Members flanc Posted October 13, 2003 Members Share Posted October 13, 2003 We replaced our drummer this week with a drummer who sings (old drummer was not mic'ed) and our key's player (my wife) added a second synth. Before this, I was maxed out on channels on my Mackie 1604vlz; now, I have 18 sources trying to go into a 16 channel mixer....not gonna work. After some thought, I figured I have a few options: 1. By an inexpensive 1RU line mixer and bring the 2 keys, my wifes guitar (direct) and a sampler we have into it. Connect the line mixer to my 1604vlz through a channel (as opposed to aux return) so I can put the collective slave mix into the monitor mixes. I'm looking for recommendations on a good line mixer to fit this application. Pro's:-inexpesive-only uses 1(or2) rack spacesCon's:-I can only add the whole sub-mix to the monitor mixes (can't put more keyboard 1 into monitor mix 2....has to be all the sub-mix) 2. Sell the Mackie and by something with more channels. The problem is the new mixer would also need it to be rack mounted because I often run the sound myself from the stage and I like everything racked and wired ahead of time (one less thing to do at the show). I also don't know what rack mount mixer has more channels (I'd need at least two more). Pro's:-Most flexible routing solution-efficient use of rack space con's:-I don't know of a rack mixer with more channels-expensive 3. Sub-mix the drums off an inexpensive rack mixer (behringer ?) with 6 to 8 mic pre-amps. Pro's:- Fairly cheapCon's:-takes up a lot more rack real estate-can only add the whole drum sub-mix to a monitor mix....can not add more kick or snare to monitor mix 2 (for example) Any thoughts? I'm leaning toward option 1 (line mixer) but would prefer option 2 if I could find an affordable rack mounted mixer that would solve my problem. Thanks, Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J the D Posted October 13, 2003 Members Share Posted October 13, 2003 I have an 8 channel Behringer that does mostly submix dity for the drums. It works great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members grimaila Posted October 13, 2003 Members Share Posted October 13, 2003 I use a Rolls RM203X Stereo Line Mixer in my keyboard setup. I costs about $200 and works great! I have two stereo synths and three stereo modules. I send the stereo submix out of the Rolls to my keyboard amp (KC-500) and then run balanced outs to the snake to the main board (also a Mackie 1604VLZ). Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members swedishcubsfan Posted October 13, 2003 Members Share Posted October 13, 2003 i would take option 3 or option 2, in that order Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ashivraj Posted October 13, 2003 Members Share Posted October 13, 2003 i'd definitely pick option 3. a lot of bands submix drums with a smaller mixer, and you shouldnt need any drums in the mons (unless you're using IEMs, and even then!). if you STILL need drums in the mix, submix with a small mixer, and hopefully this smaller mixer has at least one aux send (or mebbe FX send) that you can use to create a basic drum mix - mebbe just kick and snare - which you can send down the snake into your main mixer. so instead of using 4-8 channels of your main mixer for drums, you'll end up using only two - three if you send a sub-submix (the kick/snare thing). another suggestion is to make use of the stereo aux returns. i mean, probably in conjunction with above. if you can live with the limited routing options, then by all means. they take line-level inputs (bal/unbal), so make sure you're not running a pair of drum OHs into them (you probably already knew that, but i remember a post a while back about a guy who was doing just that). AS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators MrKnobs Posted October 14, 2003 Moderators Share Posted October 14, 2003 You can easily cut back to 16 channels. Not sure exactly how, but if you tell me what's in each channel I'll make suggestions. First idea is that keyboardists need to mix their own stuff and send one feed, not two. Are you running anything in stereo? How many mikes on the drums? Using board channels for FX returns? For a CD or tape player? Terry D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flanc Posted October 14, 2003 Author Members Share Posted October 14, 2003 1. Vocal lead male (me)2. Vocal lead female 3. backup vocal bass player4. backup vocal drummer5. Sampler6. My guitar (Jackson)7. My Acoustic guitar direct8. Keyboardists guitar (she plays guitar on a 10 songs or so)9. Keyboard 110. keyboard 211.Bass12. Rack tom Stage Right13. Rack tom Stage Left14. Floor Tom15. Hi Hat16. Snare17. Kick18. Wireless mic used by lead singer(whichever one) when they are not tethered to instrument. I guess I could sub-mix key1, key2 and sampler into one channel or sub mix the drums and free up quite a few channels. Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators MrKnobs Posted October 14, 2003 Moderators Share Posted October 14, 2003 Oh goodness, lots of choices: (1) Ditch the wireless mike if it's not doing anything too important for you. I hate those things, batteries always going out at the wrong time, someone always pointing one at a monitor or stepping in front of the mains, etc.... (2) Or... lose one of the fixed mikes and just put the wireless in a clip and use it for both purposes. (3) What is the sampler used for? Could the keyboardist control it and run a submix with both keys in it? If so, problem solved right there. (4) Does your wife play an acoustic or an electric? Does she use an amp? Maybe the guitar could plug into her keyboard mixer, depending on what she uses it for. Or maybe not, of course. (5) As I mentioned before, the keys could both be mixed and fed to the same channel, even if the sampler or guitar can't. (6) Are you sure you need the hat mike? The snare mike usually picks up the hat pretty well. You could position it accordingly. (7) You could run a single mike positioned between the two rack toms, I do that sometimes and it sounds pretty good. I often run drums with just four mikes, depending on the type of music and how loud it gets on stage. (8) I wouldn't be happy with 5 vocal mikes open all the time, when no one is using them, and no one at the soundboard to mute them. I think your best bet is getting a simple little mixer for the keys and sampler. Terry D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members grimaila Posted October 14, 2003 Members Share Posted October 14, 2003 Originally posted by MrKnobs Oh goodness, lots of choices:(8) I wouldn't be happy with 5 vocal mikes open all the time, when no one is using them, and no one at the soundboard to mute them.Terry D. Oh man... This very true, as I can attest to... Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tony k Posted October 14, 2003 Members Share Posted October 14, 2003 I agree. I usually have only 2 or 3 vocal mics open at one time. Though if you're hell bent on having all that and more the Crest XR20 has 20 channels and is rack mountable. Of course it is more expensive than Mackie or a MixWiz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J Kylez Posted October 14, 2003 Members Share Posted October 14, 2003 Put both keys through one DI box. Split both those rack toms into 1 channel. Cheap fix. Done. The hi-hat mic may not be necessary either as mentioned earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted October 14, 2003 CMS Author Share Posted October 14, 2003 Similar choice to J Kylez: One mic for both rack toms. Run your two guitars with one channel. Yeah, you have to plug in and someone has to adjust the mix, but it's doable. The other possibility is to use an extra mixer, but don't use it specifically for drums or specifically for keyboards. In other words, figure out what submixes can be grouped together for monitor purposes, and use the submixer for those, leaving the main mixer for the channels that need monitor assignment flexibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flanc Posted October 14, 2003 Author Members Share Posted October 14, 2003 What about this little passive Rolls line mixer? I could sub mix my wifes two keyboards and perhaps her guitar (direct via Boss GT-3). Anyone have any experience with one of these? It's only $23 and doesn't require power. I could velcro the thing to her keyboard stand and feed it to a single DI into the snake. http://www.mwsound.com/commerce/ItemView.cfm?INV_ID=3036 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J Kylez Posted October 14, 2003 Members Share Posted October 14, 2003 Originally posted by flanc What about this little passive Rolls line mixer? I could sub mix my wifes two keyboards and perhaps her guitar (direct via Boss GT-3). Anyone have any experience with one of these? It's only $23 and doesn't require power. I could velcro the thing to her keyboard stand and feed it to a single DI into the snake.http://www.mwsound.com/commerce/ItemView.cfm?INV_ID=3036 If you going to do that why not just go straight from both boards into one direct box? You control your blend of the 2 boards from the volume controls on the keyboards. Either way your just adjusting something. Why add another piece of gear to the chain if you don't have to? I've done 2 boards through 1 DI many times. It works fine for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators MrKnobs Posted October 14, 2003 Moderators Share Posted October 14, 2003 Originally posted by J Kylez If you going to do that why not just go straight from both boards into one direct box? You control your blend of the 2 boards from the volume controls on the keyboards. Either way your just adjusting something. Why add another piece of gear to the chain if you don't have to?I've done 2 boards through 1 DI many times. It works fine for me. You connected two keyboard outs into parallel jacks on a single DI? Strictly speaking, connecting two outputs together without at least a resistor network is a little risky. Terry D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flanc Posted October 14, 2003 Author Members Share Posted October 14, 2003 What DI box do you use that has 2 inputs and one output? Do you just use a standard DI that has one input and a split output in reverse? Sounds more like a combiner..... The more simplistic the solution...the better! I'll do some research but real world tested solutions are appreciated! Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Michael W Nelso Posted October 14, 2003 Members Share Posted October 14, 2003 Flanc, Although not a cheap solution but a very good one for me has been to use my Mackie 808S as a drum sub mixer and then run mono or stereo line outs to my main mixer. The eight channels of the 808S allow me to configure and EQ each of my individual drums to my taste AND have two 450 watt amps(450@4 ohms per channel for monitors! Another benefit of using the 808S is in rehearsals. I don't have to bring the larger mixer-rack and amps to rehearsals... Again, not a cheap suggestion, but might have have long term benefits. There are several good powered mixers available both new and used. Food for thought... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators MrKnobs Posted October 15, 2003 Moderators Share Posted October 15, 2003 Originally posted by flanc What DI box do you use that has 2 inputs and one output? Do you just use a standard DI that has one input and a split output in reverse? Sounds more like a combiner.....The more simplistic the solution...the better! I'll do some research but real world tested solutions are appreciated!Frank I dunno about him, but I have some little boxes that accept two 1/4" inputs and output either a combined 1/4" out or an XLR out. The important feature is they have a couple of resistors to isolate the inputs from each other. Terry D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flanc Posted October 15, 2003 Author Members Share Posted October 15, 2003 That little box sounds good....any details? Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members readybeans Posted October 15, 2003 Members Share Posted October 15, 2003 listen to terry (mrknobs) he is the resident expert extrordinaire In the 'beans i required the keyboard player and the drummer to buy their own mini-mixers (mackie 1202's) to submix their own stuff. They both thanked me later cause every pro musician needs his/her own mixer for LOTS of reasons... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators MrKnobs Posted October 15, 2003 Moderators Share Posted October 15, 2003 Originally posted by flanc That little box sounds good....any details?Frank Well, mine were made from scratch but if I had to do it again, I think I'd start with a store-bought passive DI, add a second 1/4" input jack, and solder a pair of 10k resistors going from the tips of each jack to each other, with the feed to the impedance matching transformer hooked to the resistor junction. Or you could just make it from scratch, everything you need is at Radio Shack, depending on how picky you are about transformers. Terry D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J Kylez Posted October 15, 2003 Members Share Posted October 15, 2003 Originally posted by MrKnobs Well, mine were made from scratch but if I had to do it again, I think I'd start with a store-bought passive DI, add a second 1/4" input jack, and solder a pair of 10k resistors going from the tips of each jack to each other, with the feed to the impedance matching transformer hooked to the resistor junction.Or you could just make it from scratch, everything you need is at Radio Shack, depending on how picky you are about transformers.Terry D. There are resistance mixers which basically do the same thing explained here when used in conjunction with a DI box. I have seen them with 4 inputs to 1 output. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flanc Posted October 15, 2003 Author Members Share Posted October 15, 2003 I posted this earlier in the thread: What about this little passive Rolls line mixer? I could sub mix my wifes two keyboards and perhaps her guitar (direct via Boss GT-3). Anyone have any experience with one of these? It's only $23 and doesn't require power. I could velcro the thing to her keyboard stand and feed it to a single DI into the snake. http://www.mwsound.com/commerce/ItemView.cfm?INV_ID=3036 Sounds like a winner and will take the key's down to one channel. I'll use a mic combiner to knock down the to rack Tom's to one. I've been looking at the Crest XR20 and I've heard that is a really great small format mixer. If I thought my sound would increase by a more than subtle difference, I'd bite the bullet and get one. I'm just not conviced it would be a $1600 increase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted October 15, 2003 Members Share Posted October 15, 2003 Originally posted by flanc That little box sounds good....any details?Frank Personally,I would have the drummer submix his/her drums. We've done that for a couple years now and it works great. He has his own rack with a Behringer MX2004 and EQ's,comps,gates,effects,etc and all we do is run a pair of patch cables to a stereo channel on my main board. Very simple,actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators MrKnobs Posted October 15, 2003 Moderators Share Posted October 15, 2003 Originally posted by tlbonehead Personally,I would have the drummer submix his/her drums. We've done that for a couple years now and it works great. He has his own rack with a Behringer MX2004 and EQ's,comps,gates,effects,etc and all we do is run a pair of patch cables to a stereo channel on my main board. Very simple,actually. Man, I'd have to disagree with that. Tlbonehead's drummer is pretty special indeed if he can correctly mix his drums from the stage. Generally in small clubs the snare cracks so loud and the cymbals are picked up so well in the vocal mikes they need little or no boosts on their sliders. The other drums often need "tone shaping" where what is amplified through the mains is a heavily EQ'd version of the drum that would sound awful by itself but adds together with the stage sound of the drum to make a good tone. No way a drummer (or anyone else) could do that from the stage, without hearing what's out front. Plus, many drummers have a very strange idea of what drums are supposed to sound like in a mix! Now, if the drummer in question is using V-Drums, most of my above objections go away. Terry D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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