Excellent journalism: BBC reporters inside Russia and South Ossetia.

[philthygeezer]

Lately the BBC has had two different specials featuring a journalist going into Moscow/surrounding countryside and getting the scoop on popular opinion there about the west. Also, another went to South Ossetia.

 

These changed my perspective by a wide margin. Despite overt signs of backsliding, they really have changed into into a successful form of capitalism, and for the first time in many years have their dignity and some spare coin to buy toys. They think that the west completely misunderstands them. They want to be left alone. The missile shield was a broken promise, since George Bush Senior promised not to encroach on their borders when the old system fell. A good question was raised: the west doesn't bother China. Why do they get all hot and bothered about Russia, who has had only 20 years to embrace Democracy and capitalism? This makes a lot of sense! Russia has moved into the modern era in it's own style. The quips about Putin and KGB were so patently wrong that most youths in Russia are pissed that we misunderstand them so completely. Putin is to Russia what Obama is to the US. He is a national hero who brought order and dignity.

 

The other show was about the rape of South Ossetia. The British journalist has uncovered evidence of war crimes by Georgia, and even Georgian soldiers admit they burned down people's homes. There is much evidence to suggest that they fired indiscriminately into civilian homes and apartment blocks. The Russian response was slow and too late for many, but the South Ossetians welcomed them. This in no way condones the invasion of a sovereign nation by another, but it appears that there is way more to the picture than just simple empire-building.

 

Truth is nearly always stranger than fiction, and I must say that tripping out to a few places in the FSU has convinced me that there is much misplaced fear about Russia from the West. George Junior's meeting with Putin was likely a smart one!

 

Notwithstanding religulously-inspired terrorism, it's time to take on more peaceful world view and start talking instead of threatening and putting up missiles. Countries that get along, go along. The cold war and communism are long over according to Russians, and it's unfair to expect their system to look exactly like ours.

 

I'll look for links to these specials, and if anyone has them please post. They were uniquely insightful - piercing through the sea of regurgitated rhetoric that passes for news these days.

[lug]

 

Lately the BBC has had two different specials featuring a journalist going into Moscow and getting the scoop on popular opinion there about the west. Also, another went to South Ossetia. These changed my perspective by a wide margin. Despite overt signs of backsliding, they really have changed into into a successful form of capitalism, and for the first time in many years have their dignity and some spare coin to buy toys. They think that the west completely misunderstands them. They want to be left alone. The missile shield was a broken promise, since George Bush Senior promised not to encroach on their borders when the old system fell. A good question was raised: the west doesn;t bother China. Why do they get all hot and bothered about Russia, who has had only 20 years to embrace Democracy and capitalism? This makes a lot of sense! Russia has moved into the modern era in it's own style. The quips about Putin and KGB were so patently wrong that most youths in Russia are pissed that we misunderstand them so completely. Putin is to Russia what Obama is to the US. He is a national hero who brought order and dignity. The other show was about the rape of South Ossetia. The British journalist has uncovered evidence of war crimes by Georgia, and even Georgian soldiers admit they burned down people's homes. There is much evidence to suggest that they fired indiscriminately into civilian homes and apartment blocks. The Russian response was slow and too late for many, but the South Ossetians welcomed them. This in no way condones the invasion of a sovereign nation by another, but it appears that there is way more to the picture than just simple empire-building. Truth is nearly always stranger than fiction, and I must say that tripping out to a few places in the FSU has convinced me that there is much misplaced fear about Russia from the West. George Junior's meeting with Putin was likely a smart one! Notwhithstanding religulously-inspired terrorism, it's time to take on more peaceful world view and start talking instead of threatening and putting up missiles. Countries that get along, go along. The cold war and communism are long over according to Russians, and it's unfair to expect their system to look exactly like ours.

 

 

The missles aren't for Russia, they are for Iran. Russia just happens to be close.

[AntiStuff]

That was one of my biggest problems with McCain, was that he wanted to kick Russia out of the G8. That would have been a huge mistake.

I've heard the same thing about Ossetia. The American press really didn't take an un-biased view on the war. They made is sound like Russia was commiting war crimes when it was probably stopping them.

[philthygeezer]

 

The missles aren't for Russia, they are for Iran. Russia just happens to be close.

 

 

The journalist brought this up with a Russian literary dude who was a vocal critic of the Russian gov't for years. They don't buy it because Iran doesn't have any missile capabilities worth mentioning, compared to the threat of nuclear strike capabilities against Russia that could be over in seconds rather than minutes. The critic said it's unreasonable to think that sheild was meant for Iran.

 

Frankly I don't buy the Iranian excuse either, as IIRC the defense sheild came somewhat coincidentally to Iranian nuclear development, but the plans were already in place. I also think that the US would have partnered with Russia on it if both were genuinely worried about Iran together. It also fits in with Neo-con plans to establish a Pax-Americana through worldwide hedgemony (this has done nothing but piss off the rest of the world). I'm stretching to recall now, but I think Russia may see it as an encroachment by a NATO that's increasingly isolating them WRT places like Ukraine.

