P.A. guys - bad room - any advice?

[kmart]

 

Maybe you live where there are enough gigs that you don't have to take what gets offered, but here it's adapt or stay home and somebody else will do it.

 

 

Location has zero to do with it. I simply won't take gigs where those kind of situations are at play.

I did this band thing for many years where playing a gig meant eating a {censored} sandwich on one level or another, and paid my dues until I was playing in the prime venues in a major market city regularly.

I'm not playing in those venues anymore (not doing originals, nor am I young enough for that aspect of the game), but I recognize a good gig vs one that's going to suck big time in some way related to being inappropriate for a band, and I'm willing to decline those where I'm being served a {censored} sandwich again...

 

Not worth the time and effort for me to do the work if I'm not going to enjoy the gig because someone wants to cram a 4 piece not a space made for a 4-top, or a band into a room where an acoustic is too loud, etc.

[TIMKEYS]

 

Location has zero to do with it. I simply won't take gigs where those kind of situations are at play. I did this band thing for many years where playing a gig meant eating a {censored} sandwich on one level or another, and paid my dues until I was playing in the prime venues in a major market city regularly. I'm not playing in those venues anymore (not doing originals, nor am I young enough for that aspect of the game), but I recognize a good gig vs one that's going to suck big time in some way related to being inappropriate for a band, and I'm willing to decline those where I'm being served a {censored} sandwich again... Not worth the time and effort for me to do the work if I'm not going to enjoy the gig because someone wants to cram a 4 piece not a space made for a 4-top, or a band into a room where an acoustic is too loud, etc.

 

 

Man, you are high strung.

[twostone]

 

Man, you are high strung.

 

 

Hey TimKeys we're doing a food joint gig, so your gonna have to bust out the Casio KB and you'll have use the on board speakers only so enjoy.

That's what K is saying.

[modulusman]

 

Hey TimKeys we're doing a food joint gig, so your gonna have to bust out the Casio KB and you'll have use the on board speakers only so enjoy. That's what K is saying.

 

 

A food joint thing is TimKeys regular gig.

[BlueStrat]

 

I simply won't take gigs where those kind of situations are at play.

That's fair enough.I'm just saying you wouldn't be gigging much here. Not that there are that many gigs anyway, but as my old drummer who quit because he didn't like playing quiet is discovering, he's sitting at home an awful lot and his phone isn't ringing. But he hates having to play quietly, so it's his choice and I respect it.

 

 

Hey TimKeys we're doing a food joint gig, so your gonna have to bust out the Casio KB and you'll have use the on board speakers only so enjoy. That's what K is saying.

 

 

That might be what he's saying, but it's not reality. Some drummers are playing full kits at low volumes and actually sounding good doing it. It's just being a pro. I'm not talking about ability, I'm talking about a pro attitude. It doesn't mean guys who don't like playing quietly aren't quality players. Almost none of us are pros here anymore, if ever we were, so we don't play a club because we have to. Being selective is the luxury of the hobbyist. There isn't enough money in it anymore for guys to have to play and hate what they're doing and do it for peanuts. That was what my my old drummer told me- and I get it and I respect it. I don't want guys playing with me that aren't having fun doing it. But one of the clubs that just picked my band up for rotation told me that the biggest complaint they get about volume issues with bands is from women on the dance floor. If it's too loud on the dance floor, they leave. This is a place with a corner "stage" (actually, no stage at all), hard walls, and low ceiling. It's a fairly typical setup for around here.

 

When I was on the road full time, my paycheck depended on making clients happy and getting re-booked. Sometimes we'd play clubs where our sound system wasn't big enough and we could play as loud as we wanted. But half the time, we had to play lower than we wanted to, sometimes a lot lower, leaving half the PA in the truck, even having our sound guy sit in the hotel room all week. When you're out playing full time, you do what the gig calls for or you go get a day job.

 

Personally, I find being able to perform and connect with an audience at a low volume to be challenging and fun in and of itself. I've had more than one musician ask me how I got a certain tone or sustain at that volume. But I admit it isn't for everyone, and it took me along time to adapt to it and come to like it. Fortunately, I now have a drummer who is a total package guy- he teaches drums, has done lots of studio work in LA, and views each gig as a unique situation that requires a different approach and a different set of tools to do the job. Does that make him better? Not necessarily. It's better for me, because I get to book more gigs without knowing I'm going to get a bunch of pissing and moaning about it. It's better for him, because his datebook is full for about 3-4 nights a week and playing drums or percussion is all he does. It just depends on what a person wants out of playing music and why they do it.

 

Bitchy musicians and bitchy bartenders/managers/owners at the available gigs is one of the biggest reasons I'm booking a lot more solo gigs. I just played a new solo venue last weekend and the guy wants me in his regular rotation. That's three venues now, and I've had interest from a fourth. If I can get two more regular gigs solo I might just bail on the band thing altogether and just use pickup players when I need them.

