Members moogieotter Posted November 17, 2009 Members Share Posted November 17, 2009 http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/11/dutch-road-tax/ Been on the road for work a lot. Back with a thread. Ok, a couple of questions about this article. First, wouldn't a straight up fuel tax not perfectly balance usage without all the GPS overhead and privacy concerns? I mean less driving = less fuel tax paid, more fuel efficient car = less fuel tax paid, etc? Second, the privacy concerns over having GPS on all cars with data going to the gov't. While I understand how in principle this might contradict some freedom, I personally do not go anywhere in my car that I would not gladly and freely share with anyone. This is like the whole "ooh, the gov't is secretly tape recording telephone calls and we should all fight this and freak out about it." I completely get the idea that in these cases freedom is being sacrificed for security, but once again I personally do not say anything on the telephone that I would not gladly publish transcripts of, print out, and give to anyone on the street to read. But this makes me wonder about the outrage. What kinds of places are other people driving to and what types of telephone calls are other people making that are so illicit that I might be missing out on? The only things I can think of are drugs and sex as far as common taboos or illicit activities that people might like to hide. Are the privacy concerns simply extensions of fear that people might find out that people are perverts or get wasted on some drugs once in a while? Maybe there are some other small crimes that I am missing out on that involve driving a car or making phone calls. I understand that political groups and revolutionaries of upon which humanity was carried through to this point needed privacy in many cases, but why should the average Joe give a {censored}? Thanks and looking forward to a bass player persepctive. moog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lug Posted November 17, 2009 Members Share Posted November 17, 2009 I agree with your first question. Why go to all the trouble of tracking everyone's movements if you could just add a tax on the gas? You get the added "benefit" of upping the tax on evil people with low mileage vehicles to boot! This even fights the evil global warming better. Makes one wonder why they'd go to all the trouble and expense of tracking movements. Smacks a bit of future police enforcement benefits to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ender_rpm Posted November 17, 2009 Members Share Posted November 17, 2009 Because it's the Netherlands and they don't have fleets of V8 powered grocery getters commuting 55 miles to the mall and soccer practice everyday. Also, there are a number of vehicles that run all day, but may not actually GO anywhere (farm tractors, police cars on "stationary patrol", airport shuttle busses, etc), so why tax them at the same rate? Plus, this hits everyone who drives the same, no matter how efficient their vehicle is. re: privacy- I think it's less a questio of what am I up to than why the hell do you need to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Super Bass Posted November 17, 2009 Members Share Posted November 17, 2009 Honestly I think this is a good idea, but they should take into account the vehicle engine size or emissions as a factor. It shouldn't be purely based on mileage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lug Posted November 17, 2009 Members Share Posted November 17, 2009 Honestly I think this is a good idea, but they should take into account the vehicle engine size or emissions as a factor. It shouldn't be purely based on mileage. It's not. From the article.. "The tax would vary by the type and weight of automobile. Buses, taxis, vehicles owned by the disabled and motorcycles would be exempted." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members i_wanna_les_paul Posted November 17, 2009 Members Share Posted November 17, 2009 Also, there are a number of vehicles that run all day, but may not actually GO anywhere (farm tractors, police cars on "stationary patrol", airport shuttle busses, etc), so why tax them at the same rate? Plus, this hits everyone who drives the same, no matter how efficient their vehicle is. On this point, the U.S. uses tax-free red-dyed diesel (because most large equipment here uses diesel) for off-road-only vehicles to get around this problem. No reason it couldn't be done for gasoline if need be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators isaac42 Posted November 17, 2009 Moderators Share Posted November 17, 2009 http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/11/dutch-road-tax/ Been on the road for work a lot. Back with a thread. Ok, a couple of questions about this article. First, wouldn't a straight up fuel tax not perfectly balance usage without all the GPS overhead and privacy concerns? I mean less driving = less fuel tax paid, more fuel efficient car = less fuel tax paid, etc? Second, the privacy concerns over having GPS on all cars with data going to the gov't. While I understand how in principle this might contradict some freedom, I personally do not go anywhere in my car that I would not gladly and freely share with anyone. This is like the whole "ooh, the gov't is secretly tape recording telephone calls and we should all fight this and freak out about it." I completely get the idea that in these cases freedom is being sacrificed for security, but once again I personally do not say anything on the telephone that I would not gladly publish transcripts of, print out, and give to anyone on the