My hat is off to all you young gigging bands!

[ChordGirl]

One thing about a ski crowd is that ,, these people dump serious money to ski. Its an expensive sport. They dont drink like the typical bar customer. how many 6 dollar beers do you think a guy who got up early drinks after the lifts stop turning..., spend the day on the slopes doing a physically intensive sport that they really dont do that much? Most of these people pretty well are physicall whopped by the end of the day. They either have a big drive home because they are a day tripper or they hang out , listen to the band a little ,, have a beer or two ,, go back to their room flopout on the bed , watch some tube and take a shower ,, then get some food ,, retire pretty early to get up and go ski again the next day.

The op said the bar was packed and they had run out of a lot of beers. Somebody bought everything else at $6 a pop. If not the imported skiers, it had to be the locals. :poke: Either way, they rang big. Even if the 480 capacity place only stocked 2 beers per person, or 1,000 beers, (that manager would be an idiot, btw), and sold most of it, the ring off of that alone was nearly 5k+.

 

Anyway, I thought you'd asked my perspective. There it was...

[modulusman]

The op said the bar was packed and they had run out of a lot of beers. Somebody bought everything else at $6 a pop. If not the imported skiers, it had to be the locals. :poke: Either way, they rang big. Even if the 480 capacity place only stocked 2 beers per person, or 1,000 beers, (that manager would be an idiot, btw), and sold most of it, the ring off of that alone was nearly 5k+. Anyway, I thought you'd asked my perspective. There it was...

 

Thanks for your thoughts from a bar managers perspective.

[rhat]

The op said the bar was packed and they had run out of a lot of beers. Somebody bought everything else at $6 a pop. If not the imported skiers, it had to be the locals. :poke: Either way, they rang big. Even if the 480 capacity place only stocked 2 beers per person, or 1,000 beers, (that manager would be an idiot, btw), and sold most of it, the ring off of that alone was nearly 5k+. Anyway, I thought you'd asked my perspective. There it was...

 

 

Thanks for posting becky ,, ever think that a bar that has a end of the season rolling up might understock the cheap stuff to move out higher priced beer? the great white whale gets harpooned by thunderstorms every spring with a ski area ,,and the place dies , till golf season or the next winter. Its not like a regular club or bar ,, if the lifts are not turning the cash is burning.

 

I know you know the bar biz inside and out ,, but a bar with a seasonal shut down date is a differnt animal. the old sorry ,,, we are out of da ta da can be a planned thing. Then the employees drink up all the well juice at the employee shut down party. For sure they make money ,, if they dont they go out of business and alot of them do . Stowe is huge ,, i doubt you will see them go under any time soon.

[rhat]

The op said the bar was packed and they had run out of a lot of beers. Somebody bought everything else at $6 a pop. If not the imported skiers, it had to be the locals. :poke: Either way, they rang big. Even if the 480 capacity place only stocked 2 beers per person, or 1,000 beers, (that manager would be an idiot, btw), and sold most of it, the ring off of that alone was nearly 5k+. Anyway, I thought you'd asked my perspective. There it was...

 

 

Thanks for posting becky ,, ever think that a bar that has a end of the season rolling up might understock the cheap stuff to move out higher priced beer? the great white whale gets harpooned by thunderstorms every spring with a ski area ,,and the place dies , till golf season or the next winter. Its not like a regular club or bar ,, if the lifts are not turning the cash is burning.

 

I know you know the bar biz inside and out ,, but a bar with a seasonal shut down date is a differnt animal. the old sorry ,,, we are out of da ta da can be a planned thing. Then the employees drink up all the well juice at the employee shut down party. For sure they make money ,, if they dont they go out of business and alot of them do . Stowe is huge ,, i doubt you will see them go under any time soon.

[MartinC]

I can't understand how there's even an argument. 4800. at the door and the band gets 750.? It seems a freakin hose job of the first order. If the op is happy, so be it. But I think if there are at least two clubs in town, a band manager would at least double the band income. I've never in thirty years played in a band that could regularly draw anywhere near 480 people a gig, and I've also not played music for that little money in many years. Shows how different things can be in different places I guess.

[modulusman]

Where I live If I was consistantly drawing 300+ I would make a deal to play for the door. Even at $5.00 a head that would be double what the OP is charging. Bar owners would not have a problem with it because they would have 300 drinkers in the bar which should make for a good till. If where the OP is playing large crowds are the norm because people like the bar then maybe that wouldn't be an option.

[rhat]

 

Where I live If I was consistantly drawing 300+ I would make a deal to play for the door. Even at $5.00 a head that would be double what the OP is charging. Bar owners would not have a problem with it because they would have 300 drinkers in the bar which should make for a good till. If where the OP is playing large crowds are the norm because people like the bar then maybe that wouldn't be an option.

