nor negative reaction to his loss; It was expected. Now if you are talking about everyone else in the world who was shocked at his loss to an actual MMA fighter, then yes, no question there would be a difference in reaction.

[JeffBass]

OH OH!! Word on the street is Ken and Bas bet against Kimbo and pulled the double switch (with Seth) at the very end so Kimbo would lose!! : O

[Crescent Seven]

 

OH OH!! Word on the street is Ken and Bas bet against Kimbo and pulled the double switch (with Seth) at the very end so Kimbo would lose!! : O

 

 

Word on which street?

C7

[JeffBass]

Judo street..... That's all I can say.

[Crescent Seven]

 

Judo street..... That's all I can say.

 

 

So you made it up?

[Psilocybin]

I think ninjas are totally rad.

[RSBro]

Cont'd from yesterday-

 

I actually got to see the Slice "fight"- however, I had to watch the damn replay 4 or 5 times to see where Seth actually connected! I couldn't believe it! I watched Liddel go cold vs. Evans and Jackson, and those were solid, straight to the jaw stone-cold connections.

Slice got what it seemed tapped on the eyebrow, and went down disoriented. Seth was falling back towards the cage and just happened to lash out and barely connect. I though Slice fell down, TBH. Crazy!

 

On to Lesnar-

I watched a lot of his training and interviews and saw his latest fight Herring, and damn- talk about domination! I agree with D.S. here that all he has to do is take the cat down, put his 6'3, 270lb+ frame on the guy and go to town. His opponent was 6'4, 250. That's a big dude! He connected with a huge right hander at first that sent the guy reeling back. It was downhill from there.

Liddel was the champ for 2+ years with having even less on the mat experience.

The Lesnar v. Couture fight is scheduled for Nov. 15. D.S. - why did you think "this is a bad idea?"

Also, has he only had 2 UFC fights? His record on the UFC site is 2-1, but I can only find that he fought Frank Mir and Herring, and know he lost to Mir in a leg lock, but that he pretty much was "winning" the fight. I couldn't find the video for it to see for myself. But against Herring, whew. He messed that guy up. He is going to skyrocket if he has a good match and beats Couture for the HW title.

[Super_Donut_Man]

Can we at least say it was less gay than John Madden's usual commentary? Like his "it's a mudhole down there, and they're just sloppin' around body to body" visual?

 

Maybe

 

On the UFC fight they were re-running at the same time as the Elite XC, they had some prety homo-erotic comentary...

 

"He can't pull it out now, they are not sweaty enough"

[JeffBass]

So you made it up?

 

No, I know people on the inside. I probably said too much already.

[Dark Slide]

 

On to Lesnar- I watched a lot of his training and interviews and saw his latest fight Herring, and damn- talk about domination! I agree with D.S. here that all he has to do is take the cat down, put his 6'3, 270lb+ frame on the guy and go to town. His opponent was 6'4, 250. That's a big dude! He connected with a huge right hander at first that sent the guy reeling back. It was downhill from there. Liddel was the champ for 2+ years with having even less on the mat experience. The Lesnar v. Couture fight is scheduled for Nov. 15. D.S. - why did you think "this is a bad idea?" Also, has he only had 2 UFC fights? His record on the UFC site is 2-1, but I can only find that he fought Frank Mir and Herring, and know he lost to Mir in a leg lock, but that he pretty much was "winning" the fight. I couldn't find the video for it to see for myself. But against Herring, whew. He messed that guy up. He is going to skyrocket if he has a good match and beats Couture for the HW title.

 

 

Brock's first fight was against Min Soo Kim, which he won by laying on him and pummeling him.

 

I think the Lesnar/Couture fight is bad for a number of reasons. First, Brock is really inexperienced one dimensional right now, while Randy is amazingly experienced and well rounded.

