If you think of your band as a 'business'...

[Vito Corleone]

 

So - I just don't think it's very good advice really to imply to young bands that they need to manage themselves from within the band. They need a quality manager that's not a band member.

 

 

I won't go that far. A lot of acts go far without an outside manager, especially one as hands on as Herbert.

 

But yeah, many things NEED to be done in a business-like manner. Sure it's great to have outside sources do all that stuff so the band can concentrate on the music---especially for an original band trying to make it to the big time---but for a cover band? Not so much. Maybe you need a booking agent, but that's about it.

 

So again, I think it's a matter of having a common collective goal that is agreed upon and then divvy up the work according to the individual's skill set. If somebody is great at doing the website--that's who should do that. If somebody else has the knack for song choices and arrangements---that's who should do that. If somebody else is better at dealing with agents and clubowners, that should be his job. Etc etc etc.

 

If most of the work falls to one or two people (which it almost always does--- in every band I've ever been in, anyway), then so be it. And the other's should be smart enough/professional enough to get out of the way.

[wades_keys]

This is business:

 

So they missed a real opportunity there?

They just don't understand that there's something more to it than just writing songs and singing and playing. That business component of it and the thing is I was pretty much solely focused on that. All the other activities were done in the vacuum of their absence. They said well we're not gonna, even after Raised on Radio in '86.

I said {censored} it then, I'm gonna do this band Europe from Sweden. I got the job for Kevin Elson to produce it, I'm gonna break it, they released it, they failed, I'm gonna rerelease it and make it a home run. I was playing it for Jeff McClusky and Jerry Mickelson on the back of a band bus outside of the Rosemont Horizon on Journey's Raised on Radio tour, and Steve and Neal came into the back of the bus and said 'oh man that's tired and in the weeds. That'll never happen'.

That was The Final Countdown. It went {censored}in' #1 all over the world. (laughter)

 

So , yeah: tell me why again that someone in the band should be handling the business?

 

He'd better be damn good and willing to take bullets from his bandmates.

 

Oh yeah, Herbert also picked up Roxette and put them on the top of the charts - then you factor in his work with Santana and several other bands. Dude knew what he was doing - he was the secret weapon.

 

Look at Zep + Peter Grant. Similar situation. Rolling Stones also had exceptional and powerful management.

http://www.melodicrock.com/interviews/herbieherbert.html

[Vito Corleone]

Herbie Herbert claims that he made sure Valory and Smith were "taken care of" financially, because "that's what you do for your people". So it's pretty safe to assume that they did NOT have contracts that would have covered them.

depends on what "taken care of" means. It could mean having a good contract. I seriously doubt they needed to be "taken care of" following so many huge albums and tours. I also wonder if Herbert so generously "took care" of Robert Fleishmann, Aynsley Dunbar and Gregg Rolie?

 

In the earlier interview, Herbert states that Steve Perry bought out the other band members except for Neal Schon; so basically Perry and Schon are the sole shareholder's in Journey, INC while the other members are paid employees. Now there's some business 101 for ya all: the harsh reality.

 

I guess it sucks to be Ross Valory. Since Steve Smith hasn't been with the band for years, and the new guys are the new guys, I'm not sure what claim they should have to whatever "Journey, Inc" generates anyway. And since Jonathan Cain has songwriting credits on pretty much every song on every album he played on, he is no doubt receiving nice paychecks.

 

And besides, why would those guys sell their shares to Steve Perry in the first place? What, Perry gets 4/5ths of Journey for sitting around and doing nothing? No WONDER he doesn't do anything anymore...

[wades_keys]

depends on what "taken care of" means. It could mean having a good contract. I seriously doubt they needed to be "taken care of" following so many huge albums and tours. I also wonder if Herbert so generously "took care" of Robert Fleishmann, Aynsley Dunbar and Gregg Rolie?

Hard to say.

 

But again, at the time of "Raised on Radio", Valory and Smith were paid employees - they were not principals in teh corporation.

 

I don't think Smith ever was made a partner, but Valory and Cain were: they both sold out to Steve Perry for several million dollars.

 

Hey, this thread is about business: this is business.

 

And no, I don't have any sympathy for the other bandmembers or feel that they are owed anything. They gave up that right for a few million on the table.

