Music Theory Question

[6StringSling]

In my quest to get off my lazy ass and learn the rudiments of theory I've run into something that I don't understand concerning the modes.

 

For example, the E major scale and it's modes.

 

Here's the scale: E-F#-G#-A-B-C#-D#-E

 

As far as the "formula" I know that for a major scale, the steps between notes are 1-1-1/2-1-1-1-1/2.

 

Each scale "degree" is assigned a mode. Here are the modes for E major as I understand them:

 

E = Ionian

F# = Dorian

G# = Phrygian

A = Lydian

B = Mixolydian

C# = Aeolian

D# = Locrian

 

Each mode is shifted one "degree" so the root note of the Dorian mode for E Major would be F#.

The scale would look like this: F#-G#-A-B-C#-D#-E-F# and the formula for Dorian would be 1-1/2-1-1-1-1/2-1.

 

However, I have an old book by Jody Fisher called The Guitar Mode Encyclopedia and in it, he applies the formulae for each modal scale to the major scale itself so E Dorian looks like this: E-F#-G-A-B-C#-D-E

 

It seems to me that the scale is the scale and that the modes must come from the scale; changing notes changes the scale and it's not the scale anymore.

 

Which is correct?

[IsildursBane]

 

Each mode is shifted one "degree" so the root note of the Dorian mode for E Major would be F#.

 

 

This is where your confusion lies. This Dorian mode is not called E Dorian; it's called F# Dorian (because F# is its root). IOW, E Major has the same notes as F# Dorian (and G# Phrygian, A Lydian, B Mixolydian, etc).

 

From your second example, the notes of the E Dorian scale/mode are the same as those of D Major.

 

-Dan.

[tim_7string]

The way to look at major and minor keys is that they are part of the modes.

 

Major = Ionian Mode

Minor = Aeolian Mode

 

Ionian Mode is the 1st mode, Aeolian is the 6th mode.

 

The modes are the same no matter what the original note is in Major/Ionian. So, if you choose C Ionian, it becomes as follows:

 

C Ionian

D Dorian

E Phrygian

F Lydian

G Mixolydian

A Aeolian

B Locrian

 

Scales actually come from modes, not the other way around. So, in both cases, it is correct. E Dorian would look like this:

 

D Ionian

E Dorian

F# Phyrgian

G Lydian

A Mixolydian

B Aeolian

C# Locrian

 

Same structure, just starting on a different letter and modifying accordingly with sharps as needed.

 

Hope this helps a bit.

[tshapiro]

 

It seems to me that the scale is te scale and that the modes must come from the scale; changing notes changes the scale and it's not the scale anymore.

 

 

I think if it this way: Ionian is the 'home' or base scale. From there, you have many different ways to 'stress' or adjust the scale so it has a musical effect. I presume the most basic adjustment would be the minor scale with the flat 3rd,etc. So, to identify each mode, one would have to descibe all the adjustments. Or, the easier way is to say "Adjusting the scale in such a way that it is configured just is if it started on the 2nd degree of the base (Ionian) scale is called Dorian." So, with this its just a naming convention for different scale configurations and different scale configurations have different musical effects.

[wades_keys]

You may be confusing the KEY with the scale.

 

As other posters have said, the proper way to name the mode is to use the note that it starts on.

 

So in your example, starting the E major scale, the Dorian mode would be F# dorian.

 

The key signature however remains E, as long as you stay strictly "in mode" with no accidentals.

 

Hope that helped.

[6StringSling]

Thanks guys. I guess I was assuming that for the Key of E that E Ionian, E Dorian, E etc, were all part of that same key signature. I suppose that it might be less confusing if I drop the letter for the mode names when I'm thinking in a modal context for a particular key.

[6StringSling]

On a side note, this also clears up the reason why I don't like to use harmonizer pedals/effects. While you can make some pretty cool sounding music at times, they transpose position but not in a modal context. In other words, if I'm playing in E major using the notes E, F#, G#, B, D# and I want to harmonize in G# Phrygian, I could choose to play it as a major or minor third with a pedal or effect but it wouldn't sound the same as playing the same "box" using the notes from G# Phrygian in the same position as E Ionian because the harmonizer doesn't shift position modally. In fact, if I used a harmonizer pedal dialed in as a minor third it would play back the wrong note if I bent E to F# because it would bend G# to Bb and Bb isn't part of G# Phrygian.