[stratotastic]

^ Well said, Pat.

 

There will always be two sides to this argument.

 

1) Yours, which is the more professional attitude of understanding that you need to make certain accommodations to keep the clients happy and your business successful.

 

2) The guys that don't give a crap about what the clients want as long as they (the "musicians") are having fun.

 

As they say, with more money comes more responsibility, and explains why there are so many guys playing for {censored}.

[TIMKEYS]

 

Hey TimKeys we're doing a food joint gig, so your gonna have to bust out the Casio KB and you'll have use the on board speakers only so enjoy. That's what K is saying.

 

 

small bars with the band in the corner is a pretty common thing. So are less than ideal acoustics. Take it in stride and go in and do the best job you can do. Food joint gigs are in many ways like a reception gig. You have to get them through dinner before you break out the dance set stuff or the cranked up country. We are home based in a 150 seat bar that does a good food business. It has the typical corner stage , but it also has good acoustics. Its one of the best venues down here for how music sounds. They were very careful to address that when they designed the inside of the bar. If a band works together well and knows how to get a good stage mix on there own in there ,, they will sound good. Most of what you are running on in the bar is your stage mix , because its small.

[Sillypeoples]

Anyone here work a venue with a noise limiter?

[kmart]

 

Man, you are high strung.

 

 

 

And you play a house gig at a place that doesn't even list live entertainment on their website at all.

 

So?

 

 

High strung?

You've noted that your rig stays put. Enjoy that. I'm toting a full drum kit to and from each time. It's not worth that effort for me to get someplace and have to deal with that kind of idiotic nonsense.

That's not high strung. That's having standards.

[kmart]

 

But one of the clubs that just picked my band up for rotation told me that the biggest complaint they get about volume issues with bands is from women on the dance floor. If it's too loud on the dance floor, they leave. This is a place with a corner "stage" (actually, no stage at all), hard walls, and low ceiling . It's a fairly typical setup for around here.

 

 

And they blame volume issues completely on the bands, don't they?

 

IMO, that's a screwball situation. If you/your band are willing to do the work to make that gig happen, more power to you, and I hope you can make it work. It's not that I think I couldn't if I decided to; I just don't enjoy going into a gig having to be concerned about something that's largely out of my control: I didn't invent the physics associated with acoustics and what happens when sound waves hit flat solid surfaces, after all.

[TIMKEYS]

 

And you play a house gig at a place that doesn't even list live entertainment on their website at all. So? High strung? You've noted that your rig stays put. Enjoy that. I'm toting a full drum kit to and from each time. It's not worth that effort for me to get someplace and have to deal with that kind of idiotic nonsense. That's not high strung. That's having standards.

 

 

Not sure where you got that. I play at a place that has live music 7 days a week and was from the inception was set up to be a live entertainment venue. As for the drum kit ,, show up with a snare and a high hat. No one in our band is gonna bitch if you have the chops.

[kmart]

 

Not sure where you got that.

 

 

About 5 minutes worth of Googling until I found what is clearly the venue you talk about here all the time.

 

Of course, that was about a month ago or so. Maybe they changed things since that point. Or do they do all their live music promotion via MySpace?

[BlueStrat]

 

Chief of which is #3... The guys who place what they want to get out of playing above a prospective client's needs, and who decline the gigs/situations where they'd have to compromise more than they want to in the first place.

 

 

And that's perfectly legit.

 

 

And they blame volume issues completely on the bands, don't they? IMO, that's a screwball situation.

 

 

Yes and yes. But the alternative is to sit home. I have band members wanting to play, so I book gigs. But the more the rooms that are inappropriate for bands grow in number, the more I want to drop the band ting altogether and just go it alone.

 

 

It's not that I think I couldn't if I decided to; I just don't enjoy going into a gig having to be concerned about something that's largely out of my control: I didn't invent the physics associated with acoustics and what happens when sound waves hit flat solid surfaces, after all.

 

 

And that's perfectly legit too, and I get it.

 

I think as lot of the discussion is demographic specific. I wouldn't expect to go hear a band playing 80s-90s rock or punk or modern pop dance music to be playing with brushes and such. There are places that want that kind of stuff and expect "high energy" hits at low volumes, but that doesn't involve me because it's not what I do. And frankly, if that's the kind of material I played, I wouldn't take those gigs either. Back when I had the 8 piece horn band, I turned down a lot of gigs. Of course, there were a lot more to be had then, but I'd still turn them down today.

[TIMKEYS]

 

About 5 minutes worth of Googling until I found what is clearly the venue you talk about here all the time. Of course, that was about a month ago or so. Maybe they changed things since that point. Or do they do all their live music promotion via MySpace?