 

According to Herbert, they also had some very lucrative commercial real estate holdings that he hooked em up with during the tech bust in the mid 80's - Herbert and Perry held on to theirs and made big, big money selling off those interests during the tech boom in the 90's.

 

Business.

[Vito Corleone]

 

So , yeah: tell me why again that someone in the band should be handling the business?

 

 

Give Herbie a call. Maybe he can work out your grievances with Kingfish.

[wades_keys]

 

Give Herbie a call. Maybe he can work out your grievances with Kingfish.

 

You know, I don't even have one.

 

It wasn't a good fit for us. {censored}ty venue, not very accomodating.

 

They're booking my old band in there now, which is a gig I actually handed to Corey on a silver platter some months ago.

 

Hey, some gigs just ain't worth foolin with - they run the "classic rock" stuff through there and that's really not what we do. (here, "classic rock" = the setlist that is popular on 107.7 WSFR. IN fact, they have a contest going on right now for the "house band", that gets guaranteed bookings at that same KingFish)

 

So we're gonna focus on the patio stuff and then hopefully try and expand in a somewhat new direction for next year (I'm working on a few "ideas" let's just say - all low key though, gotta get through these last few gigs first).

[Vito Corleone]

 

I don't think Smith ever was made a partner, but Valory and Cain were: they both sold out to Steve Perry for several million dollars.

 

 

Weird that Cain would be a partner and Smith not since Smith was in the band earlier.

 

But who knows how that stuff all comes about? Also not sure about all the conflicting stories band members tell over the years. Where did you get the Rolie hated Perry stuff? I've never heard that. I've always heard Rolie claim he left because he was tired of the road. (Although I always assumed he had issues with the musical direction as well, but I've never heard him state as such.)

 

Also, I ran across this 2002 interview with Rolie, Schon, Cain and Valory where they talk about getting rid of Dunbar because he overplayed:

 

Uncle Joe: Aynsley left after the Infinity Tour.

Gregg: Right.

Uncle Joe: Too much on the road? Did you know it was coming? Was it like one day, "I'm not coming back"? Was it Spinal Tap or was it just . . .

Gregg: No, it was kinda, I mean, he wanted to play more. Neal's put this probably the best of anybody. He played a lot and he was used to doing Zappa and playin'. And we were toning it down. And so it wasn't working right. And it was really Perry's call, but it wasn't feeling right for him and so we went along with it

 

Also Rolie seems to agree with what I said about Journey's success after he left:

Gregg: I really lost track of who I was. That was my problem. It's my own personal problem. You know, it didn't belong to anybody. And to, you know, come to grips with that and look at it and go--you know I've gotta cool out here. I drink too much--this is not cool. So I made that choice. And it's like, it's time to reel it back in. And it was that simple. And when I finished that last gig in Japan I swear to God, to this day, I look back and it was such a relief that I just walked off. And I was glad to have done what I did. I was glad to be in that band. Everything was cool, but I just couldn't do it anymore.

Uncle Joe: Did you go into shock six months later?

Gregg: No, as a matter of fact no. And everybody has asked me that. My God, you must have looked back, and they went on to do Escape and Frontiers and I say God bless them--they wouldn't have done it with me. You know, if Jonathan Cain hadn't come in there and helped them write and craft some of those songs, they wouldn't have done that. It wouldn't have happened. Because a band is about all the members involved. It's not about one guy.

 

 

 

http://www.journey-zone.com/Archive/Interviews/2002.htm#3

[wades_keys]

But who knows how that stuff all comes about? Also not sure about all the conflicting stories band members tell over the years. Where did you get the Rolie hated Perry stuff? I've never heard that. I've always heard Rolie claim he left because he was tired of the road. (Although I always assumed he had issues with the musical direction as well, but I've never heard him state as such.)

Read the first interview with Herbie Herbert (from 1992)

 

He did not sign the contract with Steve Perry that every other Journey member had to sign.

 

A contract that prevents them from speaking ill of Perry or any former band member.....Herbert talks about that contract, and then proceeds to basically dish up the truth on what went down in those days.

 

Rolie and the other guys won't speak ill of Steve Perry because he will sue their asses off.

 

And Herbert's story does agree with what you posted: he says Perry did not like Dunbar's lack of groove and lack of connection to American R&B.

 

That seems sensible given the direction he went with Smith and the solo stuff.

