Arrangments

[crossways]

Someone in another thread mentioned immature arrangments in a band. That brought to mind a question I have been thinking about when it comes to original bands esp.

 

I hear cover bands generally doing a fair job with arrangments, and I think it is generally because they have a model to go from. They don't always copy the original song's arrangment exactly but they seem to put thought into an arrangment.

 

Original bands (in my area especially so as not to generalize too much) seem to put thought into lyrics, a chord progression and maybe a riff. Then the whole band just kind of plays on top of each other. They may have 2 guitars, bass, vocals, drums, maybe even keys and they are all playing all the time.

 

So I guess my question to the forum is, when you folks that are in bands that write originals how much time is spent on arranging the song for your instrumentation? Do you simply let each member do his/her thing? Does the primary song writer of that song lay it out?

 

I think that is what I find boring about a lot of the MySpace hoard of original music. I can hear some good nuggets..a melody, or riff..but it is usually performed with this wall of instrumentation that is full on all the time.

[TrickyBoy]

 

Someone in another thread mentioned immature arrangments in a band. That brought to mind a question I have been thinking about when it comes to original bands esp. I hear cover bands generally doing a fair job with arrangments, and I think it is generally because they have a model to go from. They don't always copy the original song's arrangment exactly but they seem to put thought into an arrangment. Original bands (in my area especially so as not to generalize too much) seem to put thought into lyrics, a chord progression and maybe a riff. Then the whole band just kind of plays on top of each other. They may have 2 guitars, bass, vocals, drums, maybe even keys and they are all playing all the time. So I guess my question to the forum is, when you folks that are in bands that write originals how much time is spent on arranging the song for your instrumentation? Do you simply let each member do his/her thing? Does the primary song writer of that song lay it out? I think that is what I find boring about a lot of the MySpace hoard of original music. I can hear some good nuggets..a melody, or riff..but it is usually performed with this wall of instrumentation that is full on all the time.

 

 

IMO - It goes back to basic songwriting - immature songwriting works like this:

 

1. Guitarist shows up with cool lick / chord change

2. He yells out the chords, the bassist plays the root note of each chord and the 2nd guitarist plays the same thing as the first one.

3. Drummer listens and lays down a beat

4. Singer vamps a melody and words

 

There you go - we have a new song!

 

My experience has been that bands that produce better songs DON'T write in a democratic fashion. They generally have one member that shows up with a nearly composed song which includes bass line, two separate guitar parts, a melody/lyrics and a rhythmic idea. He/she has already thought of things such as dynamics, when stops will occur, which parts will be guitar and vocals only and which will have the whole band playing.

 

Each member then gets input on their part, but the main structure of the song is one person's vision.

 

To me, I can't think of a band that I like where the bass player always follows around the guitarists chords. Yet, often times when you walk into a local club, that's every song. That to me is a sign that their songs aren't being COMPOSED and ARRANGED. It's just a chord change and everyone else is playing follow the leader.

[underground66]

To me..this can be the most fun (and frustrating) part of the songwriting process. You can make it as simple as you want, Verse-Chorus-Verse-Chorus-Bridge-Chorus or you can get really wacky. What I love about this part is that at this point it's about serving the song. It should let you know what it's asking for. My guitarist and I really click on this level, so when we are putting it together, we rarely have disagreements because there's a fair amount of respect involved. The one thing we have stuck to for our first album is to make the songs short. We have one guitar solo throughout the whole CD, and this guy can shred with the best, however, we have stuck to our guns that less is more, and credit to him, he has not once complained about his lack of solo time.

 

A question to the arrangers/writers out there. Do you you normally have the song mapped out? (I do) And how willing are you to go in another direction if someone has a good idea. I really do this esp with the guitar player. He will often have stuff (esp connecting bits) that there is no way I would have thought of.

He came up with a transition in our song 'James Dean' that kills, and I couldn't have come or made it up in a million years. He even pointed out a vocal melody that I could follow...killer..and again, I wouldn't have thought of it let alone put it where it is in the song in a million years...

[WynnD]

My cover band just learned "Just my imagination, running away with me". And as I was thinking about that song, without a great arraignment, we wouldn't be discussing it at all. The lyrics are decent, but the chord structure is simple. The original's strings are just amazing as is the vocal phrasing. I can just see the song writer's face when hearing the final Temptation's mix. I'm sure they didn't expect it to sound that great. This really does point to the issues of writing and arraigning. (Look up Gary McFarland. Another writer, musician, arraigner that's gone.)

[WynnD]

My cover band just learned "Just my imagination, running away with me". And as I was thinking about that song, without a great arraignment, we wouldn't be discussing it at all. The lyrics are decent, but the chord structure is simple. The original's strings are just amazing as is the vocal phrasing. I can just see the song writer's face when hearing the final Temptation's mix. I'm sure they didn't expect it to sound that great. This really does point to the issues of writing and arraigning. (Look up Gary McFarland. Another writer, musician, arraigner that's gone.)