 

 

Mod ,, I think one of the things you dont understand is that this place isnt a typical night club bar. The people that go there pay big bucks to ski. it would be totally offensive to have the resort put a cover on the door. The cost of this sport has gone up so much over the years that its what I call a high roller sport. You cant treat these people like cattle at a in city meat market bar. While they do have boat loads of money flowing through , they also are in a biz where the weather can kill them. its a risky business ,, when they are making money they make it fast ,, when they are losing money they lose it faster. To try to apply the night club rules to the place just isnt a good fit in my mind. While we can debate that the band should get more ,, they are not. working at a ski are is what you call a glamor job for people ,, I used to be able to get doctors to teach skiing for pretty well nothing just to be on the ski school. I could get volunteers to do the national ski patrol deal for a season pass for their family. Getting a band cheaper than what a big night club is pretty easy too ,, especially when the place it way out in the boonies and the band is local. 30 miles is nothing when you are up where they are. The truth is , if those guys dont play the gig ,, the resort will get someone who will. take a youg band full of skiers.. lay a pass on them ,, feed them and put them up in a clapped out condo and you can pretty well name the price. the only people that really make real good money at places like that are the core dept heads and the guys that the area absolutly needs to stay open. key maintence, groomers, full time mgmt staff, etc. the band are not those kind of people.

 

Here are some rates.

 

http://www.stowe.com/tickets/lift_tickets/

 

 

How would you feel if you had a goon at the door asking for a cover charge after you just tuned up the whole family at these rates. its like asking a guy who just chartered the jet to pay for the newpaper.

[modulusman]

Rhat go back and read post #14. Do you see the part where the OP says the cover charge is $10.00. The Ski resorts where I live have bars that are seperate businesses from the actual ski hill. They charge cover and could care less if Joe skier likes it or not.

[rhat]

 

Rhat go back and read post #14. Do you see the part where the OP says the cover charge is $10.00. The Ski resorts where I live have bars that are seperate businesses from the actual ski hill. They charge cover and could care less if Joe skier likes it or not.

 

 

 

Ok so they paid a cover.. its a cheap shot in my opinon.. but then they have a captive crowd. All of my experience has been with the stuff at the area ,, We ran the bar , the ski shop, the ski school , the ski patrol and even shoveled walks ....and un plugged toilets. For the full time dept guys no job was out of our classification ,,, {censored} I have even ran lifts and dug ditches. The bars in town ,, are a differnt deal. thanks for pointing that out. down here there are no cover charges ,, cept maybe when guitar shorty plays a show. he is a local guy from the valley. He plays the big night club now and then.

 

If i seem like i am in more than my normal high rev ,, I have been on moose doeses of predlisone to jack up my blood platlets. been on the taper which is good ,, things are lookin great as far as treatment and I have fingers of steel now instead of gout paws. My doc says he can fix this {censored} ,, its been cronic for a few years ,, and I finally hit the wall ,, and had to go on the steroids. No big deal it aint gonna kill me ,, but its like drinking 60 cups of coffee ,, and revs the hell out of you with alot of mood swings. I feel like a teenager though ,,,, they gave that crap to my kids old 22 pound cat ,, before he hung on the couch and spread out like a 14 inch pizza ,, on the roids,, he could jump form the floor to the top of the fridge... his name is rocky lol I got to play ,, tonight and sunday ,,, damb its good to not have my hands feel like someone hit them with a hammer ,,, and no ouchy finger tuesday.. and thats the rest of the story lol

[ErikHoppy]

What band are you? I'm in VT.

[humancertainty]

In a situation like that, you should have a back end clause in your guarantee with the bar owner. Please don't misunderstand. I think it's great that you're so happy with your situation.

I only bring this up because when the band I tour with most often gets a $750 guarantee, we have a back end clause where we get 70% of the door after the venue's expenses. If we had three hundred people at a show like that, we would more than double our guarantee. At some venues, we would more than triple it. And that is without us bringing a P.A. and playing no more than 60 minutes. That is also with at least two support bands getting paid.

[wheresgrant3]

First rules of negotiation with club owners:

 

If the band 'owns the draw' the band names the price.

If the club 'owns the draw'... then the band is pretty powerless to negotiate.

 

I read many times on this board that they played a night and the venue was packed to the gills... however the remainder of the month they are playing to basically friends and family. If the band has a reputation of a powerful draw then they are in a postion to ask for more upfront guarantee.

