Members rhat Posted March 7, 2010 Members Share Posted March 7, 2010 Ya know, they could've run out of beer the first time because they were understocked. Even understocked, they should've had 1000 beers on the premises. But the next time, they knew about the expected draw. It shouldn't happen again, assuming it was the first time, which we don't know. :poke: I wasn't saying they rang 5 grand, because that would just be beer in my example. It tends to be closer to 50% beer, 50% mixed drinks/shots, which would put that ring at closer to 10k. (A very low estimate coming from an understocked bar.) Hell, going into a 48 capacity bar with our closed patio, we start with 16 cases cold domestics, and another 5 cases of cold imports plus 5-7 kegs going into the weekend. Then we have another 35 or so cases in storage to be pulled out when necessary. That right there is 1000+ beers. Our place is 1/10 the capacity when we stock that, which even a lightly stocked 480 capacity bar should have on hand. I was already being very generous in my math by giving the owner half the door. Don't tell me about seasonal business, either. I work at a place that goes from 48 capacity to 200 capacity when the patio opens. Guess what, we stock it differently when it's in season. Oh, and around here, distributors will take back full unopened cases. That's how they do it with the bar downtown that is literally only open on home Cardinals game days. They ring 25k or so every time, they shut the friggin' doors until the next game. Prime real estate downtown. I'm just saying that if this lodge bar owner is keeping his business open on a shoe string and can't pay these guys what they're worth because he needs that extra $750, then he sucks and will be going out of business shortly anyway. This band is definitely a cash cow for him. Like Grant said, they should be naming the price. I only doubled it so it's still obvious to the owner that he's still making a lot and this band is profitable to him. That's all I'm going to say on the matter. :poke: Becky ,, the thing with a ski area is that ,,, you really cant predict things. Presidents day is a huge day ,,,but you also have the window sill effect. Thats where the skiing is great ,,, but the day tripper is looking at 50 degrees and zero snow at home ,which is a hundred miles away, and they stay home. You can get too much snow and they stay home.. You can get slammed when you least expect it. Get a big crowd and have it start raining on them.. It drives people indoors and the bar goes nuts. The closer to the end of the season you get the harder it is to predict what you need. i have sold out every pair of reasonable priced goggle in the shop in just a few hours during a snowstorm during christmas. I hear what you are saying ...for sure they could pay the band more ,, but they dont. what ya gonna do? not play? its an option , but not one every band is going to take. There are lots of bands.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChordGirl Posted March 7, 2010 Members Share Posted March 7, 2010 In an unpredictable business, you must be prepared for when the business does come, or you won't be in business long. That's it, Tim. My opinion. You have yours. Works for me. You're not going to change my mind on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members orangesix Posted March 7, 2010 Members Share Posted March 7, 2010 I'd much rather get paid $0 and play my own music, than play the crap people like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChordGirl Posted March 7, 2010 Members Share Posted March 7, 2010 I'd much rather get paid $0 and play my own music, than play the crap people like.I put a free show every other afternoon on the end of my couch. My cat seems to like it. But she's still not willing to pay me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rhat Posted March 7, 2010 Members Share Posted March 7, 2010 In an unpredictable business, you must be prepared for when the business does come, or you won't be in business long. That's it, Tim. My opinion. You have yours. Works for me. You're not going to change my mind on this one. Thats cool... Just trying to lay down a little perspective on a biz model that I dont think alot of people quite understand. even the beer dist... has to pump up his inventory to cater to a place like stowe. No one wants to get caught holding the bag. with us in the area ski shop we had to put all our orders in for gear way ahead of time ,,, no real way to restock. You bought for the season. sell too cheap and you were out of gear when you needed somthing to sell and left profit on the table.. ,, hold out for a higher dollar and you had stuff left over for next season and it screwed you because you had min stocking orders. When i was the sales mgr in the shop we doubled the sales every year i ran it. When i quit the guy that replaced me sold half of what I sold and got nailed with left over stock. nutzo biz ,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fjs1229 Posted March 7, 2010 Members Share Posted March 7, 2010 Erik, We are One Night Stand. Our bass player is the head of the math dept. at Johnson State. You may have run into him, Dr Aubuchon. Small World Eh? VERY small world. Im finishing up my last year at good ol' JSC right now. Never took a class with Aubuchon, but I've seen him around the tiny campus. $750 a night isn't bad around this area. My band plays at the bar right in downtown johnson and we get $100 for the band, but we'll be negotiating that this time around. We're a four piece band... Another place we play regularly in morrisville) gives us $50 a head, and we bring out WAY less people there (it's more or a restaurant than an actual bar) Glad to hear you guys are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rorylawford