[TrickyBoy]

 

A question to the arrangers/writers out there. Do you you normally have the song mapped out? (I do) And how willing are you to go in another direction if someone has a good idea. I really do this esp with the guitar player. He will often have stuff (esp connecting bits) that there is no way I would have thought of.

 

 

I always go into practice with a mapped out arrangement and an idea of other parts, but I always listen to the ideas of others.

[Chicken Monkey]

In an original band, it can be really hard to say to the second guitarist, "Why don't you just not do anything for the first half of the song?", even though it would help the song a lot.

[Bodyguard2112]

In our project, that role would be... me...

 

I am the least talented musician, but I can spot brilliance when I hear it, and put it where it needs to be in the song. The other folks have come to trust my judgment with regards to this, so basically all arranging is done by me, and is usually done before the meeting on that song.

 

I'm not a dictator, I trust the musical talent of the participants, and I'll listen to suggestions.

 

So... as a musician with skill and craft in playing the instruments, I am second rate. As a person with the big picture and a clear vision and with a way to execute it... that's my craft.

 

Oh, and the CF in the header of this post... that's what usually happens when most groups of individuals try to move forward without a clear direction. A "custerfluck"...

[crossways]

 

In an original band, it can be really hard to say to the second guitarist, "Why don't you just not do anything for the first half of the song?", even though it would help the song a lot.

 

 

Exactly! I wish it wasn't so. It would be cool if more bands would consider arrangments of their songs to be as important as the riff/melody/chord prog.

 

I tend to think that bands who do more goo cover material kind of learn that a good arrangment can make a song.

 

Its not even a matter of the 2nd guitarist not playing, but what are they playing? are they being redundant, or are they adding something interesting? Even a three piece should consider the arrangment. As I go back through my defunct band's material I see problems with arrangments. As the primary songwriter I think I have some potential for quality songs. But the arrangments are no good. I think we used the excuse that we were a three piece to simply....well, play. Full on...all the time. I think I'll go back and rework them.

[stevie j]

IMO, this is the real reason why some bands make it and some don't.

 

Think of an orchestra, whole sections don't even touch their instruments for a whole piece. A band is just a small orchestra with different instruments on the most part. Not playing anything is just as important as playing a note, imagine a chef who uses every ingredient for every meal, it wouldn't be good.

 

If your bandmates can't take not filling every space, they aren't real musicians.

[tim_7string]

This is a great question. I think excellent band arrangements created collectively by the band are a lost art. I think of bands such as The Cars and Pink Floyd, where there is space allocated for each instrument.

 

I guess you have to work with what you have. Ideally, you would find the right musicians that can contribute creatively to the overall sound of the group. Unfortunately, most people don't seem to know what to put in a song to make it 'better'. It is definitely a special talent to be able to hear in one's head what could improve the presentation of a song.

 

I haven't been very lucky finding people who can do this for my own songs, so I usually just play all the instruments and record all the parts myself. An exception would be my cousin Dean, who is great at coming up with complimentary parts, interesting melodies and textures. I tried to get something going with different drummers and the parts they played seemed somewhat pedestrian. The bassists didn't really add much as far as creative licks. And other guitarists were more frustrating than anything. I would love to have a band full of musicians that could just create some amazing parts on their individual instruments, but sadly, I haven't found that.

 

My advice would be to try to have everyone listen to different bands, perhaps have them pick their favorite songs and analyze them to try to find musical space and dynamics and see why it makes the song kick ass...then try to do something similar. Light and shade.

[callous]

I remember hearing an interview with Tom Hamilton, Aerosmith's bassist, about the making of "Pump."

 

He called arrangements "the ditch digging" part of making an album. The gist is that cool riffs and beats are fun, while arrangements are hard work, but necessary.

[Polyphonoise]

And then there's the dynamic aspect. When are we loud/when are we quiet? Are we all loud/quiet at the same time? Nothing like having all but bass, minimal drums and soft but intense vocal in a bridge immediately following a pummelling chorus. What about a couple lines of everybody playing and holding whole notes after a couple of verses of 4/4? And pauses, especially live. The whole bag of arrangement tricks and techiniques can be rummaged through for every tune you do, both originals and covers. It's like getting new toys for Christmas.

[WynnD]

I love the song "The Letters" by King Crimson from the Islands album. It's about the best example of dynamics I've ever heard on a recording. It goes from a whisper to blowing you head off and back again. Don't even try listening to it in a car with the engine running. The soft parts will either disappear or the loud parts will blow your speakers. Probably not really, but there's got to be nearly 30+ db difference between the quiet and loud sections. That would have been recorded at a time when the really good equipment could manage around 60 db difference. Current DAWs easily manage 90+ db.

 

I also have always loved Sinfield's lyrics. This one is a classic.

[bish0p34]

I'm coming into the part of my being a guitarist/musician where I'm just not really inspired by many guitar players (I can count on one hand how many inspire me), but inspired by the song itself. I practice scales and licks less, and worry more about writing my own music. I realize that most of this will just be for my friends and myself. I usually record the bulk of the parts in a few hours as I write them, but spend the next week working on the arrangement and production of them (sometimes re-recording to make it fit or change smoothly).

