Behind the Curtain- Filling the sides when using IEM's

[wheresgrant3]

So last year we became an all IEM band with the exception of our drummer (who hates anything in his ears) who is using a powered wedge and the results have been marvelous. On stage everything seems so much tighter. My ears are ringing less, everyone sings in pitch and never any feedback. We're also able to keep our backline very low, which is an advantage for volume concerns. The only drawback I see is no bleed from the stage monitors, which used to bleed sound into the dead spaces inmmediately infront and to the sides of the stage. Why would we want sound bleeding to the sides of stage? Because some venues we play don't always have a defined stage area. In these cases we're not playing on a stage, just a stage area and some of the audience will tend to sit on the sides of the stage area or even at times behind the band. We're concerned particularly with the area right in front of our singer, sometimes to the left or right of our stage area. These deads zones are almost impossible to hear defined vocals and sometimes guitar in the mix.

 

I'm posting this crap video from a gig we did this weekend at a ski resort. It shows what I'm talking about . They stuck us in an awkward space... facing the opposite wall of a large ski lodge. The main audience was dead center however some people and passerby's we're snaked all around the side of the band in a open area (about 50-75 people). About 40 secs into the clip the camera walks behind the FOH and the world drops out. I'll forewarn that the mic on this camera doesn't pick up hardly any bass response. Still you can hear the vocals drop, guitar, drop... what's left is a bit of keys and alot of drums.

 

[YOUTUBE]vm35AAfadIM[/YOUTUBE]

 

We're debating if this is an issue... There are 2 or 3 regular venues where we experience a similar problem and people complain they can't hear well. Plus when singers sit in with us (occasionally) the have 0% monitors. We've felt bad for more than a few that have come up to sing. We're thinking of placing two smaller powered speakers inward, at waist level (sitting on the subs) in a crossing 'x' pattern across the center of the stage at a lower volume but we're worried about feedback or combing issues.

 

Just wondering what you would do...

[JBJ]

the camera might as well be onstage.

 

i wouldn't worry about it to be totally honest.

 

if people want to hear the band properly they'll move...

[modulusman]

In some places we play I will use a powered mackie 450 aimed toward a dead spot in the room. With my mixer I can adjust the volume seperately from the main mix. I usually just put the vocals,act guitar and a little electric guitar in the 450 and call it good.

[Zeromus-X]

Looks like a fun show.

 

Also... deja vu? Had you posted this same question a few months back?

 

In our situation, we're flying the mains, which leaves a large dead spot in the center... especially for gigs where there's minimal space to hang the truss, so the speakers tend to be almost parallel with some of the people dancing. I'm working on a solution there, too.

[MrKnobs]

Traditionally this problem is handled with "fill" speakers. Why not take two of your old wedges and set them on stage pointed in a crossing pattern toward the audience to fill the dead zone in the middle? When you have a guest singer, turn one around to face him or her.

 

Otherwise, I agree with JBJ. The people in the dead zone don't really care about the sound, they're there to get as close to the band as possible and be part of the excitement.

 

Terry D.

[Crazy88Fingers]

 

Traditionally this problem is handled with "fill" speakers. Why not take two of your old wedges and set them on stage pointed in a crossing pattern toward the audience to fill the dead zone in the middle? When you have a guest singer, turn one around to face him or her. Otherwise, I agree with JBJ. The people in the dead zone don't really care about the sound, they're there to get as close to the band as possible and be part of the excitement. Terry D.

 

 

 

Ditto. The only practical solution is more speakers where you need them. Even just one wedge on center stage, facing the audience, would make things a little better.

[Hamer_Time]

Wow, that is pretty dramatic. However, I think that a lot of the time people end up on the side of the stage for that very reason: they want a break from the volume of the mains up front. However, I would think a couple of small powered wedges would make the difference.

 

BTW, how are you guys handling/adjusting to the loss of the ambient noise of the room, or are you miking and mixing that in a little? That was always my issue with in-ears is that they worked too well (sounds stupid I know) and without some room noise, it was hard to really feel what was happening.

[Zeromus-X]

 

Wow, that is pretty dramatic. However, I think that a lot of the time people end up on the side of the stage for that very reason: they want a break from the volume of the mains up front. However, I would think a couple of small powered wedges would make the difference. BTW, how are you guys handling/adjusting to the loss of the ambient noise of the room, or are you miking and mixing that in a little? That was always my issue with in-ears is that they worked too well (sounds stupid I know) and without some room noise, it was hard to really feel what was happening.

 

 

I stuck a condenser mic behind my kit pointed straight out, and we've also got one open mic pointed at the crowd on the stage that feeds into everyone's IEMs. It lets me add a little bit of crowd noise to the IEM feed.