 

I knew a lot of the harmonizer pedal stuff I've played around with over the years never sounded quite right but now I can actually see why.

[tim_7string]

The new DigiTech harmonizer pedal apparently does follow what you are doing. It figures out what key you are in by the chords you are playing, so by the time you get to the solo, it will add the appropriate notes in that key for you.

 

The only problem comes in whenever you would play songs that go into a totally different key in the solo section.

[DarkHelmet]

ah yes, now I remember why I hated theory so much....

[TieDyedDevil]

For me, the least confusing way of understanding modes has been to think in terms of how the mode differs from the underlying major, minor or diminished scale. Here's an excerpt from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_mode :

 

 

Major modes The Ionian mode corresponds to the major scale. Scales in the Lydian mode are major scales with the fourth degree raised a semitone. The Mixolydian mode corresponds to the major scale with the seventh degree lowered a semitone. Minor modes The Aeolian mode is identical to the natural minor scale. The Dorian mode corresponds to the natural minor scale with the sixth degree raised a semitone. The Phrygian mode corresponds to the natural minor scale with the second degree lowered a semitone. Diminished mode The Locrian is neither a major nor a minor mode because, although its third scale degree is minor, the fifth degree is diminished instead of perfect. For this reason it is sometimes called a "diminished" scale, though in jazz theory this term is also applied to the octatonic scale. This interval is enharmonically equivalent to the augmented fourth found between scale-degrees 1 and 4 in the Lydian mode and is also referred to as the tritone.

 

[wades_keys]

 

Thanks guys. I guess I was assuming that for the Key of E that E Ionian, E Dorian, E etc, were all part of that same key signature. I suppose that it might be less confusing if I drop the letter for the mode names when I'm thinking in a modal context for a particular key.

 

Well, thinking about modes in that traditional way is limiting and makes it more difficult to actually use them in a given situation.

 

To me, the optimal way to be able to use a mode is to know that mode as a standalone scale. That way, if you are playing in say, A minor and want to try some A dorian instead of A pentatonic, you could do that without having to do the mental math needed to find the "key signature" of A dorian minor (which is G major).

 

What I like to do is compare minor scales to the natural minor mode, which requires that you know natural minor as a scale.

 

Then you'll see that dorian is the same as nat minor but that it has a major sixth instead of a minor sixth. Take it a step further and compare to melodic minor: melodic minor is just a major scale with a flat 3, and is identical to Dorian except Dorian uses the more musically "pleasing" common flat 7th, which is the characteristic tone of the Mixolydian mode.

 

And yeah, I actually know this stuff in near real time, what I just described. I didn't have to google or break out the paper or even stop and think. Not bragging at all: just saying that this is probably where you want to be, in order to be able to really use this stuff in improv situations. Of course this is the tip of the iceberg, and since I'm a bass player I don't have to deal with the complexities of modal concepts in soloing - in other words I have it pretty easy compared to lead guitarists that incorporate modes.

 

One thing that I do with modes is I'll create a bass line using one mode, then figure out the scale degrees used, then transpose it to another mode. That's real fun stuff and can really get you into the sound of the modes. Try to use "characteristic" and common notes like the fifth and the sixth and the third, as well as the 7th or flat 7 as the scale/mode requires.

[wades_keys]

Example:

Key of G. Playing a ii chord (A minor). So you think, "A Dorian", fits the chord, right?

 

Well not exactly. Recall that Dorian has 2 "characteristic" notes: the major 6 and the flat 7. That flat 7 "works" as it changes the tonality of the Am to Am7. But that F#? Hmm, not so much.

 

UNTIL you realize that this note is the third of the D chord (V chord in key of G). So then you look for a move that involves Aminor to D, and that Dorian note of F# can be used at or right near that move (to the D chord).

 

There are of course other possibilities, but I think you'll agree that an F# ringing out against an a minor chord ain't working musically....

 

Jimmy Page used A dorian a lot, using the F# note in the way I described, to set up the move to the V chord (D).