 

I work mainly with one bass player, who's not the best guy I jam with...but he's the most creative bass player I've written with. He always looks to add to what I'm doing, not copy it. Luckily, if I want a "follow the guitar" bass line, I have to tell him because he likes to avoid the norm lol.

 

Afterwards we just listen and decide "there needs to be a stop here", "lets not bring the second guitar in till the 3rd pass thru", "the dynamic needs to be brought down here", or "this part is great, but we need something to break it up". We spend waaaaaay more time here than recording, but we want to make the foundation for a great song (have a hard time finding a singer to record with, and we're not too good), or a killer instrumental that speaks.

 

All that work is what makes a good song great!

[BATCAT]

 

So I guess my question to the forum is, when you folks that are in bands that write originals how much time is spent on arranging the song for your instrumentation? Do you simply let each member do his/her thing? Does the primary song writer of that song lay it out?

 

 

Generally, I'll spend quite a bit of time. Once the original idea is demo'ed it usually bounces around in my brain for weeks or months. Then I'll revosit it with the whole band. It's a pretty painstaking process. I have songs where I've spent a half-year on just the structure and arrangement.

[BATCAT]

 

And then there's the dynamic aspect. When are we loud/when are we quiet? Are we all loud/quiet at the same time?

 

 

Sometimes, with my band, I'll actually assign numbers to the dynamic level for different parts. (usually 1-5) So, i'll be like "Ok, the chorus is a 4, then drop to a 2 for the bridge." It helps with getting everyone on the same page.

[crossways]

 

Sometimes, with my band, I'll actually assign numbers to the dynamic level for different parts. (usually 1-5) So, i'll be like "Ok, the chorus is a 4, then drop to a 2 for the bridge." It helps with getting everyone on the same page.

 

 

funny...don't some musicians do the same thing but with those funny little words...forte, piano, mezzo forte, fortissimo..etc...

 

 

 

 

 

:poke:

 

 

 

sorry...couldn't resist being a bit of an ass before the year was out.

[BlueHeaven]

I think one of the hardest parts with writing and playing in original bands is to get members to NOT play. No one likes to sit on the side lines for a quarter of the song, but it may be needed.

[Ryst]

So I guess my question to the forum is, when you folks that are in bands that write originals how much time is spent on arranging the song for your instrumentation? Do you simply let each member do his/her thing? Does the primary song writer of that song lay it out? I think that is what I find boring about a lot of the MySpace hoard of original music. I can hear some good nuggets..a melody, or riff..but it is usually performed with this wall of instrumentation that is full on all the time.

 

This is one of the many reasons I'm a one man band. I've lost all patience with most musicians.

[BATCAT]

funny...don't some musicians do the same thing but with those funny little words...forte, piano, mezzo forte, fortissimo..etc... :poke: sorry...couldn't resist being a bit of an ass before the year was out.

 

It sounds a little pretentious to say "mezzo forte" around with a beer in your hand at band practice.

[crossways]

It sounds a little pretentious to say "mezzo forte" around with a beer in your hand at band practice.

 

HAHA!

 

"Hey Mike, on the bass score if you would try a bit of a poco ritard into the pizzicato section. Jim, if you would drop to the minuet section down to a mezzo piano following the sforzando, that'd be great. And Carl let's try a bit more legato during the tutti bridge portion, and if you would sir, pop open a MGD from within the minifridge!"

[BlueHeaven]

HAHA! "Hey Mike, on the bass score if you would try a bit of a poco ritard into the pizzicato section. Jim, if you would drop to the minuet section down to a mezzo piano following the sforzando, that'd be great. And Carl let's try a bit more legato during the tutti bridge portion, and if you would sir, pop open a MGD from within the minifridge!"

 

Well when you do translations to English it's not much different than simply saying play louder, softer or smoother

 

Forte translates to loud

Lagato translates to tied

Poco Ritard translates to Somewhat/Slowly slowing

 

Essentially all you are doing when saying the fancy musically correct words is giving musical direction in a different language

[crossways]

Well when you do translations to English it's not much different than simply saying play louder, softer or smoother Forte translates to loud Lagato translates to tied Poco Ritard translates to Somewhat/Slowly slowing Essentially all you are doing when saying the fancy musically correct words is giving musical direction in a different language

 

Not really interested in debating that fact. But it has always made me a little bit crazy that for the last 300 or so years we all (meaning musicians) have used a standard musical language. Then in the last 40 or so years we tend to want to change it. Maybe it is time to quit using antiquated foreign language when it may be simpler to just say it in english, but I guess I just like using the $.20 words. YMMV

[neverdunn]

It's an interesting question. I've been in one all original band and I can't think of one song that was brought in complete and played as it arrived. We were very sensitive to dynamics in a song and used "space" to create power within an arrangement. We used stops at times to create tension too. Typically the bass player and drummer laid a groove that the 2 guitarists could augment. It wasn't often that they played the same thing at the same time and often only one of the two would be playing at any given part of a song. When they did play together though, it hit hard.