 

A few years ago we raised our prices with some local rooms. A popular venue refused the gaurantee saying "we'll never pay any band that much money regardless how good they are". They also added that every weekend night was packed regardless if we played or not. We understood, and respectedly declined to book the next year out. We were very professional about it... just left it as "we completely understand, no hard feelings, but we can commit to future dates at your room at that price, we must make room for other venues". We also added that if things changed in the future yo give us a call, we'd happily rebook. That was in Nov. In January we got a call back "to work things out". Again the gaurantee wasn't met so again we declined. In April they called us again for booking in the fall, again we declined. Finally in July they gave in and offered our full gaurantee, and we picked up two dates in the fall. We left the ball in their court.

[tim_7string]

 

First rules of negotiation with club owners: If the band 'owns the draw' the band names the price. If the club 'owns the draw'... then the band is pretty powerless to negotiate. I read many times on this board that they played a night and the venue was packed to the gills... however the remainder of the month they are playing to basically friends and family. If the band has a reputation of a powerful draw then they are in a postion to ask for more upfront guarantee. A few years ago we raised our prices with some local rooms. A popular venue refused the gaurantee saying "we'll never pay any band that much money regardless how good they are". They also added that every weekend night was packed regardless if we played or not. We understood, and respectedly declined to book the next year out. We were very professional about it... just left it as "we completely understand, no hard feelings, but we can commit to future dates at your room at that price, we must make room for other venues". We also added that if things changed in the future yo give us a call, we'd happily rebook. That was in Nov. In January we got a call back "to work things out". Again the gaurantee wasn't met so again we declined. In April they called us again for booking in the fall, again we declined. Finally in July they gave in and offered our full gaurantee, and we picked up two dates in the fall. We left the ball in their court.

 

 

Ha, that reminds me of my first gig with my band last year. I was impressed with the turnout at our gig, especially since no one had heard of us before. From what people were telling us throughout the night, they heard we were good and people came from other bars to hears us.

 

When it was time to get paid, I noted that it was a good-sized crowd, thinking nothing of it, just small talk. The bar owner was a frickin' bitch and responded, "Huh! It's always packed in here whenever there is a band at the casino in town, whether I have a band here or not." (Staind happened to be playing at the casino that night)

 

I know from experience that this was complete bull{censored}. I was in town before when a well-known band was playing at the casino and happened to go into her establishment (this was a year and a half before). There was a DJ and the bar was maybe 20-25% full, with more gradually leaving throughout the night. When we played there, the place was packed and stayed packed throughout the night. So much for that theory.

 

Funnily enough, people have been asking if we're going to play there again and the bar owner asked us too, hoping we would. It's never going to happen, due to how she treated us from the time we arrived (threatened not to pay us the second night if she didn't like the way we sounded) until we got our stuff the next day (she hated the idea of "getting up" at noon, for cryin' out loud, so we could get our stuff...meanwhile, we had a 5.5 hour drive ahead of us that Sunday).

 

Locally, I basically did the bar owner a favor three weeks ago. He didn't have a band for that weekend and I was able to throw something together. Both nights there were a lot of people, but especially Saturday night. He paid us at a discounted price because at the time we were a risk. Would anyone show up? Even I wasn't sure.

 

Now that it's been established that yes, we can draw and draw well, we will not be playing for that discounted price in the future. He's a great guy, but I'm no dummy, nor was I just born yesterday. He made a lot of money off us on both nights and he'll probably make even more next time.

 

As for the OP, yeah, I'd try to ask for a bit of a raise, make it a cool $1000 if possible. If you're packing them in every time, that $250 will not be missed by the bar, if he's making thousands upon thousands each night, but it will definitely be missed by you guys.

[dogtownmax]

 

I don't post all that often but after reading about all you folks out there struggling with {censored}ty bar owners,contracts,multiple bands on the same bill, no pay,ect,ect,ect. I feel very lucky to play where I do with the guys that I do. We play the same old cover tunes as you guys. ... P.S. Please forgive the terrible grammer and spelling. I aint got no Phd!

 

 

hey, dont worry about us, but, we dont play the "same old cover tunes", and thats what makes it worth the extra effort.

 

when you see the words you wrote being literally worn on peoples clothing, thats worth something all by itself.

[tim_7string]

Additional note: I forgot to mention that when I called the bar owner to confirm that gig, she was completely unaware of it. My fiancee's sister was supposed to help set it up because she lives in that town, but she dropped the ball and never did anything. However, the bar owner was desperate for entertainment because the DJ she usually uses wouldn't be back in time and there would have been nothing going on at all at her bar following the Staind concert at the casino a few miles away. Apparently, the DJ was out of state, so she really wanted us to play there (I'm assuming so people would stick around, right?).

 

Funny how after we helped each other out, all of a sudden she pulls out the "I don't need YOU" and "I did YOU a favor" and "I did it for HER" (my fiancee) b.s., isn't it? Some people...

[fuel truck]

 

What band are you? I'm in VT.