 

 

 

The venue standing ads in the local tourist news papers. 3/4 pagers. Its a well known fact down here that we are the only place down here than runs live entertainment 7 days a week.

 

You might need to get your googler tuned up. Its pretty hard to google the club and not turn up stuff on the music part of things too. Our web footprint isnt the best for sure,, but I can assure you that if you came down here and started lookin for a place to go get some food and live entertainment , people will say go check out the bar.

[BlueStrat]

About 5 minutes worth of Googling until I found what is clearly the venue you talk about here all the time. Of course, that was about a month ago or so. Maybe they changed things since that point. Or do they do all their live music promotion via MySpace?

 

Don't know about where Tim plays, but-Few of the tourist places here run internet ads or even advertise on the web because they don''t have to. The rest of the venues, for the most part, are plain cheap and lazy because the depend on bands to bring them their crowds anyway.

[stratotastic]

 

I think you're neglecting to consider a number of other scenarios with those broad brushes you're painting with... Chief of which is #3... The guys who place what they want to get out of playing above a prospective client's needs, and who decline the gigs/situations where they'd have to compromise more than they want to in the first place.

 

 

I'd bucket that into #2.

[TIMKEYS]

Don't know about where Tim plays, but-Few of the tourist places here run internet ads or even advertise on the web because they don''t have to. The rest of the venues, for the most part, are plain cheap and lazy because the depend on bands to bring them their crowds anyway.

 

I think the net is a great tool for a band, and I feel we are dropping the ball when it comes to net promotions. Its a new bar with the typical growing pains. I know one of the goals is to clean up the web stuff and get that spiffy. As for advertisements, The two tourists news papers that are planted all over town is the gold standard down here. People hit town and pick up a beach rag and see whats going on. The web isnt whats bringing people through the door.

[Kramerguy]

Maybe I'm in the wrong thread, but I just don't get it-

 

Drums are distinctly loud based on how hard you hit them. Hit them less hard and they are less loud. Same with Cymbals. In 2007 I worked in two bands- One with the loudest drummer I've ever played with, who played a kit consisting of all oversized drums, and the other was a folk and rock band that while the drummer played a full kit, he could play at dinner music level and sound like a billion dollars. We would break out into the rock and do some 80's stuff and still not have to jack up amps .. we kept it even.

 

Every time I've had the argument about volume control in any band.. it's always the drummer who bitched the most about it, and always teh drummer who would fight the very concept tooth and nail from the moment it was mentioned. This isn't a slap at you Kmart, or any other drummer here- it's simply my experiences.

 

What really throws me off is why people don't prefer it? I find lower volumes to have much cleaner headroom and to be tonally superior, at least when it comes to the POV of the guitar tones and mixing in the rest of the band. Many of the best jams I've ever had were at dinner volume. Unless I'm playing metallica or other really heavy rock or metal, I just don't see the point.

 

I admit I'm outvoted in my band on this topic, and probably here as well.

[kmart]

 

What really throws me off is why people don't prefer it? I find lower volumes to have much cleaner headroom and to be tonally superior, at least when it comes to the POV of the guitar tones and mixing in the rest of the band.

 

 

IMO, drums, at least in a pop/rock setting, sound better when hit with force. That doesn't mean HARD (I don't hit my gear hard out of choice and lack of desire to do so), but that means more than just a light tappity-tap. SOME level of energy. Generally speaking, this does not happen when playing soft or with those multi-rods, etc. Or at least not easily.

 

Lightly playing drums sounds like...you don't mean it. I'm playing stuff that's at 140, 160, 180...up to 230 BPMs. It's meant to impart some energy and get people to MOVE. That doesn't happen when your overall sound could be described as 'fey', as far as I'm concerned.

 

But again, I'm not talking about this being a one extreme or the other scenario. I've clearly explained I agree there are numerous volume levels one can choose to play at that may or may not be appropriate to the situation.

 

Where I, and I suspect many drummers have issues (and again, the reason it's usually the drummer with an issue on this topic is because unlike the gear played by verticals, drums don't come with a volume knob) is when asked to play at a volume that IS at the extreme end of quiet, which is almost always, IME, because the space itself really has no business having a band with drums in it in the first place.

 

Rock/pop band playing on a concrete floor, with cinderblock and/or glass walls, low ceiling and you want to be able to hold a conversation at normal speaking voice while sitting at the table 5-6 feet away?

That's NOT my/the drummer's/the band's issue to be blunt. That's a case of expecting something that by definition really isn't realistic in the first place.

If that was my only option to gig as a drummer, I'd be fine with sitting at home on Saturday night OR I'd choose another band/genre/style to play in where I was required to (and WANTED to) play with brushes all the time.

