Getting paid

[Austincowbell]

With all due respect, that is kind of a specious argument. It's a bit like saying that unless you have been shot at in combat in the military, you can't have any opinion about war, or if you've never been a millionaire, you have no right to judge the lifestyles of the rich and famous. The fact is, all of us express opinions all the time about things we've never experienced first hand at all. Experience with something is neither an automatic qualifier nor makes anyone an expert on any given topic. You may disagree with 6SS, but it doesn't mean his opinion isn't a valid one, especially with a topic as subjective as this one. Experience is irrelevant to the idea of whether one should be paid for providing a service or not.

 

 

I disagree. This isn't an opinion on music in general, it's one about playing gigs which is a very specific aspect of music. Your analogy would work if we were talking about set lists or genres or any number of topics but when it comes to the conditions under which one plays gigs I think personal experience is a requirement.

Regardless, the OP made a straw man argument about gigging musicians complaining about their pay at the end of the night. He said "people are not finding out up front what the real deal is and adjusting their expectations/requirements accordingly". I would guess that 95% or more of the people on this forum know EXACTLY what they are to be paid at the end of the night. I don't think anyone here has posted a thread about playing a gig with an undefined payment agreement and being disappointed.

[Austincowbell]

You feel like? Wow, after some of the posts you've made in BSWTB I would've thought that bashing your head against a wall was just part of your pre-gig warm-up. I would never go so far as to the call the guitaraoke stuff I do a gig, but I play live in front of an audience 8-10 days a month. I play the songs I like and I play them the way I want with the gear of my choice. I dress the way I want and act the way I want. In other words, I have fun doing what I want to do, the way I want to do it and my hobby stays a hobby and doesn't become work. WTF does it matter if I gig or not? There are people here who bitch about how much they get paid. There are people here who bitch about how the bar/club pay hasn't changed since the 70's. All I'm saying, is that if you choose to play for less than your own perceived worth, then you shouldn't be bitching about it because you're the one who decided to play for that amount. It's pretty simple to just not play. I frequently get offers to play for pay or even teach for pay. I don't even ask how much, I just politely decline. I frequently get offers to start or audition for bands. I don't ask any questions, I just politely decline. Hell, just last weekend someone offered to pay me just to jam with him. It has nothing to do with how much of a guitarist/musician I think I am, it has to do with the value I place on my time. The average person/band probably can't afford my time and I don't want to insult them with some ridiculous dollar figure so I just politely decline. i.e. I CHOOSE NOT TO PLAY.

That is all very interesting but my point is/was that you are making a complaint on behalf of gigging musicians who aren't making that complaint. As stated above, we all know exactly what we're getting when we play a show. Are we always happy with it? No. But we always know almost exactly what the amount will be. People voice their opinions about wanting more money but I'm sure if you went to ANY forum people in all vocations would want more money. Our pay is a known issue and accepting it is our option.

[wades_keys]

With all due respect, that is kind of a specious argument. It's a bit like saying that unless you have been shot at in combat in the military, you can't have any opinion about war, or if you've never been a millionaire, you have no right to judge the lifestyles of the rich and famous. The fact is, all of us express opinions all the time about things we've never experienced first hand at all. Experience with something is neither an automatic qualifier nor makes anyone an expert on any given topic. You may disagree with 6SS, but it doesn't mean his opinion isn't a valid one, especially with a topic as subjective as this one. Experience is irrelevant to the idea of whether one should be paid for providing a service or not.

 

You know what?

 

I agree with this: I've seen firsthand what a difference having someone with good business sense in the band can make.

 

In my case, the individual has minimal past band experience: a few "one gig wonders" and basement bands.

 

BUT - he is top-ranked sales executive at a major national food distributor.

 

This guy knows how to promote, how to talk to people, how to schedule time: You would be hard pressed to find someone that operates on his level from purely a "band business" background.