 

 

Erik, We are One Night Stand. Our bass player is the head of the math dept. at Johnson State. You may have run into him, Dr Aubuchon. Small World Eh?

[modulusman]

Erik, We are One Night Stand. Our bass player is the head of the math dept. at Johnson State. You may have run into him, Dr Aubuchon. Small World Eh?

 

Obviously not the head of business math. FWIW my band played a bar job for the door last night. Cover was $5.00 and we made $1310.00 split 4 ways.

[BlueStrat]

Obviously not the head of business math. FWIW my band played a bar job for the door last night. Cover was $5.00 and we made $1310.00 split 4 ways.

 

 

Yeah, that 750 sounds awfully light. We used to go play the Cascad Tavern in Vancouver, WA with a seating capacity of about 60 people and make over $900 at the door. Add in CD and T shirt sales and we'd come away with 11 or 12 hundred dollars.

[fuel truck]

Obviously not the head of business math. FWIW my band played a bar job for the door last night. Cover was $5.00 and we made $1310.00 split 4 ways.

 

Ever do any sidework managing bands? Specificaly contracts & Pay rate? If you WANT to than get your ass on a plane and get up here. If you'll work as hard in the field as you are in this thread, I should be making 5 grand a gig in no time!!

[ChordGirl]

Thanks for your thoughts from a bar managers perspective.

 

Guess it doesn't matter much, though.

[wades_keys]

Ever do any sidework managing bands? Specificaly contracts & Pay rate? If you WANT to than get your ass on a plane and get up here. If you'll work as hard in the field as you are in this thread, I should be making 5 grand a gig in no time!!

 

 

That left a mark.

[modulusman]

Ever do any sidework managing bands? Specificaly contracts & Pay rate? If you WANT to than get your ass on a plane and get up here. If you'll work as hard in the field as you are in this thread, I should be making 5 grand a gig in no time!!

Maybe when i retire from playing. Seriously most the people posting in this thread think you guys are being under paid.

[modulusman]

That left a mark.

 

Wade, If you ever get a PA you might be able to make some real money too.

[ChordGirl]

Thanks for posting becky ,, ever think that a bar that has a end of the season rolling up might understock the cheap stuff to move out higher priced beer? the great white whale gets harpooned by thunderstorms every spring with a ski area ,,and the place dies , till golf season or the next winter. Its not like a regular club or bar ,, if the lifts are not turning the cash is burning. I know you know the bar biz inside and out ,, but a bar with a seasonal shut down date is a differnt animal. the old sorry ,,, we are out of da ta da can be a planned thing. Then the employees drink up all the well juice at the employee shut down party. For sure they make money ,, if they dont they go out of business and alot of them do . Stowe is huge ,, i doubt you will see them go under any time soon.

 

Ya know, they could've run out of beer the first time because they were understocked. Even understocked, they should've had 1000 beers on the premises.

 

But the next time, they knew about the expected draw. It shouldn't happen again, assuming it was the first time, which we don't know. :poke: I wasn't saying they rang 5 grand, because that would just be beer in my example. It tends to be closer to 50% beer, 50% mixed drinks/shots, which would put that ring at closer to 10k. (A very low estimate coming from an understocked bar.) Hell, going into a 48 capacity bar with our closed patio, we start with 16 cases cold domestics, and another 5 cases of cold imports plus 5-7 kegs going into the weekend. Then we have another 35 or so cases in storage to be pulled out when necessary. That right there is 1000+ beers. Our place is 1/10 the capacity when we stock that, which even a lightly stocked 480 capacity bar should have on hand.

 

I was already being very generous in my math by giving the owner half the door. Don't tell me about seasonal business, either. I work at a place that goes from 48 capacity to 200 capacity when the patio opens. Guess what, we stock it differently when it's in season.

 

Oh, and around here, distributors will take back full unopened cases. That's how they do it with the bar downtown that is literally only open on home Cardinals game days. They ring 25k or so every time, they shut the friggin' doors until the next game. Prime real estate downtown.

 

 

I'm just saying that if this lodge bar owner is keeping his business open on a shoe string and can't pay these guys what they're worth because he needs that extra $750, then he sucks and will be going out of business shortly anyway. This band is definitely a cash cow for him. Like Grant said, they should be naming the price. I only doubled it so it's still obvious to the owner that he's still making a lot and this band is profitable to him.

 

That's all I'm going to say on the matter. :poke:

[ChordGirl]

Fuel, the only reason we're all commenting (perhaps, in my opinion anyway) on this is that you're telling us a success story (and it sounds great!), and trying to be a good example for the younger bands. We're trying to let the younger bands know that $750 is not enough pay a band drawing 300-480 people at $10 a pop.

 

I don't think anyone is trying to be a dick to you, it's just the truth. Thumbs up for everything else in your original post.