 

Brock's options are to try and stand with Randy, where he will be WAY out of his element and likely to get KO'd despite his size advantage. Randy's hands looked fantastic against Sylvia, and while Brock is more muscular than Timmy (who I dislike, despite him being from Maine) his striking isn't any better and his reach is only 1" longer (surprisingly). He could also attempt to take Randy down, which I think he is capable of doing, but I think once there, Randy's experience would pay off. He'd keep Brock from landing any significant strikes before subbing him, or getting back to his feet. Every time Brock attempts to take Randy down, he's opening himself up to get KO'd. Unfortunately, no one knows what his chin is like, but even if we assume he has a rock solid chin (which, by looking at the size of his neck, I WILL do) I still see Randy dishing out a lot of damage.

 

I'm certainly not going to say that Brock can't win. I think he is going to have a pretty significant advantage in the power department, and it wont take many to put Randy out... but I also think that smaller guys with better technique hit much harder than Brock can right now.

 

Regardless, at this point and time, Brock seems to be enjoying his MMA career. If he takes a severe beating that demoralizes him, he may just pack his bags and call it quits. It's not like he needs the $$. Dana would be better off moving him through the ranks slowly, raking in the $$ due to Brocks popularity and better preparing Brock for a fight with Randy. I suppose Randy's age and Brocks willingness to continue fighting needs to be taking into consideration. Maybe Dana has paid off Randy, given him a way out of his contract if he looses to Brock in an effort to capitalize on the drawing power of the fight before Randy becomes too old or Brock loses motivation. I guess we'll just have to see.

[RSBro]

Ok, yeah I'd seen links to I guess what was his "first" MMA fight, but I wasn't sure if it was with UFC or not. I'm not big on the subject as a whole, so I'm assuming all of your "MMA" fights count for your record, regardless of what promotion you're with, right?

 

I agree with a lot of what you said. I haven't watched Randy fight in a while, so I'll be going back through his most recent stuff to see where he's left off. The Herring fight really impressed me with Lesnar, although Herring =/= Couture, for sure.

He is 44 though, so how much stamina and raw strength Brock brings to the match is going to determine a lot I'd think. He didn't look too gassed at the end of 3 rounds vs. Herring. But title bouts are 5 rounds, right? Unless by KO/TKO?

He seems pretty motivated to me, but after only 3 fights a HW title shot does seem soon, what with the Slice fiasco just on Saturday. I'll be interested to see how much they pump the Nov. 15th fight, which I'm sure will be a LOT, as Brock v. Randy is the headliner. But I donno how many legit HW contenders they have anyways, so why not, ya know? He's young enough to where even if he lost by decision to Randy, he would stick with it. If by submission or KO, that's something else.

I for one am rooting for him. He'd be a huge draw to the sport to say the least.

[willsellout]

The problem with the HW division is that there is {censored}all for talent there. Besides Randy, there isn't much. A lot more attention is being paid to the light heavyweight and below, which are more often than not, much much better fights.

 

Couture and Lesnar will draw a crowd and I think this fight is a combination of

1. Lack of good oponents

2. who people want to see fight, regardless of who "earned" it.

[JeffBass]

Rodrigo Nogueira should have been fighting Randy because he won the interim title by submitting Tim Sylvia. I would have made Brock win at least one more fight (against a quality fighter) before getting a shot at the winner of Randy/Nog. Beating Heath Herring once shouldn't get you a title shot, especially after you just got submitted by Frank Mir. Dana White has a habit of pushing aside more deserving fighters for fighters he deems popular. Lyoto Machida is a perfect example of this.

Seriously Randy should have been stripped of his belt and forced to win it back but that's another matter.

[RSBro]

Yeah, what's the deal with all these "interim title" things? I read last night on the UFC website the history of the title for each weight division (since they started keeping up, which was 1997 or so, IIRC, a good 4 years after UFC started), and each class seems to have had this happen at least once.

[Dark Slide]

Rodrigo Nogueira should have been fighting Randy because he won the interim title by submitting Tim Sylvia. I would have made Brock win at least one more fight (against a quality fighter) before getting a shot at the winner of Randy/Nog. Beating Heath Herring once shouldn't get you a title shot, especially after you just got submitted by Frank Mir. Dana White has a habit of pushing aside more deserving fighters for fighters he deems popular. Lyoto Machida is a perfect example of this. Seriously Randy should have been stripped of his belt and forced to win it back but that's another matter.