[Vito Corleone]

Read the first interview with Herbie Herbert (from 1992) He did not sign the contract with Steve Perry that every other Journey member had to sign. A contract that prevents them from speaking ill of Perry or any former band member.....Herbert talks about that contract, and then proceeds to basically dish up the truth on what went down in those days. Rolie and the other guys won't speak ill of Steve Perry because he will sue their asses off. And Herbert's story does agree with what you posted: he says Perry did not like Dunbar's lack of groove and lack of connection to American R&B. That seems sensible given the direction he went with Smith and the solo stuff.

 

So in fear of being sued Rolie blames it on his drinking??? That's seems a bit much, doesn't it?

 

But Herbert seems to have quite the ego himself and contradicts himself quite a bit from interview to interview so, who knows? Seems like he certainly doesn't like Steve Perry and a lot of that seems to stem from the fact that Perry wanted to wrest control of the band from Herbert. So that alone would have him hating the guy, I imagine.

 

I couldn't find the '92 interview you mentioned--only the 2008 interview you linked and a 2001 interview linked in the 2008 interview---but in the couple of interviews I did read, I didn't see him say anything about Rolie wanting to punch out Perry. The closest I saw was something about Rolie seeing "bad things ahead" and wanting to get out. I also saw him say that Rolie recommended Cain for the band even though Herbert disagreed because he thought that The Babys "sucked". So I guess the master wasn't always right.

 

Also he claims in one interview that he laid out the the names for all their albums from "Infinity" through "Freedom" with artwork intact before they did "Infinity". So unless he could predict all the member changes ahead, I don't see how the album titles had anything to do with that. (And "Captured" is a perfect name for a live album. Did he envision the 4th record being a live album way back in '78 when the band was on the verge of being dropped by the label?)

 

I also liked how where he talks about making sure Valory and Smith were "taken care of" but that they "wouldn't remember that let alone reciprocate". Huh?

 

Herbert was no doubt a genius manager of mostly schlocky bands, but his ego seems to only be rivaled by perhaps Steve Perry.

[wades_keys]

 

Herbert was no doubt a genius manager of mostly schlocky bands, but his ego seems to only be rivaled by perhaps Steve Perry.

 

Exactly.

 

That's what makes the story/legend/speculation such a glorius and epic trainwreck.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Exactly. That's what makes the story/legend/speculation such a glorius and epic trainwreck.

 

 

LOL. Yep. I do like trainwreck stories.

 

For what it's worth all signs DO seem to point to the fact that Perry's voice is shot and has been for a while. To that degree, I actually give him a bit of credit for not putting himself out there. While he certainly doesn't need the money, that hasn't stopped a lot of other singers over the years from continuing to go on even though they are way past their prime. (Hello, Rod Stewart?) AFAIK, there isn't a single recording of Perry sounding anything less than very, very good. That he doesn't want to tarnish that image is more to his credit than not, IMO.

 

I used to own a video rental store up here and one of my regular customers was Mickey Thomas. One time I was chatting with him and the subject of Journey came up and I asked him what the deal with Steve Perry was. He told me too that the bad hip story was bogus and the real story was that he simply couldn't hit the high notes anymore.

 

Of course, at that time anyway (I haven't heard him sing in years so I don't know if he still can or not), Mickey could still sing like a mofo, so I think there was a bit of gloating on his part with that version.

[Rell]

I just don't play covers, but I'd never really hope to make money off my music.

[BlueStrat]

 

I won't go that far. A lot of acts go far without an outside manager, especially one as hands on as Herbert.

 

 

They do, but unlike the old days where musicians could make a living performing, most musicians today have to hold down some kind of day job in addition to performing, writing, rehearsing, promoting and then having some kind of life outside music with a woman and possibly a kid. This is where representation could make or break a promising act. I hate to think of how many really good bands never break the barrier because they are maxed out on their own capability but don't have decent management.

[Lee Flier]

 

They do, but unlike the old days where musicians could make a living performing, most musicians today have to hold down some kind of day job in addition to performing, writing, rehearsing, promoting and then having some kind of life outside music with a woman and possibly a kid. This is where representation could make or break a promising act. I hate to think of how many really good bands never break the barrier because they are maxed out on their own capability but don't have decent management.

 

 

+97653242.