 

EDIT: The Wikipedia link above is important even if somewhat shocking, as it explains much that has transpired over the last ten years and why many things are still happening. Frankly, it makes me want to puke. But this brings the discussion of what Russia really is off kilter a bit even though it might shed some light on why they feel threatened.

[ThudMaker]

...Putin is to Russia what Obama is to the US. He is a national hero who brought order and dignity.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Putin is to Russia what Obama is to the US. He is a national hero who brought order and dignity.

 

 

And without even needing to take the oath of office. A true hero!!!

[Bryan316]

I was suspicious of why Russia was invading Georgia, since Russia has been far more concerned with fixing their own economy, than conquering other lands. They have resources, but need to properly utilize them.

 

Very interesting stuff.

[lug]

 

The journalist brought this up with a Russian literary dude who was a vocal critic of the Russian gov't for years. They don't buy it because Iran doesn't have any missile capabilities worth mentioning, compared to the threat of nuclear strike capabilities against Russia that could be over in seconds rather than minutes. The critic said it's unreasonable to think that sheild was meant for Iran. Frankly I don't buy the Iranian excuse either, as IIRC the defense sheild came somewhat coincidentally to Iranian nuclear development, but the plans were already in place. I also think that the US would have partnered with Russia on it if both were genuinely worried about Iran together. It also fits in with Neo-con plans to establish a Pax-Americana through worldwide hedgemony (this has done nothing but piss off the rest of the world). I'm stretching to recall now, but I think Russia may see it as an encroachment by a NATO that's increasingly isolating them WRT places like Ukraine. EDIT: The Wikipedia link above is important even if somewhat shocking, as it explains much that has transpired over the last ten years and why many things are still happening. Frankly, it makes me want to puke. But this brings the discussion of what Russia really is off kilter a bit even though it might shed some light on why they feel threatened.

 

 

That would have to assume we feel threatened by a russian missle attack more than an Iranian one. History doesn't agree.

[Jugghaid]

Is that why Russia just moved a ton of missles right next to Poland?

 

Sounds like a good excuse to me.

[bnyswonger]

The quips about Putin and KGB were so patently wrong that most youths in Russia are pissed that we misunderstand them so completely. Putin is to Russia what Obama is to the US. He is a national hero who brought order and dignity.

 

Putin is all about the power, baby. Sure, order is a side effect, but modern Russia is very much about who's in who's pocket. There are plenty of people in Russia who would characterize him as something besides a national hero.

 

So far Obama is nothing more to the US than a president-elect carrying some hopes and dreams. He will have to prove himself before he attains national hero status.

[philthygeezer]

 

This was stated by both the interviewee and the BBC commentary. Maybe I've misworded it but the jist of it is that Putin gave Russia what many hope Obama will give America. Russians feel that Putin is a national hero who has been completely misunderstood by the west.

 

The point of this thread is to show that our understanding of Russian geopolitics looks at outward signs but is likely fundamentally wrong in many ways.

[John S. Shinal]

It's important to realize that the institutionalized Russian paranoia is actually hard for us to understand in the west. They probably actually do believe much of what they are "officially" saying. The problem is it's not necessarily logically true.

 

For example, I don't think the proposed ABM system has NEARLY enough missiles or capability to stop more than a few incoming missiles. Naturally, the Russians view this as magnified 1000-fold, and roll out IRBMs that weren't even in the region before.

 

I hope some government () moves existing nuclear weapons stockpiles from Europeean bases to de-escalate the issue. There's no pressing need to have them there anyway. Any modern nuclear mission strategy that would require nukes at advanced bases could include a quick forward replenishment from US stocks.

[John S. Shinal]

It's important to realize that the institutionalized Russian paranoia is actually hard for us to understand in the west. They probably actually do believe much of what they are "officially" saying. The problem is it's not necessarily logically true.

 

For example, I don't think the proposed ABM system has NEARLY enough missiles or capability to stop more than a few incoming missiles. Naturally, the Russians view this as magnified 1000-fold, and roll out IRBMs that weren't even in the region before.

 

I hope some government () moves existing nuclear weapons stockpiles from Europeean bases to de-escalate the issue. There's no pressing need to have them there anyway. Any modern nuclear mission strategy that would require nukes at advanced bases could include a quick forward replenishment from US stocks.

[philthygeezer]

For example, I don't think the proposed ABM system has NEARLY enough missiles or capability to stop more than a few incoming missiles. Naturally, the Russians view this as magnified 1000-fold, and roll out IRBMs that weren't even in the region before. I hope some government ( ) moves existing nuclear weapons stockpiles from Europeean bases to de-escalate the issue. There's no pressing need to have them there anyway. Any modern nuclear mission strategy that would require nukes at advanced bases could include a quick forward replenishment from US stocks.