 

Nog will get raped by Randy. He never even should have won his fight with Timmy. Had it been anyone but Nog, the ref would have called the fight over. I give Nog just about zero chance vs. Randy based on his last performance. It was downright piss poor IMO.

 

As far as the title goes, I BELIEVE Nog continues holding it. The winner of him and Mir will fight the winner of Brock and Randy for the title. Though I could be wrong.

[willsellout]

Rodrigo Nogueira should have been fighting Randy because he won the interim title by submitting Tim Sylvia. I would have made Brock win at least one more fight (against a quality fighter) before getting a shot at the winner of Randy/Nog. Beating Heath Herring once shouldn't get you a title shot, especially after you just got submitted by Frank Mir. Dana White has a habit of pushing aside more deserving fighters for fighters he deems popular. Lyoto Machida is a perfect example of this. Seriously Randy should have been stripped of his belt and forced to win it back but that's another matter.

 

What's your beef with Machida? Last I saw, he fought Franklin and won and Tito and Won. that's pretty impressive.

[JeffBass]

 

Nog will get raped by Randy. He never even should have won his fight with Timmy. Had it been anyone but Nog, the ref would have called the fight over. I give Nog just about zero chance vs. Randy based on his last performance. It was downright piss poor IMO. As far as the title goes, I BELIEVE Nog continues holding it. The winner of him and Mir will fight the winner of Brock and Randy for the title. Though I could be wrong.

 

 

"Had it been anyone but Nog, the ref would have called the fight over".

-----------

That's a ridiculous statement. It's not like Nog is some fan favorite and the fact remains he finished Tim Sylvia for the title while Randy couldn't, even though Sylvia was suffering from a serious back injury going into the fight (which impeded his training).

Honestly I don't care what your opinions are on the matter, Big Nog won the title fair and square and should be fighting Randy. If they fight for the title I'll take Nog over Randy for 50. By the way, Randy was handed his title back so he's the Champion now.

[Dark Slide]

 

"Had it been anyone but Nog, the ref would have called the fight over". ----------- That's a ridiculous statement. It's not like Nog is some fan favorite and the fact remains he finished Tim Sylvia for the title while Randy couldn't, even though Sylvia was suffering from a serious back injury going into the fight (which impeded his training). Honestly I don't care what your opinions are on the matter, Big Nog won the title fair and square and should be fighting Randy. If they fight for the title I'll take Nog over Randy for 50. By the way, Randy was handed his title back so he's the Champion now.

 

 

It was my mistake, I DID think Nog's performance against Timmy was piss poor, but I was actually thinking of the Herring fight when I said they handed it to him. He was brought in by Dana as a big name, especially in a HW division that was lacking solid competitors, he got raped by Herring, knocked out cold IMO, and was allowed to recover and then handed the victory.

 

I'd take that 50 on a Randy/Nog fight any day.

 

As far as Randy regaining the title goes, I must have missed it. When the fight was originally announced it was said that Nog would retain it. Regardless, it's called the iterim title for a reason. If something like this couldn't happen, they would just call it the title.

[RSBro]

The card for the Brock/Randy fight says "for the HW title"...

I'm still lost on this "interim title" stuff, and then how people get it back?

[J.]

Dana White does have a habit of pushing aside "better" fighters for more popular ones, but he's a businessman. The UFC was doing quite badly when Dana White took over at the helm, and now they're extremely profitable. In fact, when the UFC was at the Target Center in Minneapolis in August, there was an article in the local paper talking about how the UFC was probably the most profitable event for an arena to run, above and beyond concerts and other sports.

 

It's a business decision, nothing more and nothing less. Brock Lesnar can draw, big time. That's why he's in the main event with Couture. Heck, if I ran the UFC and could draw the biggest crowd by putting a 0-20 guy in the main event, I'd do it.