Posted March 7, 2010 Members Share Posted March 7, 2010 I'd much rather get paid $0 and play my own music, than play the crap people like. Dude, I would think that your own music IS something at least SOME people like :poke: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Blackbird 13 Posted March 7, 2010 Members Share Posted March 7, 2010 I'd much rather get paid $0 and play my own music, than play the crap people like.I'd much rather continue to pay rent, my car insurance, my cell phone bill, eat a little bit, and have internet. It seems like a fair trade to me! On top of that.. I'd suggest that cover bands who throw in one or two originals (and eventually make and sell CDs of originals) will have a wider audience than most bands that play exclusively originals... but if you're happy doing what you're doing, more power to you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wheresgrant3 Posted March 7, 2010 Members Share Posted March 7, 2010 Again... I relate to the OP... ski resorts are the worst paying gigs. When we're approached we usually bid high... They usually want to pay a band $600-1000... we make more than $1600+ for most nightclub gigs. I'm not sure which VT resort town the OP may be playing in but there are some pretty nortorious rooms in some. Killington has the Pickle Barrel, where they almost books exclusively out of state agency bands from as far away as Philly and Boston. Even then the pay isn't great (when you factor in the miles driven). They'll usually throw in meal tickets and a condo or a few rooms... maybe $1000-1500 per night. Again this is for bands with agency representation that are driveing 8-16 hrs round trip. These bands are heavily marketed and come with high expectations. A local, independent cover band may have to deal with some serious competition in their backyard. I agree the OP could raise their prices a bit, but honestly, I can't predict because I'm not sure what 'ceiling' would be for asking in pay. Again, unless this band 'owns their draw" (the same crowd follows them from bar to bar) they may be in a position to either "take it or leave it". This is where a manager or agent could be a huge asset to deal with the negotiation part. A bar owner is not going to take a band seriously (draw or no draw) on upping or even doubling their pay if it's the guitar player or drummer asking (covered in sweat) after the set. It's rare for me to see any band in the Northeast with the members on stage, negotiate huge pay raises, without some assistance of someone who is not on that stage with them. Bar owners are a tough breed to deal with (as I'm sure they are everywhere)... the only way we were able to break that $1000 mark was to have a seperate manager offstage pointing out the numbers to the owner while the show was going on in the background. Without someone offstage pointing out the value of the band the owner will use any point to distract the effort of raising pay ("we don't pay bands that much", "this place is packed every night", "every band we book does decent business"...etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fuel truck Posted March 7, 2010 Author Members Share Posted March 7, 2010 VERY small world. Im finishing up my last year at good ol' JSC right now. Never took a class with Aubuchon, but I've seen him around the tiny campus. $750 a night isn't bad around this area. My band plays at the bar right in downtown johnson and we get $100 for the band, but we'll be negotiating that this time around. We're a four piece band... Another place we play regularly in morrisville) gives us $50 a head, and we bring out WAY less people there (it's more or a restaurant than an actual bar)Glad to hear you guys are Is that the HUB in johnson or the Long trail?Morrisville must be Malarky's? All three are fun places.What do you guys call yourselves? We are doing the Johnson Fire Dept. Dance this saturday the 13thWe'll be at the Hyde Park VFW. They are selling 300 tickets in advance and will have 180 available at the door. They sell out every time we play for them. This gig we do for a grand. We bring our lights, PA, and our own Soundman. If you are around, try to stop in. Maybe you could post here after to give everyone an Idea if we should be getting paid more or not? I'd be interested on another Musicians Opinion!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wheresgrant3 Posted March 7, 2010 Members Share Posted March 7, 2010 Fuel Truck... I'm guessing (again this is a guess... and you don't have to answer) that the ski resort you are referring too is in or around Smuggler's Notch... which again leads me to believe that in the Winter's, during ski season the place is packed... in the summer, maybe not so much. If your next gig is a VFW, then I'm guessing right on the 'venue' part. I don't know all that much about the Northern VT economy, but one thing is pretty certain, it's driven by one thing... and that's snow, snowmobiling and skiing. (I've been to Mt Mansfield in the summer... it's a ghost town)I can understand how you are discussing the numbers (as you have) and seemed to be getting underpaid (as most on this thread estimate). They don't really understand your market... only you can determine that. It is a tricky tightrope you walk... again probably not alot of bands to compete against, however not alot of venues to choose from either. Tread carefully on the pay part. Be firm, but try to sell the value of your band and how much you are worth doing the winter months. Some gave some ideas on sharing some of the door... might be a good place to start. For the record... I play in a cover band in lower NY state... we play as far north as Plattsburgh, as far east as Boston and range in pay for nightclub gigs $1600+ depending on whether an agent is involved or how far we