 

Ditto. I'm still curious as to the US pulling out of a nuclear proliferation treaty in 2002. Why now work with the cosignatories to fend off a new threat?

[philthygeezer]

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century

 

It's apparent that the goal was to establish a key 'balance of power' in Eastern Europe more with the Middle East in mind than Russia, but in my opinion the strategic placement of missiles still kept Russia in mind. However, I'll concede the point and gratefully accept correction.

 

Note 24 above strangely states (it doesn't seem like a reference), "

 

^ In its emphasis on developing and deploying

[hawkhuff]

Lately the BBC has had two different specials featuring a journalist going into Moscow/surrounding countryside and getting the scoop on popular opinion there about the west. Also, another went to South Ossetia. These changed my perspective by a wide margin. Despite overt signs of backsliding, they really have changed into into a successful form of capitalism, and for the first time in many years have their dignity and some spare coin to buy toys. They think that the west completely misunderstands them. They want to be left alone. The missile shield was a broken promise, since George Bush Senior promised not to encroach on their borders when the old system fell. A good question was raised: the west doesn't bother China. Why do they get all hot and bothered about Russia, who has had only 20 years to embrace Democracy and capitalism? This makes a lot of sense! Russia has moved into the modern era in it's own style. The quips about Putin and KGB were so patently wrong that most youths in Russia are pissed that we misunderstand them so completely. Putin is to Russia what Obama is to the US. He is a national hero who brought order and dignity. The other show was about the rape of South Ossetia. The British journalist has uncovered evidence of war crimes by Georgia, and even Georgian soldiers admit they burned down people's homes. There is much evidence to suggest that they fired indiscriminately into civilian homes and apartment blocks. The Russian response was slow and too late for many, but the South Ossetians welcomed them. This in no way condones the invasion of a sovereign nation by another, but it appears that there is way more to the picture than just simple empire-building. Truth is nearly always stranger than fiction, and I must say that tripping out to a few places in the FSU has convinced me that there is much misplaced fear about Russia from the West. George Junior's meeting with Putin was likely a smart one! Notwithstanding religulously-inspired terrorism, it's time to take on more peaceful world view and start talking instead of threatening and putting up missiles. Countries that get along, go along. The cold war and communism are long over according to Russians, and it's unfair to expect their system to look exactly like ours. I'll look for links to these specials, and if anyone has them please post. They were uniquely insightful - piercing through the sea of regurgitated rhetoric that passes for news these days.

 

Putin is a hero to the Russians like Obama is to the US? They bring order and dignity?

 

What did Obama do besides steal an election? In that regard he is probably the same as Putin. Order? What order? WTF?

 

He hasn't taken office yet and already there are those who are felating him? Why?

[Jugghaid]

 

What did Obama do besides steal an election?

 

 

Okay. I'm confused.

 

 

How exactly did Obama "steal" an election?

[hawkhuff]

Okay. I'm confused. How exactly did Obama "steal" an election?

 

ACORN and he made McCain look old.

[Jugghaid]

ACORN and he made McCain look old.

 

Somehow I doubt that ACORN made THAT big of a difference in the election. millions of votes....i don't think so.

 

 

I'm not super elated that Obama is our next prez either, but the whole lame-ass "stole the election" thing belonged to the dems for the last 8 years. How about we agree to let them just keep it, k?

[ThudMaker]

Somehow I doubt that ACORN made THAT big of a difference in the election. millions of votes....i don't think so. I'm not super elated that Obama is our next prez either, but the whole lame-ass "stole the election" thing belonged to the dems for the last 8 years. How about we agree to let them just keep it, k?

The same percentage of registered voters voted in 2008 as they did in 2004. It's just that now there are more registered voters . . . . . .

[philthygeezer]

Putin is a hero to the Russians like Obama is to the US? They bring order and dignity? What did Obama do besides steal an election? In that regard he is probably the same as Putin. Order? What order? WTF? He hasn't taken office yet and already there are those who are felating him? Why?

 

Please see post #11.

 

If you think Obama stole that election, then it seems like you misconstrue and denigrate the will and intelligence of your fellow voters. Your sour grapes seem insulting.

[Emprov]

 

Putin is to Russia what Obama is to the US. He is a national hero who brought order and dignity.

 

My wife was in Russia last year for business. She and the two people that she was with (both US citizens) were detained by police. They explained that, if they gave the two officers money, they'd be allowed to go. My wife and her friends gave them the equivalent of $200 US and they were able to go free.

[philthygeezer]

Here is the BBC special on Russia:

 

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Part 1

 

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Part 2

 

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Part 3

[philthygeezer]

[YOUTUBE]BGaAT8Bx0vo[/YOUTUBE]

 

George Friedman of Stratfor weighs in on US-Russia relations.

[lug]

 

That would have to assume we feel threatened by a russian missle attack more than an Iranian one. History doesn't agree.

 

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE4AB1WG20081112

*****

Iran test-fires new missile, Israel within reach

*****