Interesting Post from a bar owners perspective

[SeniorBlues]

Acting professional:  If you're paying hobbiest wages that only weekend warriors will accept, don't be surprised when you get hobbiest attitudes regarding appearance, pacing of the show, etc.

Selling product:  We all know that profit from drinks (and perhaps food) determines the success of the evening, but a lot of guys in the blog discussion I linked to above felt that actually shilling from stage was cheesy and fell outside their job description.  

 

I still think that ultimately the point of all this is how much the establishment's reputation is the draw compared to the band's.

[Vito Corleone]

Re acting professional: this ties into my often-stated complaint about bands not stepping up their game and finding excuses to be lame or lazy. The great music and art scenes have been built by those who put out 100% and pushed boundaries regardless of the pay. In the cover band scenes, the bands that went on to the most success where those who acted like they deserved to be paid more instead of bitching about what they didnt make.

Somewhere along the way bands started taking the attitude of "they aren't paying me enough to be any better than I already am" and the whole scene started going downhill at the same time

We can debate "which came first" but the fact they happened at the same time isn't just a coincidence.

[Vito Corleone]

Re: selling product;

I'm sure a lot of guys DO feel shilling from stage is "cheezy". Half this forum is devoted to discussions with musicians who think this or that thing or song is cheezy and beneath their own assessment of their artistic integrity. To whom I will put rather bluntly: either get over yourself or prove to me your artistic value by getting out of doing gigs that require a certain business model. If you're too "good" to be selling beers by playing Brown Eyed Girl to drunk dancing girls, then why is the only gig you can get one that requires that?

[SeniorBlues]

We have debated this ad infinitum.  I'm merely pointing out that obviously if a club hires on the basis of price, it's going to create a market for more of the same. . . .  bands that don't aspire to anything beyond a couple cheap gigs a month at a dive bar.  What's sad is that those gigs now dominate the market.  My understanding of your argument is that you think that the reason there aren't a lot of large high end night spots for guys like us to play is a supply issue . . .  not enough bands doing the kinds of things you like to talk about.

I thinks it's lack of demand.

[SeniorBlues]

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guido61 wrote:

Re: selling product;

 

I'm sure a lot of guys DO feel shilling from stage is "cheezy". Half this forum is devoted to discussions with musicians who think this or that thing or song is cheezy and beneath their own assessment of their artistic integrity. To whom I will put rather bluntly: either get over yourself or prove to me your artistic value by getting out of doing gigs that require a certain business model. If you're too "good" to be selling beers by playing Brown Eyed Girl to drunk dancing girls, then why is the only gig you can get one that requires that?

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Dave, please don't go into auto-response mode.  Shilling from the stage refers to direct selling of the product, not playing music designed to keep people engaged.

[Vito Corleone]

Re auto response mode: my point is the attitude is the same and the situations related. The gig is the gig. Either you're willing to do what it takes to make the gig as successful as possible from the client's point of view or you think it's beneath you. Whether that's shilling drinks or playing certain songs or wearing a nice hat...it's all coming from the same place and, most often, the same people.

[Vito Corleone]

Re: supply and demand:

I think it's symbiotic. We've talked about the "downward spiral" many times. Many factors have played into it. As musicians we can only be responsible for what we do. I just see too many putting all the blame on the other aspects and not owning up to our own responsibility and in fact using the other aspects as an excuse for their own decline.

That gets us nowhere and only continues the cycle.

[SeniorBlues]

I understand the downward spiral concept.  From my perspective, I know there are things my current band could do that would make it more marketable, but that's relative.  Basically, I think we're worth a lot more than we're getting paid when we do bar gigs, and the greater commitment needs to come from the venue.

[Vito Corleone]

Unfortunately, there isn't much you can do about the commitment of the venue. All you can do is be the best you can possibly be and find the gigs where you can.

Personally I think the bar/club scene is a bit of a lost cause but some of that attitude no doubt comes from the fact that I've aged out of it regardless. If a vibrant live music club scene is to thrive, it needs to come from the younger acts to create it and make it happen.

[SpaceNorman]

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guido61 wrote:

Personally I think the bar/club scene is a bit of a lost cause ....

...but every now and then - you get taken by surprise!   Last night, we took our 8 piece "horn band" project into a nice little room that a couple of our side projects have been playing with some regularity .... and tore it up in a BIG way.   The sonic difference between the 4 piece "side project" configuration we've taken in the venue before - and the 8 piece "with horns" configuration we took in last night is HUGE.   The show band quality that the horn section brings to the mix was not lost on the crowd or management.   We had folks dancing in the aisles and kept the crowd longer than any of us have ever seen in that venue.  We still had 50 -60 people when we finished.

We walked out with our bar tab "forgiven" (granted it wasn't a big tab), a $100 tip - and 3 firm dates at a price that has last night's $100 tip baked in.   All this and a night of chicks diggin' me!   It don't get any better than that! 

[3shiftgtr]

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guido61 wrote:

In the cover band scenes, the bands that went on to the most success where those who acted like they deserved to be paid more instead of bitching about what they didnt make.