[6StringSling]

 

Example: Key of G. Playing a ii chord (A minor). So you think, "A Dorian", fits the chord, right? Well not exactly. Recall that Dorian has 2 "characteristic" notes: the major 6 and the flat 7. That flat 7 "works" as it changes the tonality of the Am to Am7. But that F#? Hmm, not so much. UNTIL you realize that this note is the third of the D chord (V chord in key of G). So then you look for a move that involves Aminor to D, and that Dorian note of F# can be used at or right near that move (to the D chord). There are of course other possibilities, but I think you'll agree that an F# ringing out against an a minor chord ain't working musically.... Jimmy Page used A dorian a lot, using the F# note in the way I described, to set up the move to the V chord (D).

 

What I've been starting to do it breaking out the triads from each scale and using them as a starting point for chord progressions.

 

Here's an example from a lullaby I'm working exported from GuitarPro: http://www.tachyonthunder.com/downloads/lullaby.mp3

[Lee Knight]

Interesting discussion guys. I started a thread over at The Lesson Loft regarding building chord progressions off of modes. You guys might find it interesting. Those guys over there are way smart...

 

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?2904705-Modal-Chord-Theory

 

^^^ Rabbit Hole ^^^

[wades_keys]

 

Interesting discussion guys. I started a thread over at The Lesson Loft regarding building chord progressions off of modes. You guys might find it interesting. Those guys over there are way smart... http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?2904705-Modal-Chord-Theory ^^^ Rabbit Hole ^^^

 

Will check it out.

 

I got into doing that back in the 80's because of an article Paul Gilbert wrote. A lot of people would dismiss this because of Paul's "shred" material, but in fact the article was all about modal chord work.

 

It's cool to play a "I, IV, V" using different modes, and that's basically what he was demonstrating. Definitely an exercise best done on paper (at least at first).

[wades_keys]

 

What I've been starting to do it breaking out the triads from each scale and using them as a starting point for chord progressions. Here's an example from a lullaby I'm working exported from GuitarPro: www.tachyonthunder.com/downloads /lullaby.mp3

 

That link doesn't work for me: I'm getting a 404 from your server. Would like to hear the tune.

 

If I get the time I might post a bassline I wrote using modal theory, including playing it over a different mode than the one I wound up with using, just to show the flavor difference. Actually I think I've posted it here before as a goof, will see if I can find it....

[PhilGould]

I have a PDF guide which would be helpful here, but it's too big for me to upload here. PM me if you want it, as the guide covers both modes and their use in composition.

[wades_keys]

I wanted to try and find a way to work with diminished tones as more than the usual "passing" or "transition" type of chord or tone. This is kind of tough because there is not much "tone center" or resolution there.

 

Anyway, the bassline is actually loosely based off Michael Jackson's "Beat IT". YEah. But then I added the diminished feel into the stew and the whole tonality changed. Sorta like a demented version of "Beat It".

 

For the piano chords, I stacked thirds on paper, essentially playing "Jazz chords". If I recall, theres some #9 in there somewhere: too bad I don't the original notes because I had all of the chords notated with names and notes at the time.

 

Anyway, hopefully this kinda shows a little of how I've messed around with theory and what is possible. The perf on this tune is very rough and loose: it is a scratch track for an "idea" that I still have not developed but hopefully will at some point.

 

http://hc.bloodyvelvet.com/files/222/diminished_capacity.mp3

[StratGuy22]

Here's modes in a quick 5 minute lesson.

 

1: I assume you know the difference between a whole step, and a half step. (W,H)

2: I assume you know how a piano is laid out

3: I assume you now know the names of the modes.

4: I assume you know all the key signatures

 

Sit at a piano, or print off a 2 octave set of piano keys.

 

The layout of modes correspond with piano white keys, starting on different white keys, 8 note scales.

 

For ionian mode, aka the Major scale, you would play from C to C, white keys.

WWHWWWH

 

Dorian, is like playing D to D on the white keys only

The key of D major NORMALLY has 2 sharps (F# & C#), but because we are going white key to white key, those 2 sharps are now lowered a half step.

 

So Dorian mode has a flat 3rd and flat 7th

 

Phrygian is like playing from E to E, on white keys.

The Key of E major has 4 sharps (F#, C#, G#, D#) so again, because of the white keys...

 

Phrygian mode has flat 2, flat 3, flat 6, flat 7

 

 

Etc. etc.

 

Picture the keyboard and you should be able to figure the rest out.