must travel. All band members are between 35-43... we started in a market that wouldn't pay bands more than $600-700. And well, we've moved the needle well beyond that. As I said in the previous thread... we still don't make that much for playing ski resort gigs. They are trying to make all their money in 3-5 months. Even with local beer and radio sponsorships there's not much room with a venue that may be closed for 7-8 months a year. Some video from our last ski gig... and we provided all sound and lights. Hunter Mtn 50th Anniversary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rhat Posted March 7, 2010 Members Share Posted March 7, 2010 Again... I relate to the OP... ski resorts are the worst paying gigs. When we're approached we usually bid high... They usually want to pay a band $600-1000... we make more than $1600+ for most nightclub gigs. I'm not sure which VT resort town the OP may be playing in but there are some pretty nortorious rooms in some. Killington has the Pickle Barrel, where they almost books exclusively out of state agency bands from as far away as Philly and Boston. Even then the pay isn't great (when you factor in the miles driven). They'll usually throw in meal tickets and a condo or a few rooms... maybe $1000-1500 per night. Again this is for bands with agency representation that are driveing 8-16 hrs round trip. These bands are heavily marketed and come with high expectations. A local, independent cover band may have to deal with some serious competition in their backyard. I agree the OP could raise their prices a bit, but honestly, I can't predict because I'm not sure what 'ceiling' would be for asking in pay. Again, unless this band 'owns their draw" (the same crowd follows them from bar to bar) they may be in a position to either "take it or leave it". This is where a manager or agent could be a huge asset to deal with the negotiation part. A bar owner is not going to take a band seriously (draw or no draw) on upping or even doubling their pay if it's the guitar player or drummer asking (covered in sweat) after the set. It's rare for me to see any band in the Northeast with the members on stage, negotiate huge pay raises, without some assistance of someone who is not on that stage with them. Bar owners are a tough breed to deal with (as I'm sure they are everywhere)... the only way we were able to break that $1000 mark was to have a seperate manager offstage pointing out the numbers to the owner while the show was going on in the background. Without someone offstage pointing out the value of the band the owner will use any point to distract the effort of raising pay ("we don't pay bands that much", "this place is packed every night", "every band we book does decent business"...etc). Its because its not the normal bar/ club model. they are an animal thats pretty unique. draggin good money out of them , no matter what your job is can be tough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChordGirl Posted March 7, 2010 Members Share Posted March 7, 2010 Thats cool... Just trying to lay down a little perspective on a biz model that I dont think alot of people quite understand. even the beer dist... has to pump up his inventory to cater to a place like stowe. No one wants to get caught holding the bag. with us in the area ski shop we had to put all our orders in for gear way ahead of time ,,, no real way to restock. You bought for the season. sell too cheap and you were out of gear when you needed somthing to sell and left profit on the table.. ,, hold out for a higher dollar and you had stuff left over for next season and it screwed you because you had min stocking orders. When i was the sales mgr in the shop we doubled the sales every year i ran it. When i quit the guy that replaced me sold half of what I sold and got nailed with left over stock. nutzo biz ,,,I just looked up ski-season for the northeast. It claims the average length is 5 to 6 months. Beer is a perishable. It has to be delivered more frequently than that, lest the skiers drink stale Bud Light at $6 a pop. That is simply not the American way! :poke: This is much more of a stock as you go kind of business. A Bud Light is old after 4 months. I doubt they only order beer 3 times a year. You are dealing with perishables. Normally, you only have to prepare out for a couple of weeks out on most of your supplies. Maybe beer distributors don't come even once a week out there. (some places you get the same beer truck 2 or more times a week--high volume, pricey real estate with little storage space.) Maybe, can't imagine it to be true though, they only deliver once a month out there. You still would only have to prepare for one month at a time. If they serve food, food cannot be ordered very far in advance at all, unless it's dry or canned. Liquor could be ordered well in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fuel truck Posted March 7, 2010 Author Members Share Posted March 7, 2010 Fuel Truck... I'm guessing (again this is a guess... and you don't have to answer) that the ski resort you are referring too is in or around Smuggler's Notch... which again leads me to believe that in the Winter's, during ski season the place is packed... in the summer, maybe not so much. If your next gig is a VFW, then I'm guessing right on the 'venue' part. I don't know all that much about the Northern VT economy, but one thing is pretty certain, it's driven by one thing... and that's snow, snowmobiling and skiing. (I've been to Mt Mansfield in the summer... it's a ghost town)I can understand how you are discussing the numbers (as you have) and seemed to be getting underpaid (as most on this thread estimate). They don't really understand your market... only you can determine that. It is a tricky tightrope you walk... again probably not alot