[timrocker]

(Quote) "I used to own a video rental store up here and one of my regular customers was Mickey Thomas. One time I was chatting with him and the subject of Journey came up and I asked him what the deal with Steve Perry was. He told me too that the bad hip story was bogus and the real story was that he simply couldn't hit the high notes anymore.

 

Of course, at that time anyway (I haven't heard him sing in years so I don't know if he still can or not), Mickey could still sing like a mofo, so I think there was a bit of gloating on his part with that version."

 

If I can jump in here, late in the (excellent) thread. Mickey Thomas guested with my group in May of this year. We played his new single "Gotta Get Out Again" with him. His voice was terrific!

 

You can see the whole 30 minute episode at www.bradtv.tv. Select The Channel and then episode 4.

 

Having had Jefferson Starship records when I was a kid, it was a thrill to work with Mickey Thomas!

[Vito Corleone]

If I can jump in here, late in the (excellent) thread. Mickey Thomas guested with my group in May of this year. We played his new single "Gotta Get Out Again" with him. His voice was terrific! You can see the whole 30 minute episode at www.bradtv.tv . Select The Channel and then episode 4. Having had Jefferson Starship records when I was a kid, it was a thrill to work with Mickey Thomas!

 

Glad to hear he's still got the voice! One of the great voices in rock history and one that gets a bit overlooked, I think, because he was never a big headcase with oversized ego. Mickey is a genuinely good guy.

[Dancebass]

 

I can't think of anything more miserable than that, with the exception of having sex with someone I can't stand.

 

 

 

I'm actually quite fond of that.

[Dancebass]

 

Nickleback, Metallica, Godsmack etc etc

 

 

 

I've seen this thrown around on here a few times in the past and I just don't get it. Can someone provide any proof that backs up the claim that Metallica was a cover band?

 

When was this suppose to have happened? Prior to them moving from LA to San Francisco to get Cliff in the band? Prior to them moving to New York to record Kill'em All and replacing Dave with Kirk? When did this version of Metallica exist? Were they playing out in clubs in LA doing covers? San Francisco? Were they doing this as Metallica? James and Lars were about 18 when they met and put Metallica together. There is video proof of them playing Kill'em All songs live with Dave on guitar shortly after moving to San Fran. Kille'm All was recorded afterwards with Kirk. So obviously they were playing concerts as Metallica long before the first record was released and Kill'em All was released prior to them being 20 years old.

 

So when did this happen?

[Vito Corleone]

 

I'm actually quite fond of that.

 

 

Angry sex can be good.

[Lee Flier]

I'm actually quite fond of that.

 

Well, y'all have fun with that then. Leave me out of it! Geesh, were you guys abused as children or something? :poke:

[Hegmatronicon]

They didnt start out as a working covers band.....but the Ad that Lars placed and James responded to - was seeking like minded musicians....basically - someone to play Lars's favourite NWOBHM songs with him.

 

Thats how they started out and met each other. Prior to writing any of their own stuff.

Its in heaps of interviews that have been done over the years.

 

 

I've seen this thrown around on here a few times in the past and I just don't get it. Can someone provide any proof that backs up the claim that Metallica was a cover band? When was this suppose to have happened? Prior to them moving from LA to San Francisco to get Cliff in the band? Prior to them moving to New York to record Kill'em All and replacing Dave with Kirk? When did this version of Metallica exist? Were they playing out in clubs in LA doing covers? San Francisco? Were they doing this as Metallica? James and Lars were about 18 when they met and put Metallica together. There is video proof of them playing Kill'em All songs live with Dave on guitar shortly after moving to San Fran. Kille'm All was recorded afterwards with Kirk. So obviously they were playing concerts as Metallica long before the first record was released and Kill'em All was released prior to them being 20 years old. So when did this happen?

 

[Vito Corleone]

 

They didnt start out as a working covers band.....but the Ad that Lars placed and James responded to - was seeking like minded musicians....basically - someone to play Lars's favourite NWOBHM songs with him. Thats how they started out and met each other. Prior to writing any of their own stuff. Its in heaps of interviews that have been done over the years.

 

 

Well that's silly then. Pretty much every band starts out playing SOME covers. I was talking in terms of bands that made their LIVING playing covers and then went on to do originals and got record deals. That rarely, if ever happens anymore.

 

Metallica wasn't that kind of band. If Nickelback, Godsmack, etc were, I don't know.