[Austincowbell]

You know what? I agree with this: I've seen firsthand what a difference having someone with good business sense in the band can make. In my case, the individual has minimal past band experience: a few "one gig wonders" and basement bands. BUT - he is top-ranked sales executive at a major national food distributor. This guy knows how to promote, how to talk to people, how to schedule time: You would be hard pressed to find someone that operates on his level from purely a "band business" background.

 

I'm actually that guy in our band. I've operated a business for 12 years and I've done everything from marketing to networking and I'm actually very good at it. I wasn't saying the 6ss doesn't have a right to express what he should be paid, I was saying that his assertion was that musicians complain when they get paid less than they expected and I was refuting it by saying that musicians generally know EXACTLY what they are getting paid. My pointing out his lack of gigging was an illustration that if he was a regularly gigging musician he would know that payment is agreed upon prior to the show.

[Janx]

With all due respect, that is kind of a specious argument. It's a bit like saying that unless you have been shot at in combat in the military, you can't have any opinion about war, or if you've never been a millionaire, you have no right to judge the lifestyles of the rich and famous. The fact is, all of us express opinions all the time about things we've never experienced first hand at all. Experience with something is neither an automatic qualifier nor makes anyone an expert on any given topic. You may disagree with 6SS, but it doesn't mean his opinion isn't a valid one, especially with a topic as subjective as this one. Experience is irrelevant to the idea of whether one should be paid for providing a service or not.

 

 

I concur.

 

I also think the opinion value has to do with can the giver being able to relate to it, based on their other experiences.

 

I can't tell somebody how to drum. I've not played in a gigging rock band. But I do have experience with getting people to work together and coordinate and communicate. I do have experience working and getting paid.

 

This topic is about getting paid. Paid for what isn't that important. Thus lots of people CAN relate to it, and express some pretty valid opinions on the topic.

 

Now back to the OT. I was under the impression, the real complaint about getting paid is that folks would like to get paid more, and that they feel that the following factors are working against them:

too many musicians in the market

too many musicians playing for cheap/free reducing asking price

too many cheap club-owners who don't appreciate the value

too many audiences who don't appreciate the music

 

When people complain, one reason is because they feel that they can't change anything. Or at least, they can't change the parts they are complaining about. And this is usually triggered by the idea that they can't change themselves (or aren't willing to). It's possible to not be doing anything "wrong" and fall into this situation.

 

Now if you're going to actually solve the problem...

 

1) make sure your product and presentation is good

2) set a standard and don't go below it

3) lobby to get a majority of musicians to agree to the standard

4) increase public perception that those who fall below the standard are "low quality"

5) increase venue perception that they "get what they pay for"

6) increase public demand for local music as being "hip", "cool", or popular.

 

I heard an interesting article on NPR the other day, talking about a big name rapper, and how he's attacking other rappers (verbally) because they use auto-tuners. He's basically trying to do those steps. Since he's a big name, he has a chance of making it work. In theory, that's what a musicians union was for.

 

The first 2 items I list are about fixing your own house. The rest, that's gonna take some work. And marketing. It ain't gonna be easy. But technically, that's what's gotta happen.

[wades_keys]

I'm actually that guy in our band. I've operated a business for 12 years and I've done everything from marketing to networking and I'm actually very good at it. I wasn't saying the 6ss doesn't have a right to express what he should be paid, I was saying that his assertion was that musicians complain when they get paid less than they expected and I was refuting it by saying that musicians generally know EXACTLY what they are getting paid. My pointing out his lack of gigging was an illustration that if he was a regularly gigging musician he would know that payment is agreed upon prior to the show.

Ahhh....If that's what he was talking about, then yeah: you're dead right of course.

That's not how I recall it; but in all honesty, we got on so many tangents here I can't even remember the actual wording of the OP.

S'all good.

[JAFH]

It doesn't really matter to me, as long as it doesn't COST me to play.
That said, my band typically does pretty well. We never play a gig for less than $100.00 per person and often play for a lot more. Either way, most of it just gets invested in the band - equipment, maintenance, gas, website, etc.
I think that unless you are doing this for a living, you just need to accept that it is, in fact your hobby...and most people don't get paid for their hobbies. We, as musicians, are some of the few who actually do, so good for us.