of bands to compete against, however not alot of venues to choose from either. Tread carefully on the pay part. Be firm, but try to sell the value of your band and how much you are worth doing the winter months. Some gave some ideas on sharing some of the door... might be a good place to start. For the record... I play in a cover band in lower NY state... we play as far north as Plattsburgh, as far east as Boston and range in pay for nightclub gigs $1600+ depending on whether an agent is involved or how far we must travel. All band members are between 35-43... we started in a market that wouldn't pay bands more than $600-700. And well, we've moved the needle well beyond that. As I said in the previous thread... we still don't make that much for playing ski resort gigs. They are trying to make all their money in 3-5 months. Even with local beer and radio sponsorships there's not much room with a venue that may be closed for 7-8 months a year. Some video from our last ski gig... and we provided all sound and lights. Hunter Mtn 50th Anniversary Other side of the Mountain. we were in Stowe. The Bar is it's own entity, not part of the resort although Ski dollars are it's life blood. The gig I was talking about was in the middle of October. Maybe thats why they were running out of all the popular beer as ChordGirl suggested. The only reason we are at the VFW for the next show is that it's the largest hall for rent in the county. Not much around here as far as large clubs go. Really though I'm not sure how much over the 480 number we could draw. I feel very lucky to have so many friends willing to pay to party with us. We ain't nothing special, really. We just really put alot into crowd interaction. We have a couple of originals but no one is knocking down the door with a record contract. We do have a great following though and The gigs that we do farther from home know it. If the club holds 100 max and there are 50-60 people with band t-shirts on I guess there is no denying it. I guess it's time for the fellas and I to sit down and take a hard look at this. Thanks, everyone for the support! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rhat Posted March 7, 2010 Members Share Posted March 7, 2010 I just looked up ski-season for the northeast. It claims the average length is 5 to 6 months. Beer is a perishable. It has to be delivered more frequently than that, lest the skiers drink stale Bud Light at $6 a pop. That is simply not the American way! :poke: This is much more of a stock as you go kind of business. A Bud Light is old after 4 months. I doubt they only order beer 3 times a year. You are dealing with perishables. Normally, you only have to prepare out for a couple of weeks out on most of your supplies. Maybe beer distributors don't come even once a week out there. (some places you get the same beer truck 2 or more times a week--high volume, pricey real estate with little storage space.) Maybe, can't imagine it to be true though, they only deliver once a month out there. You still would only have to prepare for one month at a time. If they serve food, food cannot be ordered very far in advance at all, unless it's dry or canned. Liquor could be ordered well in advance. well becky ,,,i aint no beer salesman ,, but I do know that a thunderstorm and eat an inch an hour of snow base. you can take a pretty healthy ski area and the weather can turn the place brown and into mud is a very short time. everything in that biz is a bit fickled.. Make too much snow and you just pissed away hundreds of thousands of dollars .. make not enough and your bottom like bleeds like a stuck hog. you cant control the weather. yes snow is the most inportant inventory there is at an area. There is just so many things that effect these places that the general public doesnt understand. A 5 or 6 month season seems reasonable for that area,, but i bet you didnt know they lose money early and late in the season ,,, The ideal season would be open up the 15th of dec,, and shut right after spring break . nail christmas , and presidents day and MLK day with great snow and weather an you are gold. those are the peak profit times. The only reason they open early and close late is due to season pass sales. thats all cash up front and is the start up money for every season. The meat and tators for a close to the city area is HS ski clubs and field trips... thats also up front money. As long as the kids get their punch card dates all punched its cool. i have sweated out a number of seasons with the owner I worked for ,, including running totally without insurance because he was going through a nasty divorce. the only people you cant dick around in that biz is the electric company ,, they provide the power that makes snow. You can dribble money in to everyone else and get away with it. that power company is their life blood. They get paid period or you wont have a ski area. The beer and the band are like grains of sand in the in south texas ,,, ,,,,, we got a whole state full of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rhat Posted March 7, 2010 Members Share Posted March 7, 2010 Other side of the Mountain. we were in Stowe. The Bar is it's own entity, not part of the resort although Ski dollars are it's life blood. The gig I was talking about was in the middle of October. Maybe thats why they were running out of all the popular beer as ChordGirl suggested. The only reason we are at the VFW for the next show is that it's the largest hall for rent in the county. Not much around here as far as large clubs go. Really though I'm not sure how much over the 480 number we could draw. I feel very lucky to have so many friends willing to pay to party with us. We ain't nothing special, really. We just really put alot into crowd interaction. We have a couple of