[kmart]

 

I'd bucket that into #2.

 

 

I suppose you would, because you made it clear you want to look at this as black and white: it's one or the other.

 

Opting not to play a gig that doesn't meet one's personal preferences or put themselves in situations where they are likely to be asked to do so is no less professional than declining a gig one doesn't have the chops for, or that they can't adequately play the style, etc.

 

Unless of course by 'professional' you actually mean 'willing to take any/every opportunity given'.

I don't see the two as exactly the same.

[kmart]

 

And that's perfectly legit. Yes and yes. But the alternative is to sit home. I have band members wanting to play, so I book gigs. But the more the rooms that are inappropriate for bands grow in number, the more I want to drop the band ting altogether and just go it alone. And that's perfectly legit too, and I get it. I think as lot of the discussion is demographic specific. I wouldn't expect to go hear a band playing 80s-90s rock or punk or modern pop dance music to be playing with brushes and such. There are places that want that kind of stuff and expect "high energy" hits at low volumes, but that doesn't involve me because it's not what I do. And frankly, if that's the kind of material I played, I wouldn't take those gigs either. Back when I had the 8 piece horn band, I turned down a lot of gigs. Of course, there were a lot more to be had then, but I'd still turn them down today.

 

 

I think you and I are actually saying roughly the same thing; only in your case, what you're actually playing may be more appropriate for some of the rooms we're talking about, or at least more readily adaptable. But as you said, you wouldn't think of trying to bring an 8 piece horn band into those places. In my case, it's not about the number of players (some of the pick-up gigs I do are trios) but entirely about the styles/genres of music we're playing AND how we've decided to present that material. Again, nobody is playing uber-loud in my situation, and if pressed, it's not like that music couldn't be played at a low enough dynamic to allow someone eating their dinner special at the nearest table to hear the waiter offer dessert options easily...but that's simply not what I or the bands I play in DO, nor are we interested in doing so at present.

[twostone]

 

A food joint thing is TimKeys regular gig.

 

 

That's because I'm physic just kidding it was just lucky guess.

[stratotastic]

 

I suppose you would, because you made it clear you want to look at this as black and white: it's one or the other. Opting not to play a gig that doesn't meet one's personal preferences or put themselves in situations where they are likely to be asked to do so is no less professional than declining a gig one doesn't have the chops for, or that they can't adequately play the style, etc. Unless of course by 'professional' you actually mean 'willing to take any/every opportunity given' . I don't see the two as exactly the same.

 

 

That is in fact pretty much how I meant it. In my day work I never turn down a job unless it has something to do with compromising my ethics, or is so far away from my skill set that I couldn't handle it (in which case I refer it out). But I would never turn work down just because there is some annoyance about it that I wouldn't want to deal with, which is sort of how I equate stuff like having to turn amps down or hit drums lighter in a band context. Whether it be work or band I see that as what separates a non-serious/hobby situation vs professional employment.

[cooterbrown]

I always make use of our Driverack every single place we play, then save the settings.

[arf-boy]

 

IMO, drums, at least in a pop/rock setting, sound better when hit with force. That doesn't mean HARD (I don't hit my gear hard out of choice and lack of desire to do so), but that means more than just a light tappity-tap. SOME level of energy. Generally speaking, this does not happen when playing soft or with those multi-rods, etc . Or at least not easily. Lightly playing drums sounds like.. .you don't mean it. I'm playing stuff that's at 140, 160, 180...up to 230 BPMs. It's meant to impart some energy and get people to MOVE. That doesn't happen when your overall sound could be described as 'fey', as far as I'm concerned. But again, I'm not talking about this being a one extreme or the other scenario. I've clearly explained I agree there are numerous volume levels one can choose to play at that may or may not be appropriate to the situation. Where I, and I suspect many drummers have issues (and again, the reason it's usually the drummer with an issue on this topic is because unlike the gear played by verticals, drums don't come with a volume knob) is when asked to play at a volume that IS at the extreme end of quiet, which is almost always, IME, because the space itself really has no business having a band with drums in it in the first place. Rock/pop band playing on a concrete floor, with cinderblock and/or glass walls, low ceiling and you want to be able to hold a conversation at normal speaking voice while sitting at the table 5-6 feet away? That's NOT my/the drummer's/the band's issue to be blunt. That's a case of expecting something that by definition really isn't realistic in the first place. If that was my only option to gig as a drummer, I'd be fine with sitting at home on Saturday night OR I'd choose another band/genre/style to play in where I was required to (and WANTED to) play with brushes all the time.

 

 

The drummer in my band has no problem adjusting his volume levels according to the needs of the song or the venue. And he always sounds as if he means it.

 

If you want to play out, you've got to do what the venue wants.