New PA challenge

[Zeromus-X]

Originally posted by abzurd Yorkville EF500P ($2000 for 2) Yorkville LS800P ($1600 for 2)

 

 

All this time I've never even considered that route. Grab a fairly inexpensive mixer, some mics, and some cables, and you've got the PA ready to go. The specs look really nice as well (137dB max SPL on the subs?). I wonder if that'd be good enough for a really loud rock band in small places (50-200 capacity bars typically)...

[OneEng]

On this whole "Give me the best PA for "X" dollars" thing,

I think the thing that irritates me most about the questions isn't that people only want to spend "X" dollars, its that they expect to put together a PA that is way obove the dollar amount that they wish to spend.

This is likely do to the fact that people generally don't know what pro PA gear goes for. While it isn't uncommon at all for a guitarist to have 3K worth of guitar gear and more, everyone seems to think that spending that kind of money on the PA is shocking.

I used to play with a mackie 808M and a pair of Klipsch speakers. It was fantastic to be able to setup in 30min, but none of the places I play today would have hired me with the sound we could get from that rig.

In order to get a modern rock sound from the PA, you have to have lots of low end and that takes money. The drums have to be miced and you have to have some serious speakers and power amps.

While I agree that it would be nice to pack and move in 30min, I wouldn't get the same rush from playing without that HUGE thump from the kick drum .... and neither would the audience.

[strangegrey]

Originally posted by Audiopile Typically, that's about how long it takes myself and a helper to set-up or tear-down the rig: 1) 2 to 4 stacks of FOH, triamped 2) 24 ch. board. 3) 4 discreet biamped monitor mixes 4) patch in effects 5) mic the drums, vocals, and backline ... if it's a straight ahead deal. Of course, if the show is a tough load-in, or I gotta deal with an awful power situation... it's a different story.

 

 

Holy {censored},

 

30 minutes to all of that? It would take me 30 minutes just to move the 2-4 stacks of FOH gear......10 minutes to move it, and 20 to give myself a few shocks with the defibrilator! LOL

[tony k]

I would actually love to watch that Mark lol! If I could only get our "helpers" to be that organized I'd be in heaven.

[groove.77]

Re; overkill of equipment.

I was sitting with my bassist and close friend today at church. During the summer, the contemporary worship service moves outside to the Pavilion by the river. They have a decent system for this, four 15'' mid-highs and six 18'' subs.

I made a comment to him that we should start thinking about buying some subwoofers, since our cd sales have been going up and we've got a little extra cash.

He said, 'We're already too loud, people have been saying.'

I made the comment that we're not looking for loudness by purchasing additional speaker cabinets, we're looking for clarity and more low-end response.

It's always better, IMO, to have a very large system that's idling than a small system that's straining its guts out to fill the room.

Headroom, headroom, headroom.

[groove.77]

We usually get by fine in medium sized church sanctuaries. We have two JBL SF15 cabs on tripods, a pair of monitors, and a Behringer powered mixer.

We DI the bass, and keep it turned down. We just want to get a little tone out of it, no real thump yet.

We mic the guitar amp, which is placed offstage. We put it through the monitors.

We put a solitary SM57 on a boom just above and behind the drummer's head, again, not too much through the mains - this is just for recording purposes.

This system works okay, but we find ourselves running out of headroom with the master volume control still at about 11:00, so I'm trying to get my Crown Micro-tech running again.

And yeah, we don't get a thump from the kick drum, or from the bass. It leaves us sounding pretty wimpy.

[OneEng]

30Min! Wow.

From last night.

Tear down from my basement and packing into the Van --- 1.5 hr.
Drive to the gig (depends on how far it is. Last night 40Min)
Unpack and setup to sound check --- 1 hr.

Started at 3:00pm. Van packed at 4:30.
Arrived at gig ~6:00pm

Played the first song just a bit after 7:00pm.

I think our biggest problem is that I am the only one that really understands the PA so the other members aren't that quick to jump in and start plugging things in. Perhaps a little training?

My guitar rig takes me around 10min to setup all by itself including a level check.

[OneEng]

Let me apologize to jprintz31 that this thread got way off course... I guess I did kind of hog the ball here... and somehow ended up on a completely different court.

 

Certianly we are off the original thread topic; however, this is useful information for anyone that gigs!

 

I have a 16 channel mixer. This means that I have 32 connections to make just to get the snake hooked up and something plugged into it.

 

Add the mic's on the other end of that and we are looking at 48.

 

Add 2 sends on each side and we are at 52.

 

I biamp, so there are 4 speaker connections (x2) and we are at 60.

 

The in-ear system is a wired furman setup. 2 lines out of the pa (x2), 2 lines daisey chained around the stage (x2) for 4 players is a total of 10 more connections. Now we are at 70.

 

We have around 4 extension cords and an equal number of plug expansions for them. Say around 10 connections making 80.

 

Lights have a foot controller that has connections to the snake (line out on the kick for trigger). Another 2 up to 82.

 

Setup 2 guitar rigs with efx, a bass and the drum kit and we are ready to sound check. As I stated, around 1.5Hrs to tear down, and 1Hr to put it back up.

 

I was originally attracted to the Furman system IEM because of the low cost; however, I can see now writing this that I have sacrificed some setup time. Wireless would have been very useful. I think that since I have no wedges, I am not that far off in complexity from a standard system though, and everyone has their own mix and on stage mixer.

 

I have made a snake for the drum kit that goes to the snake. Perhaps I could do the same for the other mic's. Can you think of anything else that may help the setup and tear down time?

