Finder's fee on gigs

[etcetra]

I accepted this gig at a major local music festival, and I found out that there was a big difference between what the band leader is giving the rest of the band and what musicians were supposed to get. Assuming that he is getting paid the same amount as the other bands, he is taking 30% of the pay from each musician for himself.

 

Put it this way. You live in LA and you get a called for $400 gig in San Diego. It's about 2-3hr drive but the leader is picking everyone up in his van. You later find out that the band leader is taking $200 off everyone's paycheck. So basically the gig pays $2400, the leader takes $1200 and we split the other half amongst ourselves.

 

I understand that he deserve more because he is driving us there and he is taking care of the non-music related stuff, but taking half of the total paycheck?

 

My friend was pretty upset about this, but we decided to do the gig anyways because the leader is a well known player here, and the gig gets you exposure. I started asking people to see whether practice like this is common in the area. What I've found out is that the people I like to work with, and the people I trust tend to share the money evenly or at least be transparent about taking more. and give reasonable explanations.

 

I know there is "finder's fee" and you are entitled to more money because you are the one who got the gig.. I guess in some ways I expect things to work that way.. but at the same time it's important to be reasonable about what you take. for me 30% seems excessive, even though it's still a pretty good paying gig.

 

Bottom lines is, I really don't know if I have it in me to take that much money from my friends I work with, and I don't know if I want to create an environment where everyone around me are sharks and you are finding ways to rip off each other. I want to stay away from that kind of ugliness as much as I can.

 

Maybe I need to accept that I am being taken advantaged of because I am not well known, and know that when I am the position of power, I can probably do the same thing that the band leader is doing to other younger musicians..maybe that's how it works.. but that idea doesn't sit well with me.

 

So I was wondering how does finder's fee work in your area, and how do you guys deal with situation like this.. if you were in my shoes 1)would you decline the gig out of principle, 2)ask the band leader about the money situation, even if it's uncomfortable, or 3) have you pretty much accepted that you are swimming in the sea of sharks and accepted the fact that you are dealing with a lot of ethical gray area?

[gspointer]

Are you a "band" or a sideman? What is your normal deal? Seems OK to me if you are not a "band"

[ido1957]

Yeah we need more details about band ownership. If you're a hired musician then you take the gig and the pay or you walk. You don't get to decide the pay in that situation. You can always start your own band and call the shots.

Being a bandleader isn't always fun and the extra cut doesn't always make up for the BS some bandmembers dish out. (no personal reference intended).

[jeff42]

we split evenly 6 ways. 5 musicians and soundman. When some other band guys find out we do this they are very confused. In a lot of bands I know there is a leader who takes more than the rest.

[stevesherbert]

so... is $400 a fair price for you to play the gig or not? and how does knowing what other people earn change the amount that you consider acceptable? imo, nothing good will come if you complain about this particular contract, which you did, after all, agree to beforehand. maybe you need to ask for more money next time.

[rodclement]

I've worked in three situations with bands

 

In the duo, we devided the take in 3, and whoever booked the gig got one exra share. Steady gigs got split in half.

 

In a full band it was equal shares unless one person owned all the PA, than they got an extra share. If we had a soundman, his fee got deducted from the top.

 

As a hired gun "wedding singer" I got paid per set or job, had no clue how much the band charged or who made what, just cared about what I got paid.

 

Rod

[SBF3000]

we split everything evenly. I do most of the work scheduling gigs, etc, but I am not a greedy piece of {censored}, there are plenty of them out there. It takes all of us to pull of a good show, we all load in and out.

[SpaceNorman]

If I'm reading the scenario right - a bandleader you know called you and offered you $400 to perform for a night - which you accepted. All you had to do was get on the bus and play when you got there. You got your $400 .... but learned that band leader booked the gig at $2,400 and are now questioning if you got screwed.

 

The answer is no - you didn't get screwed. Bands and their members often have payment formulas based on the total amount of the booking. However your not a bandmember in the scenario you've described - you're a hired gun sideman in this situation. You get whatever you agreed to play for.

[BlueStrat]

 

so... is $400 a fair price for you to play the gig or not? and how does knowing what other people earn change the amount that you consider acceptable? imo, nothing good will come if you complain about this particular contract, which you did, after all, agree to beforehand. maybe you need to ask for more money next time.

 

 

This. ^^^

 

 

I do concerts for a local guy who sets up shows all over the area all summer. The least he ever offers me is 100/guy to play. I heard from some other bands that they refuse to play his shows because he pockets like $300-400 a show. And I always say "so what?" This guy works hard to get the venues, the sponsors, the posters and flyers printed and distributed, ads in the paper and radio...what do I care how much he makes, as long as he offers me what I'm willing to play for?

[etcetra]

Thanks for all the feedback, I really appreciate you guys giving me perspective.