originals but no one is knocking down the door with a record contract. We do have a great following though and The gigs that we do farther from home know it. If the club holds 100 max and there are 50-60 people with band t-shirts on I guess there is no denying it. I guess it's time for the fellas and I to sit down and take a hard look at this. Thanks, everyone for the support! That is a lean time for an area... all the money is going to make snow...they have their eyes on the thanksgiving weekend and building base for christmas to new years. No snow and the whole town is in suffer mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChordGirl Posted March 7, 2010 Members Share Posted March 7, 2010 That's business, Tim. Risk and reward. No one is thinking about the bands in all this. The band business is not meant for profit, just hours of outside dedication both perfecting their show, and promoting it 'off the clock,' so to speak. But everyone else has to get theirs. Why not turn it into a charity gig, because these places are so unstable business-wise? Poor club owner!!! He only gets half the door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rhat Posted March 7, 2010 Members Share Posted March 7, 2010 That's business, Tim. Risk and reward. No one is thinking about the bands in all this. The band business is not meant for profit, just hours of outside dedication both perfecting their show, and promoting it 'off the clock,' so to speak. But everyone else has to get theirs. Why not turn it into a charity gig, because these places are so unstable business-wise? Poor club owner!!! He only gets half the door. Nope....sometime you are the windshield and somtimes you are the bug. bars dont exist to feed bands. Never knew a bar owner thats reason to be in business was so a band could make money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tim_7string Posted March 7, 2010 Members Share Posted March 7, 2010 Nope....sometime you are the windshield and somtimes you are the bug. bars dont exist to feed bands. Never knew a bar owner thats reason to be in business was so a band could make money. I think the point that is being made is that we, as musicians, should be thinking about bands in all this, since the bar owners obviously aren't doing that. This is a musician forum, after all. We need to reassure ourselves that we have value, even in tough economic times. I firmly believe we do have some kind of value and I have little to no sympathy for a bar owner who expects me to play for peanuts in order for them to maintain a healthy profit. Why should my pay be cut for their success? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChordGirl Posted March 7, 2010 Members Share Posted March 7, 2010 Nope....sometime you are the windshield and somtimes you are the bug. bars dont exist to feed bands. Never knew a bar owner thats reason to be in business was so a band could make money. Never knew a band that was in it so that bars could make money, either. You hear the pros talking about running a band like a business. Step one, charge what people are willing to pay for your product. A band that pulls in $3000-$4800 at the door in the October off-season is worth a lot more to that bar owner than $750. But he's not going to let you know that. He's going to give you the sob story. It's in his best interest to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChordGirl Posted March 7, 2010 Members Share Posted March 7, 2010 I think the point that is being made is that we, as musicians, should be thinking about bands in all this, since the bar owners obviously aren't doing that. This is a musician forum, after all. ^^^Yes, this is what I was trying to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MartinC Posted March 7, 2010 Members Share Posted March 7, 2010 Never knew a band that was in it so that bars could make money, either.You hear the pros talking about running a band like a business. Step one, charge what people are willing to pay for your product. A band that pulls in $3000-$4800 at the door in the October off-season is worth a lot more to that bar owner than $750. But he's not going to let you know that. He's going to give you the sob story. It's in his best interest to do so. +1000 and an amen. Good business should be a win win, not just a win. I sure didn't learn music to be in the bar business as a poorly paid promo person. I had one guitar teacher who really knew the value of his time, and he taught his students not only how to play, but how to put on a show, and how to get paid for it. It really set him apart from many other people I studied with. If there were more like him, it would be better for musicians who are trying to earn money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted March 7, 2010 Members Share Posted March 7, 2010 I'd much rather get paid $0 and play my own music, than play the crap people like. Me too, but fortunately I've found a way to do both and make decent enough dough doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members modulusman Posted March 8, 2010 Members Share Posted March 8, 2010 Nope....sometime you are the windshield and somtimes you are the bug. bars dont exist to feed bands. Never knew a bar owner thats reason to be in business was so a band could make money. No bars exist to get rich off of drunks and bands to stupid to charge what they are worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wheresgrant3 Posted March 8, 2010 Members Share Posted March 8, 2010 I'd much rather get paid $0 and play my own music, than play the crap people like.Oh Orange... it's been so long.... Every 6 months or so you pop into a thread like a Groundhog from Punxsutawney. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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