street to read. But this makes me wonder about the outrage. What kinds of places are other people driving to and what types of telephone calls are other people making that are so illicit that I might be missing out on? The only things I can think of are drugs and sex as far as common taboos or illicit activities that people might like to hide. Are the privacy concerns simply extensions of fear that people might find out that people are perverts or get wasted on some drugs once in a while? Maybe there are some other small crimes that I am missing out on that involve driving a car or making phone calls. I understand that political groups and revolutionaries of upon which humanity was carried through to this point needed privacy in many cases, but why should the average Joe give a {censored}? Thanks and looking forward to a bass player persepctive. moog My thoughts on those issues is that the government currently in power is not necessarily the government that will always be in power. Give up to the government your privacy rights, and it becomes much more difficult in the future to oppose a tyrannical government, should one come to power again, as they always seem to, sooner or later. While you might not be going anywhere or saying anything now that you don't want them to know about, that might not always be the case. And if not you then perhaps some other freedom fighter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Super Bass Posted November 17, 2009 Members Share Posted November 17, 2009 It's not. From the article.."The tax would vary by the type and weight of automobile. Buses, taxis, vehicles owned by the disabled and motorcycles would be exempted." Ok, however if the tax was placed on fuel it would be hard to distinguish between the vehicles. Do you think garages woud appreciate having two different pay scales? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lug Posted November 17, 2009 Members Share Posted November 17, 2009 Ok, however if the tax was placed on fuel it would be hard to distinguish between the vehicles. Do you think garages woud appreciate having two different pay scales? The vehicle with the worse MPG naturally pays more tax by consuming more per mile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members NeonVomit Posted November 17, 2009 Members Share Posted November 17, 2009 I don't know if this is such a great idea. But can anyone who lives there give us their take on it? If they tried that in Cyprus there would be a mass uprising. People live by their cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members moogieotter Posted November 17, 2009 Author Members Share Posted November 17, 2009 My thoughts on those issues is that the government currently in power is not necessarily the government that will always be in power. Give up to the government your privacy rights, and it becomes much more difficult in the future to oppose a tyrannical government, should one come to power again, as they always seem to, sooner or later. While you might not be going anywhere or saying anything now that you don't want them to know about, that might not always be the case. And if not you then perhaps some other freedom fighter. Great point. Thanks for your insight. moog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rowka Posted November 17, 2009 Members Share Posted November 17, 2009 Why not just take odometer readings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members collinwho Posted November 17, 2009 Members Share Posted November 17, 2009 I'm not opposed to other countries doing this. I would be opposed if it was happening here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rippin' Robin Posted November 17, 2009 Members Share Posted November 17, 2009 Must a few thoughts on the article.... A straight up fuel tax is already here and has been for decades. More than 2/3rd of the cost of a litre of petrol is tax over here. Also, this cost-per-kilometre tax is going to replace a flat fee tax that all owners of a car pay, regardless of whether they actually drive that car. The height of this flat fee is determined by the weight of the car and the fuel type. This is a double-edged sword for the government. If it actually works, people will drive less and this will lose the government more money than the cost-per-kilometre actually gains. The automobile is the government's favourite milking cow. For my last car, I paid -62 euros (about $87) monthly in owner's tax, whether I drove 0 miles or 10000 miles-about 1 euro per litre fuel (that's $5,30 per gallon) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lug Posted November 18, 2009 Members Share Posted November 18, 2009 Must a few thoughts on the article.... A straight up fuel tax is already here and has been for decades. More than 2/3rd of the cost of a litre of petrol is tax over here. Also, this cost-per-kilometre tax is going to replace a flat fee tax that all owners of a car pay, regardless of whether they actually drive that car. The height of this flat fee is determined by the weight of the car and the fuel type. This is a double-edged sword for the government. If it actually works, people will drive less and this will lose the government more money than the cost-per-kilometre actually gains. The automobile is the government's favourite milking cow. For my last car, I paid -62 euros (about $87) monthly in owner's tax, whether I drove 0 miles or 10000 miles -about 1 euro per litre fuel (that's $5,30 per gallon) sings... And I'm Proud to be an American Where at least my gas is almost Free..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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