 

First of all let me clarify that I am doing this gig as hired gun/sideman

 

I did tell my friend that's how things work sometimes you just have to deal with it, I've also told him that we do not know for sure whether he is getting the same rate as everyone else. But I kind of wanted to get perspective from different people on this issue. A lot of my friends I've talked to told me how much they take off the top largely depend on how much work the leader has to do on top of what everyone else have to do, like advertising, arranging charts.. etc but in general they would not take more than 30% from each person.

 

I am not saying the pay should be equal between all the musicians, of course the leader should take an extra cut because he had to do more work, and he got this gig through his "name" but I wanted to get an idea as to how much % cut you are entitled as a leader, and how you can be fair about it. Depending on how much extra work I get, I might take 10-20% from everyone else, but I feel a little uncomfortable if I take more than 40% of the total pay, especially if I am playing with my friends whom I work with a lot.

 

Put it this way if you got a $2400 quartet gig how would you go about splitting it, assuming that there isn't a whole lot of work involved in it as a leader?

 

I am not planning to dispute the pay issue with the leader, but I just wanted to know what would be appropriate for myself as a bandleader, without straining my relationship with the people I work with, especially my close friends.

[niceguy]

Ah. Well, if you're a hired gun, then you get whatever amount that is agreed upon when you take the gig. The amount that the gig actually pays is completely irrelevant; you're hired for a job, at an agreed-upon rate, and that's the end of that.

[etcetra]

It's a little tricky because I know someone who did the same thing a while ago and got a really bad reputation for that. He made it sounded like the gig didn't paid that well, but he was pocketing at least half the money to himself. The pay was still pretty decent (probably better than what I was getting), but when his friends found out they were pretty pissed and they refused to work with him.

 

The advice I got from my friende here is "do the gig, but I'd reconsider working with him in the future if he does things like that". So I am guessing if I did the same thing to my friends they won't think very highly of what I do. I guess it's awkward because none of my friends who are good players here take that much for a leader's fee(most take very little or none at all).

 

I guess it comes down to the fact that this guy has better business skill than we do.

[stevie j]

 

Put it this way if you got a $2400 quartet gig how would you go about splitting it, assuming that there isn't a whole lot of work involved in it as a leader?

 

 

When you hire a side man, you ask 'What is your fee?' A band is a business, the leader will quote as much as he thinks he can get, then he has to find the musos.

 

For example, if there's a wedding and he can get

[etcetra]

Well, I guess the question of what is appropriate does seem relative to the people you work with. What I wanted to know was whether people outside of where I live work with each other knowing these things happen, and how one determines what's fair. Because I am pretty sure if I did took double-rate for gigs as a leader my friends will probably avoid working with me and not call me for their gigs, but when I was in LA it was pretty common that you take leader's fee, and you are aware of the fact that some people may take a lot.

 

But then again I had a discussion with my friends in LA today and they were talking about taking 10-20% more than the sideman depending on how much extra work you do as a leader and If it's a gig that requires little or no work as a leader they will split the pay evenly.. so what can I say, it's different for everyone.

__________________

[gspointer]

IMO as a sideman, whatever the gig pays is irrelevant. I am hired to play for 200, if the job is worth it to me, time-travel-hassle etc. I do the gig, if not, I pass. If my employer, ie:the guy paying me, makes 200,000, good for him.

[etcetra]

I guess a lot of this depends on whether you are close friends with you are working with too.. if it's purely a professional situation and got hired by people I don't know, then well yea I expect things to work that way. But if it's a gig you are doing with your good friends..well I don't want strain my friendship with other people just to get more $$ .. and how people react really depends and what's commonly accepted in your area,

[Chicken Monkey]

It's business, not friendship. You're a contractor, you said you could get the job done for the agreed-upon rate, so do the job. If you're getting paid less that you think you deserve, that's entirely your fault. Negotiate for more, and assume the other guy is aiming for less.

[rodclement]

Also, what you do in the band is relevant to pay, for example, I sing and when I fill in for weddings I get paid more per set than the horn section guys and the bass player (for example, no hate mail please!), it seems reliable singers are tougher to find. In my duo, we split things 50/50 for steady gigs so the combination of situation and your role in the band may dictate the band willingness to pay you more or less.

 

Bottom line is, ask what you think you need for the gig and be happy with it.

 

Rod

[Tele-vania65000]

 

we split evenly 6 ways. 5 musicians and soundman. When some other band guys find out we do this they are very confused. In a lot of bands I know there is a leader who takes more than the rest.

 

 

That is a lot of mouths to feed. :poke:

[Blackbird 13]

I don't get it? The cashier that works at Walmart doesn't flip when they find out how much the store took in that day, they just do the job they were hired to do, and cash the check. And that's not exclusive to lower paying jobs either. Across the board, people are hired by companies where the company (and people running it) are making more money than they are. This is never really a problem in any other sort of business, why should it be in this one?