Oh yeah - we also sort-of see the bar gigs as a great place to hook up with big-money private gigs, so we are getting paid to market our band to a larger audience. This whole conversation is really just a practive in perspectives. I don't see playing music as a business for me, because I have a job. Sometimes I do open mics just for fun...

[Kid Icarus]

 

so I just politely decline. i.e. I CHOOSE NOT TO PLAY.

 

 

That's fine, sit on the bench all season and let the players on the court decide what kind of figures they want from the big leagues.

[6StringSling]

 

My pointing out his lack of gigging was an illustration that if he was a regularly gigging musician he would know that payment is agreed upon prior to the show.

 

Well duh.

 

I don't need to be a gigging musician to know that because it falls under the standards of freelance work which I HAVE done. But even though gig money has been agreed upon beforehand, people have STILL come into the forum and bitched about the pay. Which prompted this thread in first place and my contention is still the same - if you're going to play for less than your perceived value why bitch about it? Just don't play and you won't be getting screwed.

[pink floyd cramer]

It has nothing to do with how much of a guitarist/musician I think I am, it has to do with the value I place on my time. The average person/band probably can't afford my time and I don't want to insult them with some ridiculous dollar figure so I just politely decline. i.e. I CHOOSE NOT TO PLAY.

 

 

How do you know that doing a gig would not be worth your time except for some "ridiculous dollar figure"? How can you make that decision, or decide for yourself that playing music for money is work and not fun, if you have never even done it? That's like hearing people bitch about relationships so deciding you're going to avoid all that by remaining a virgin.

 

Kid Icarus' sports metaphor is a good one IMO. Get in the game, dammit! I can promise you it is alot more fun than snarking from the sidelines. YOU CAN DO IT!

[6StringSling]

 

How do you know that doing a gig would not be worth your time except for some "ridiculous dollar figure"? How can you make that decision, or decide for yourself that playing music for money is work and not fun, if you have never even done it? Get in the game, dammit! I can promise you it is alot more fun than snarking from the sidelines. YOU CAN DO IT!

 

I think you're missing the point - I already play out and I do it on my terms and I have fun. I don't want to play in a band unless I am in as complete control over everything as possible but I don't want to pay the cost to do that either. So why would I join a band and have to compromise what I want to do for the good of the band? Why would I want to have to haggle for money? Why would I want to have to learn to play songs I don't like? Why would I want to play in places that I don't like?

 

The guy who owns the company that provides the Karaoke at the bar I play at could sell what I do as a semi-annual thing at bars/clubs all over the metro area if I could put together enough material for a 5-hour show. In that case, I would be paid to play. While the idea has a certain interest for me, at the same time, how long would it be before I was "encouraged" to add this or that song. I'm sure that there would be "requests" for country music and why would I want to ruin my guitars by playing country music with them? Why would I want to take Dramamine just to get through Santeria? Does Dramamine even mix with vodka?

 

What it would really come down to is that my complete freedom of choice would be gone in place of making some extra money and I'm not down with that right now.

[modulusman]

I think you're missing the point - I already play out and I do it on my terms and I have fun. I don't want to play in a band unless I am in as complete control over everything as possible but I don't want to pay the cost to do that either. So why would I join a band and have to compromise what I want to do for the good of the band? Why would I want to have to haggle for money? Why would I want to have to learn to play songs I don't like? Why would I want to play in places that I don't like? The guy who owns the company that provides the Karaoke at the bar I play at could sell what I do as a semi-annual thing at bars/clubs all over the metro area if I could put together enough material for a 5-hour show. In that case, I would be paid to play. While the idea has a certain interest for me, at the same time, how long would it be before I was "encouraged" to add this or that song. I'm sure that there would be "requests" for country music and why would I want to ruin my guitars by playing country music with them? Why would I want to take Dramamine just to get through Santeria? Does Dramamine even mix with vodka? What it would really come down to is that my complete freedom of choice would be gone in place of making some extra money and I'm not down with that right now.