 

I'm actually thinking about running that mic through a compressor with the rest of the mix sidechained into it, and cranking it up. Think of your local radio morning show -- they start talking and everything in the background dies down, then they stop and you hear the background music again. I'd think that same principle could be applied; when we're playing, that mic is essentially reduced to nothing, but when we stop, that mic level comes back up again.

[wheresgrant3]

We started noticing it the sound loss when we dropped a few wedges in the front. Now it is pretty dramatic since we've removed all the wedges. Mostly we're worried about the vocals which are now completely supported by the two main's. I think you're all right, most people will find where they want to be (in front or on the side of the band). Still in some cases an additional speaker will help with fill. Our main's are Yorkville EF500P's which are 800 watts each. I'm thinking of using Yorkville NX550P's for side and center fill.

 

Actually these Tapco Thumps are getting great reviews and, well for the purpose and the price it might just fit the bill. I could snag a pair for $600.

http://www.zzounds.com/productreview--TAPTH15S

[wheresgrant3]

BTW, how are you guys handling/adjusting to the loss of the ambient noise of the room, or are you miking and mixing that in a little? That was always my issue with in-ears is that they worked too well (sounds stupid I know) and without some room noise, it was hard to really feel what was happening.

 

We run a mic side stage facing the crowd. We bypass the mains and go right to the monitors. It's the same mic our soundguy uses for sound check. Before that it was like an invisible wall between us and the crowd.

[Hamer_Time]

 

I stuck a condenser mic behind my kit pointed straight out, and we've also got one open mic pointed at the crowd on the stage that feeds into everyone's IEMs. It lets me add a little bit of crowd noise to the IEM feed. I'm actually thinking about running that mic through a compressor with the rest of the mix sidechained into it, and cranking it up. Think of your local radio morning show -- they start talking and everything in the background dies down, then they stop and you hear the background music again. I'd think that same principle could be applied; when we're playing, that mic is essentially reduced to nothing, but when we stop, that mic level comes back up again.

 

 

That sounds likea really good idea. I am interested to know how that works for you.

[fastplant]

When we used to all use IEMs, we still kept monitors on stage. You never know when your battery might die out, or something goes wrong with the IEM, ear bud pops out, etc. Better safe than sorry. We would, however, keep the monitors slightly lower in volume than they would be had we not had the IEMs.

[Hamer_Time]

 

When we used to all use IEMs, we still kept monitors on stage. You never know when your battery might die out, or something goes wrong with the IEM, ear bud pops out, etc. Better safe than sorry. We would, however, keep the monitors slightly lower in volume than they would be had we not had the IEMs.

 

 

Wow, that just peaked my laziness meter into the red......still it seems like a good idea though.

[fastplant]

 

Wow, that just peaked my laziness meter into the red......still it seems like a good idea though.

 

 

We tend to go overboard with alot of stuff. We do alot of unnecessary stuff, but to us it's worth it. To the average person at the bar, I doubt they'd even notice, haha.

 

But then, lately we haven't even been using our IEMs. Our main sound guy gets us really good monitors so I haven't seen the need. But I've been thinking of trying them out again. But who knows if after the digital conversion if any of my wireless stuff will still even work.

[MrKnobs]

BTW, how are you guys handling/adjusting to the loss of the ambient noise of the room, or are you miking and mixing that in a little? That was always my issue with in-ears is that they worked too well (sounds stupid I know) and without some room noise, it was hard to really feel what was happening.

 

When we bring the full band (rare these days), we have a rack mount PSM400 system (hope it still works after FEB!) and we get ambient feed mixed in from a little condenser mike at FOH.

 

When we play smaller format, we use our PSM200 systems with a little ambient tieclip mike plugged into the belt pack. I have both the official Shure tieclip ambient mike (they gave it to me) and a Radio Shack cheapie, they both work fine.

 

Terry D.

[Zeromus-X]

 

But then, lately we haven't even been using our IEMs. Our main sound guy gets us really good monitors so I haven't seen the need. But I've been thinking of trying them out again. But who knows if after the digital conversion if any of my wireless stuff will still even work.

 

 

I like switching it up every now and then, actually. I love using the IEMs at most gigs, but occasionally we play bigger places with provided systems, and rather than have them try to route the signal to the in-ears and deal with a crazy mix, I just tell 'em to crank the volume to 11 and enjoy the show.

 

I will definitely say that with IEMs, I feel better at the end of the night. My ears aren't ringing (my mix is ridiculously quiet, something I never thought I'd say, EVER), and I tend to play lighter/quieter with IEMs on as well (presumably since I can hear the drums through my IEMs and can just turn them up if they aren't loud... instead of having to compete with a blasting guitar amp). I'm sure that helps our FOH sound too.

[Kramerguy]

I agree with Hamer on the point that I think some people tend to move to the side to get away from the loud music, therefore it's a benefit IMO, not a hindrance.