 

I pay my drummer a flat rate, and my bassist/soundman (with his PA) a flat rate. The other singer and I split the rest, but we split the work as well. The bassist and drummer are considered the bassist and drummer for the group, but we will call a fill in if they're unable to do the gig, with the same arrangement of pay.

 

Why is this an issue in music, but nowhere else?

[n9ne]

If it were a band arrangement, then it would be up to the band members to agree amongst themselves on compensation for each gig.

 

But if it's a sideman gig, then it doesn't matter what the gig pays....you're hired by the bandleader, and you're working for him, and the compensation is agreed upon by both parties.

 

It may be that you feel like you're getting screwed, especially on higher-paying gigs.....but there are also distinct advantages to doing it this way.

 

If the van breaks down or blows a tire....you're not paying for it. Dealings/disputes with booking agents, club owners, show organizers, production companies, etc....not your problem.

 

In theory, a sideman gig guarantees that you'll be compensated fairly for your services, no matter what the gig pays...even if the bandleader ends up losing money after expenses. And assuming that everything is on the up-an-up, that's exactly how it works.

 

My advice: if you're going to work a sideman gig, don't even worry about what kind of money the shows are bringing in. It's not your problem, it's none of your business, and absolutely no good can come from you knowing how much the bandleader (or anyone else) is making. As long as your own expectations are being met, that's all you need to worry about.

[Austincowbell]

Sounds like you are getting the gigs due to the brand which the band leader established for himself but you aren't really assigning any value to that brand. Unless you have split past marketing costs etc you need to treat each gig as a one-off where your wages are or not acceptable.

[etcetra]

First of all I want to clarify this.. I am not going to dispute the pay issue with the leader.. that's not the issue here.. it's about figuring out for myself what would be acceptable for me as a bandleader... and figure out how to a an fair employer/vendor when I am hiring my musician friends for gigs

 

I guess the thing is there is a very small community of good players here (maybe 50 or so that I work with regularly) , and they are all pretty much my friends, so I have to careful and make sure I observe what's tolerated here rather than thinking in terms of what I know from working in LA.

 

Like I said, when I was in LA I expected these things to happen and I even told my friend that this is just how the business goes. Frankly I was a little surprised that everyone I talked to here reacted very negatively to the situation I described.

 

Like I said earlier, this guy I know used to lie to his friends/band mates about how much he was getting paid, and they accepted a rate that was lower than what they usually expect because they were his friend.. and when they found out how much the leader was getting, they all refused to wok with him. He pretty much alienated himself from all the musician friends he had.

 

Regardless of where I am, I just want to make sure I don't want to be like the bandleader who lost all his close musicians friends(who were the only good friends he had) because of the way he conducted business.

 

I would avoid paying different rates for different members of the band, since the same people work together pretty frequently and I don't want to create tension between people, and it's not a common practice, at least with the community of people I work with here.

[SpaceNorman]

 

First of all I want to clarify this.. I am not going to dispute the pay issue with the leader.. that's not the issue here.. it's about figuring out for myself what would be acceptable for me as a bandleader... and figure out how to a an fair employer/vendor when I am hiring my musician friends for gigs I guess the thing is there is a very small community of good players here (maybe 50 or so that I work with regularly) , and they are all pretty much my friends, so I have to careful and make sure I observe what's tolerated here rather than thinking in terms of what I know from working in LA. Like I said, when I was in LA I expected these things to happen and I even told my friend that this is just how the business goes. Frankly I was a little surprised that everyone I talked to here reacted very negatively to the situation I described. Like I said earlier, this guy I know used to lie to his friends/band mates about how much he was getting paid, and they accepted a rate that was lower than what they usually expect because they were his friend.. and when they found out how much the leader was getting, they all refused to wok with him. He pretty much alienated himself from all the musician friends he had. Regardless of where I am, I just want to make sure I don't want to be like the bandleader who lost all his close musicians friends(who were the only good friends he had) because of the way he conducted business. I would avoid paying different rates for different members of the band, since the same people work together pretty frequently and I don't want to create tension between people, and it's not a common practice, at least with the community of people I work with here.

 

 

Perhaps the situation you described in your original post is why we may have misunderstood you. The situation you described in your original post sounded like the typical "hired gun / sub" gig arrangement. As you can see from the responses you got - most all of us consider that to simply be how things work for "hired guns" and "subs".

 

In this post however, you're talking about how the "bandleader" deals with "members of the band". I suspect you'll find that most of us see that as a completely different relationship than the "hired gun/sub" relationship you initially asked about. For most of us "hired guns/subs" are not considered "members of the band" in a business sense.

 

When it comes to how a band splits money - you'll find there are a wide variety of approaches used by the members of this forum. Perhaps you need to restate your question?

[StratGuy22]

I get $250/night for doing sound. It doesn't matter if 10 people show up, or if 100 people show up, I still get my fee. I always hope lots of people show up, because I want the gig to be successful.