 

 

 

I once wrote out all 7 modes, fretboard finger patterns, 3 notes per string where possible, starting on the E & A string. I also used to practice 6 hours a day.

 

 

Now, not so much.

 

 

[Lee Knight]

Here's modes in a quick 5 minute lesson. 1: I assume you know the difference between a whole step, and a half step. (W,H) 2: I assume you know how a piano is laid out 3: I assume you now know the names of the modes. 4: I assume you know all the key signatures Sit at a piano, or print off a 2 octave set of piano keys. The layout of modes correspond with piano white keys, starting on different white keys, 8 note scales. For ionian mode, aka the Major scale, you would play from C to C, white keys. WWHWWWH Dorian, is like playing D to D on the white keys only The key of D major NORMALLY has 2 sharps (F# & C#), but because we are going white key to white key, those 2 sharps are now lowered a half step. So Dorian mode has a flat 3rd and flat 7th Phrygian is like playing from E to E, on white keys. The Key of E major has 4 sharps (F#, C#, G#, D#) so again, because of the white keys... Phrygian mode has flat 2, flat 3, flat 6, flat 7 Etc. etc. Picture the keyboard and you should be able to figure the rest out. I once wrote out all 7 modes, fretboard finger patterns, 3 notes per string where possible, starting on the E & A string. I also used to practice 6 hours a day. Now, not so much.

 

While that's true... it can be very misleading. We need to think of modes as being of one tonic note. While doing the white key trick let's us know the whole step half step pattern of any given mode, it is still more of a trick than anything else. What happens when you want a F# Dorian?

 

What matters, regarding modes, is the accompaniment, the harmony, the chords. Just slapping a Dorian mode over a minor key is fine and all, but it is a crap shoot. What really needs to happen is for songs, their melody, the harmony, to all be in the "key of" B Dorian, or C Phrygian, or what have you.

 

It's ironic that this thread comes up right as I've been digging into it over here...

 

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?2904705-Modal-Chord-Theory

[StratGuy22]

True. I told them how to find the modes.

 

Not how to use them.

 

 

 

 

 

F# Dorian:

Dorian pattern starting on the 2nd fret on the low E string.

 

 

I don't worry about or consciously choose the notes by name that I'm going to play...

[jamieb]

 

For me, the least confusing way of understanding modes has been to think in terms of how the mode differs from the underlying major, minor or diminished scale. Here's an excerpt from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_mode :

 

 

This is what I was thinking might make more sense. Decide if the mode is based on a major or minor scale (with the exception of the Locrian mode), then figure out what notes are altered.

 

It also helps to think instead of E Dorian mode, to think, "E in the Dorian mode". If I heard E Dorian, I might be inclined to think the E major scale, starting on the 2nd degree and ending on the 9th.

 

jamieb

+++++

[6StringSling]

 

That link doesn't work for me: I'm getting a 404 from your server. Would like to hear the tune.

 

Ok, apparently when you post a link if you don't have the "http://" it doesn't work. So once again here's a portion of that lullaby: http://www.tachyonthunder.com/downloads/lullaby.mp3 It's still a WIP, but I like where it's going so far.

 

To me, an entire song of lead harmonies wears thin so I've tried to mix it up by adding harmonized portions only in places where it feels "right" and let the acoustic rhythm hit harmony in other places.

 

What's helped a lot was creating a GuitarPro file of all the scales of the modes for the key of E and then playing them in different pairs to see what sounds good (to me) with what. Then of course breaking out the triads for E makes it easier to figure out which chords I want to use.

[wades_keys]

 

What really needs to happen is for songs, their melody, the harmony, to all be in the "key of" B Dorian, or C Phrygian, or what have you.

 

Just be careful using the term "key" (and I see you quoted it there).

 

I think a better way of describing what you mean is to:

Understand the "characteristic" notes of the given mode, and how those notes differ from their "usual" counterparts.

 

So back to Dorian, the real characteristic note there is the major sixth.

 

That note is also present in melodic minor. But melodic minor has a major 7 and dorian has a flat 7. So sometimes I see dorian as a melodic minor with a flat 7.

[Lee Knight]

Just be careful using the term "key" (and I see you quoted it there).

 

I keep hearing that from people who I trust and I keep not quite understanding what that means.