 

Somewhere along the way bands started taking the attitude of "they aren't paying me enough to be any better than I already am" and the whole scene started going downhill at the same time

 

 

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It's a contradiction in terms no? Isn't that the whole point of the OP's letter? {censored} everything else, Sell my damn booze. It's ok to suck, as long as you can sell my booze? Sell first, play later? Acording to the OP's letter, professionalism is selling the booze, and the rest is who gives a {censored}.

 

And it's the oldest quandry in business....do I do what it takes for a bottom line today, or do I do what's best to insure a bottom line tomorrow? The reason bands don't want to be lazy isn't to help sell booze, it's to keep people engaged, it's the bar's job to sell the booze. We can help, but it ain't our primary job.

 

And sometimes being professional means NOT doing what the OP is saying. Focusing on doing what it takes to make an engaging experience for the audience.

 

Case in point: local bunch of older guys (60's) that play all old school R&B and a smidge of 70's dance funk. The band is solid, and all old pros, and they really know how to work a set list.  The lead singer/front man is an energetic and charismatic fromnt man and good vocalist. He is also the author of the OP's letter's wet dream. He is constantly shilling from the stage. Talks over solos, goes out into the audience in the middle of songs and just gets in their faces with the "Hey, how are ya? You did know that for the next hour blah blah's are only a buck? Bring these guys a round!! And  this table will pay for it!! Hey....just kidding!" He's not over the top, but close. Probabally 3 or 4 times a set he shills something. Never a dull moment.

 

For a year their calendar was packed and they were getting good money. Then their audience started fading cuz they tired of his constant shtick. In their third year and they only do weddings and calls.  Their audience went from 100 to 150 the first year, consistantly wherever they played, down to about 30 now. But in that first year, several owners held these guys up as an example. 

 

But the bar owners had some of the best one night reciepts they ever had with them.  If people want a used car salesman to entertain them, they'd go to a used car lot.

 

So the take away is that the bar owners that are focused on tonights receipts and nothing else, and blame the band for it, as usual, are shooting themselves in the foot. And being professional in the terms you are talking about, has nothing to do with anything going downhill. YOu can step up your game all you want, if you aren't selling booze, then {censored} you acording to the OP's letter.

[Yer Blues]

I have decided to be happy doing what I do and am passionate about.  Anything extra is just gravy.  At the same time I realize I will never be in a big time party act.    Most of the musicians that inspire me are the same.  It is what it is... and I'm fine with that.

[Vito Corleone]

You agree with me that its incumbent upon the bands to find the best balance but still want to blame the club owners for putting the bands in a dilemma in the first place? Now THAT'S a contradiction'

It's only a dilemma for the bands who can't find the balance. Again, if they were taking care of their {censored}, there wouldn't be any barowners noticing that they don't shill for drinks or be paying attention to their headwear in the first place.

[3shiftgtr]

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guido61 wrote:

You agree with me that its incumbent upon the bands to find the best balance but still want to blame the club owners for putting the bands in a dilemma in the first place? Now THAT'S a contradiction'

It's only a dilemma for the bands who can't find the balance. Again, if they were taking care of their {censored}, there wouldn't be any barowners noticing that they don't shill for drinks or be paying attention to their headwear in the first place.

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What are you arguing, that we agree that you can't always listen and follow every peice of advice from a bar owner? That is my point. That is what creates the dillema. A band could do a good job, but says "Hey this guy who is paying us, wants us to do all this {censored} from the stage. We might should listen to him since he pays us." or they could say "Hey, let's not heed the advice of the person who is paying us money for playing, and do what we feel might be best for us in the long term." Hmmmm....which do you choose? It's a dillema innit? I'm not sure what you are arguing at this point.

 

I wish we had the old emoticon.

[Vito Corleone]

What I'm saying is that I think that saying "you can't always listen to this advice" is the wrong thing to say to those who need that advice the most.

The bands who shouldn't heed that advice aren't going to be asked to do that stuff in the first place. They've already got their act together and probably aren't even playing this dude's joint. And for those who need the advice the most are going to be the ones to hang on your every word as confirmation to continue wearing their bad hats.

[3shiftgtr]

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guido61 wrote:

What I'm saying is that I think that saying "you can't always listen to this advice" is the wrong thing to say to those who need that advice the most.

 

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Lord have mercy.

A band has a dillema...listen to the bar owner and do what he says, or do what is best for them in the long term.  It's a dillema.

 

Thanks for listening...you've been a great audience....be careful going home.

 

[Vito Corleone]

I'm sorry your friends band found it to be a dilemma. That was an interesting anecdote.

But it's pretty clear they either need to find a way to shill drinks that doesn't turn off their regular fan base, or find a new long term plan that doesn't involve such venues. This isn't rocket science.

[FitchFY]

I'm lucky enough to have two venues I regularly play where the bar owners totally get it. They want the bands to sell drinks, but they also only want good bands. They pay between $300-400 and that's about as high as they can afford.