[agedhorse]

 

Originally posted by SoundtechSD We usually get by fine in medium sized church sanctuaries. We have two JBL SF15 cabs on tripods, a pair of monitors, and a Behringer powered mixer. We DI the bass, and keep it turned down. We just want to get a little tone out of it, no real thump yet. We mic the guitar amp, which is placed offstage. We put it through the monitors. We put a solitary SM57 on a boom just above and behind the drummer's head, again, not too much through the mains - this is just for recording purposes. This system works okay, but we find ourselves running out of headroom with the master volume control still at about 11:00, so I'm trying to get my Crown Micro-tech running again. And yeah, we don't get a thump from the kick drum, or from the bass. It leaves us sounding pretty wimpy.

 

How do you expect to get thump from the kick drum mic'ing it from behind the drummer's head? Also, it's not very likely with the rest of the system you have anyway.

[madjack]

Originally posted by Audiopile Of course mass disconnects on your board fantails makes a considerable difference, but it's big bucks. That sort of depends on the user. Most places I've lived have had a business in the area which specializes in liquidation of electronic overruns and used parts. I picked up several military spec Amphenol connectors and several multi-pins of other types for less than $3-4 each and wired my own mass disconnects. Of course this requires some planning of cable routes and some soldering skills. One of the biggest reasons I use a power distro almost exclusively is it really cuts down on the BS of tracking down enough power... and cuts way down on the extension cords strung everywhere. 1 50A/220 plug, a length of heavy trunk and there, the power situation is solved. A major problem with this in the clubs in which I play is that none of them have 220 available. I do carry a small distro center but rarely get to use it. I usually have to resort to the extension cord setup. I've set things up with my rig so as many cables as possible ride with the item that uses the cables (kind of like Turbosound speakers). It really helps cut down on mistakes and confusion... especially on the prep side, knowing what cables are always in what racks. I purposely spec my amp racks oversized so there's a spot in the bottom for the respective speaker cables that go with that rack. Same with the boards and effects racks. My amp racks are set-up to drive 2 stacks. Take the lid off and right there are all the cables I need. This eliminates the endless pawing through cable trunks trying to find some cords about the right length... and it's really nice plugging in 5KW of speakers without taking more than a couple of steps. Literally, if the stacks and amp racks are in-place, I can have a 10KW system wired and powered in less than 3 minutes (including a minute to walk across stage and sip my Dr. Pepper)... without any question that everything is plugged in exactly the way it should be.

 

Good advice. I have a small system since most of the places I play are 50-150 seat venues. I use a pair of Yorkville PS210P subs (2x10"@600 watts ea.) and a pair of EV SX 200 tops driven by a Soundtech amp (cabs 1x12"and 1x1" horn @ 300 watts, amp 350 p/side @8 ohms). I have 4 separate monitor mixes, each driving one wedge @300 watts. Since I mix from onstage, I have a drop box on a short (10') snake on a multipin connector. I screw that into the mix rack and let the band plug into their labelled channels in the box. I have a short multipin jumper from the mix rack to the amp rack. Once the gear is in the building, setup for the FOH takes about 10 minutes. Lights are 16 par 56s on bars. Place the bars on the stands, hang a pack on each stand, plug the lights into the packs, daisy-chain mic cords from the foot controller through the packs, plug in the two extension cords powering the packs, aim the lights. Set-up time for lights is about 15 minutes.

One of the nice things about a small system is that I can power the entire band (4-piece: drums, trapkat driving small rack w/D4 & D5 brains; bass, 150 watt SS head driving 4x10 cab; guitar, 100W Marshall combo driving 4x12 cab & 40W tube combo; keys, midi controller driving rack mod and small synth) out of two 20amp circuits; one for the band and one for the lights. (The drums and keys don't have backline amps.)

[groove.77]

Originally posted by agedhorse How do you expect to get thump from the kick drum mic'ing it from behind the drummer's head? Also, it's not very likely with the rest of the system you have anyway.

 

 

As I said - it's just for recording purposes. We record every gig live to minidisc, out of the line out jacks of the mixer. We found that relying on the vocal and guitar mics to pick up the drums wasn't working, the drums weren't loud enough on the recording. So, we just put a mic above and behind the drummer's head. We don't turn it up very loud, again, it's not for reinforcement, it's just so that the drums aren't rendered inaudible everytime I step between them and my vocal mic.

 

I said we don't get a thump from the kick drum and bass because we don't. Not that we've tried, and don't, but we just don't even try. I know the limitations of my system all too well.

[jprintz31]

Originally posted by Audiopile Let me apologize to jprintz31 that this thread got way off course... I guess I did kind of hog the ball here... and somehow ended up on a completely different court.

Don't apologize. I have learned more from this thread than I have searching through archives for the last two months. So it's a little off track. The information has been very good; it has helped give me ideas how we could improve our system instead of replacing our system, and it has helped me figure out better ways of setting up the system.

Please continue with the education.

[Tommy Tune]

I have a powered mixer but I've recently started to use my stereo outs with an external amp when I need a little more for the mains. It works well for smaller venues..............let's say 100 to 150 people. Any more than that it's time to bulk up. By the way, here's an interesting link for you, Mark. http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/world/newsid_1725000/1725334.stm

[jprintz31]

So here is a question....

Is it better to have 2 400W subs per side or 1 800W sub per side? Is there even a difference?

Another,

Suppose I go with 2 400W subs per side, and I currently have 15" mains (200W RMS), is it better to get a second set of 12's or 15's, or should I sell the 15's and go with more powerful 15's?

[tlbonehead]

Originally posted by jprintz31 So here is a question.... Is it better to have 2 400W subs per side or 1 800W sub per side? Is there even a difference? Another, Suppose I go with 2 400W subs per side, and I currently have 15" mains (200W RMS), is it better to get a second set of 12's or 15's, or should I sell the 15's and go with more powerful 15's?

No reason why you can't use mid/high cabs rated at 200 watts RMS along with subs rated at 400 watts RMS.