You might have to actually spend some money and get a guitar that is good enough to play some country.:poke:

[BlueStrat]

 

As stated above, we all know exactly what we're getting when we play a show.

Really? I seem to see an awful lot of guys here in bands who never seem to know what they're getting until the door is counted up at the end of the night and all the other bands get paid-if there's anything left.

 

I've done lots of small guarantee vs door gigs in the past and made anywhere from +1000 dollars to losing 300 after expenses.

[Austincowbell]

Really? I seem to see an awful lot of guys here in bands who never seem to know what they're getting until the door is counted up at the end of the night and all the other bands get paid-if there's anything left. I've done lots of small guarantee vs door gigs in the past and made anywhere from +1000 dollars to losing 300 after expenses.

I meant that most musicians know the terms of their payment before playing a gig. I know that I'll be paid the door or 10% of the bar or a guaranty. I don't play a gig and negotiate payment after the gig.

 

With regards to the now amended OP's hypothesis that bands shouldn't play gigs if they are unhappy with the amount they earn it seems very hypocritical. He does whatever he does for free because he enjoys it. And that's fine. A lot of people are in bands because they enjoy being in one. Would we like to be paid more for shows? Sure. By the same token, I completed a business transaction last week where my commission was horrible. BUT: I made the customer happy and the vendor happy and I did make some money. My options were 1)don't do the deal and make zero money and have a pissed off client and vendor or 2)do the deal, make some money and make everyone happy. I went with 2.

 

with regards to the notion that people shouldn't do things they complain about...

In the last 6 months people on this forum have complained about

being married

playing one or two songs in a set that they don't like

having a bandmate with whom they disagree

having kids

lack of activity on their myspace page.

 

Are you saying people shouldn't do any of those things either?

 

People are going to complain about various aspects of their lives, including work. For many people, gigging IS work and their complaints about payment are no different than someone coming home from their job and complaining about their wage. Sure, they want more money, but everyone needs a job.

 

6SS - You seem to have a once-a-month thread/post where you infer that you are somehow smarter than or better off than those who gig and you defend yourself against invisible assailants. If you want to bring your guitar to a karaoke bar I personally don't care. That's well within your right. But self righteous tone with which you address gigging musicians rings of insecurity.

[BlueStrat]

 

Are you saying people shouldn't do any of those things either?

 

 

I never offered that thesis to begin with. I'm pretty sure I said the opposite: that not having experience with something does NOT necessarily disqualify you from having an informed opinion about it.

[pink floyd cramer]

So why would I join a band and have to compromise what I want to do for the good of the band? Why would I want to have to haggle for money? Why would I want to have to learn to play songs I don't like? Why would I want to play in places that I don't like?

 

 

Most of us do those things- at least every once in awhile, but still enjoy gigs and think of our guitars/drumkits etc. as something more than tools with which to make money. There are undoubtedly more lucrative and stable ways to supplement your income, but they're not as rewarding or fun as playing in a band- that's why we play.

 

Sorry, couldn't resist taking one more swing at the dead horse...

[wades_keys]

You might have to actually spend some money and get a guitar that is good enough to play some country.:poke:

DOH.

[wades_keys]

Most of us do those things- at least every once in awhile, but still enjoy gigs and think of our guitars/drumkits etc. as something more than tools with which to make money. There are undoubtedly more lucrative and stable ways to supplement your income, but they're not as rewarding or fun as playing in a band- that's why we play.

Yeah, If I was all about the money I'd pick up more I.T. consulting gigs (i've got one part-time consulting gig already that pays WAY more than any band ever could, with less risk and less upfront expense to boot)

[Austincowbell]

I never offered that thesis to begin with. I'm pretty sure I said the opposite: that not having experience with something does NOT necessarily disqualify you from having an informed opinion about it.

 

 

Sorry, that was meant for the OP.