Members bikehorn Posted November 2, 2003 Members Share Posted November 2, 2003 i have recently acquired a bluepirnt for a W-style folded-horn built by Fender between 1970-75. it was a huge beast weighing 126 lbs and had a single 4 ohm, 400 watt Vega 18" driver in there. i really like this cabinet design and would like to build it, but it's not exactly easy to find this speaker anywhere. hell, i can hardly find a picture of it, or the specifications. pictures of the cabinet itself, however, are plentiful the cabinet was a matchup for the 400 PS, an 84 pound beast of a 435 watt bass amp built during 1970-75(obviously enough). well anyway, i want the amp too but i think i'll build the cabinet first. my question is this: i can't find the Vega and i don't even plan to. there are, however lots of other high quality 18" speakers out there. One that has caught my attention is the Celestion G18Q-400, an 8 ohm 400 watt electric bass/PA speaker. it's hard to find but i found one. it doesn't look like it's going anywhere since most people aren't aware of it, so i think the place that has it will have it for a long time. anyway, since the physics of a folded horn are more complicated that a regular old direct-radiating design, will it be okay to simply put this speaker in the W? i emailed Celestion's Dr. Decibel and he gave me a nice bit of info on the speaker as well as the specifications. i asked him about whether it would work okay in a W bin and he said that based on its characteristics, it would be good in a W bin. i'm not sure though, if he was talking about a W designed around that speaker, or any old W. help please. thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Scodiddly Posted November 2, 2003 Members Share Posted November 2, 2003 Ah yes, Fender's half-assed answer to the Ampeg SVT. You actually had an amp head with THREE power amps, and you really only got full power if you had three of those huge cabinets. You might look for plans for the old 70's EV "Eliminator" cabinets; they used a folded horn around a 15" driver, and I think the "Sentry IV" used a pair of 12" drivers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bikehorn Posted November 2, 2003 Author Members Share Posted November 2, 2003 Originally posted by Scodiddly Ah yes, Fender's half-assed answer to the Ampeg SVT. You actually had an amp head with THREE power amps, and you really only got full power if you had three of those huge cabinets.You might look for plans for the old 70's EV "Eliminator" cabinets; they used a folded horn around a 15" driver, and I think the "Sentry IV" used a pair of 12" drivers. hey man, people i've talked to said it has a completely different character compared to the SVT. besides, you don't HAVE to use 3 folded horns... anyway, i'll check out the Eliminator. is it a W design as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted November 2, 2003 Members Share Posted November 2, 2003 My experience??? Not a very suitable design, and certainly not very articulate for today's bass styles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members madjack Posted November 3, 2003 Members Share Posted November 3, 2003 Originally posted by Scodiddly Ah yes, Fender's half-assed answer to the Ampeg SVT. You actually had an amp head with THREE power amps, and you really only got full power if you had three of those huge cabinets.You might look for plans for the old 70's EV "Eliminator" cabinets; they used a folded horn around a 15" driver, and I think the "Sentry IV" used a pair of 12" drivers. Not so much an answer to the SVT but rather to the Acoustic 371; an 18" folded horn design that was very popular in the early 70s, particularly when Chris Squire used one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted November 3, 2003 Members Share Posted November 3, 2003 Originally posted by madjack Not so much an answer to the SVT but rather to the Acoustic 371; an 18" folded horn design that was very popular in the early 70s, particularly when Chris Squire used one. Yep,the 371 was definitely popular with the higher-end gigging bands. That cab and the old Cerwin Vega folded horn that also had a front-loaded 10-12" driver. Anyway,I wouldn't waste my time building this particular cab either. I've built a number of different folded horns in my day,W and e style. I'd check out some of the more successful FH designs if you really want to build a horn cab. E-V still probably has plans for the Eliminator and the dual 12" Sentry,and they also had plans for a tall,skinny dual 15" design. Another nice sounding W-bin that might be worth copying is the Sonic 18W,which is actually a vented W design. Not sure how you decide on proper venting with a folded horn design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bikehorn Posted November 3, 2003 Author Members Share Posted November 3, 2003 Originally posted by agedhorse My experience??? Not a very suitable design, and certainly not very articulate for today's bass styles. i'm all about the old-school 70's style bass. besides, i'll have a 2x8" box on top for articulation. in any case, what problems might one have putting a speaker like this in there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted November 3, 2003 Members Share Posted November 3, 2003 I have a set of prints (5 sheets!) for the EV 2 x 15" W box. That was a very good box for the time... still is if you don't mind 200 lbs and something the size of a refrigerator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted November 3, 2003 Members Share Posted November 3, 2003 Originally posted by Audiopile Most (well all) W bins I've seen are not ported.I think the Fender cab in question here might be more accurately classed as an "M" bin... dunno though.You might try to find an old Sunn 918 speaker, which was similar (if not maybe the same exact speaker) as the CV speaker you seek.Another to seek might be a Hartley 215. http://www.sonicspeaker.com/18w.htm This is the model I am most familiar with. I've used a pair/side many times in the past and they used to be a pretty popular sub with the gigging bands in my area in the past. I also recall Gollehon and others making vented W-designs in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rhino bucket Posted November 3, 2003 Members Share Posted November 3, 2003 there was a thread about a cerwin vega 18" driver being priced really low at PSSL awhile back. i think it was suppose to be the driver from one of their earthquake horn cabs. i was wanting to build some horn cabs a few years ago and finally got tired of looking for plans, all of the places i knew of in the 80's that had plans weren't around anymore. electro voice might be worth contacting they were allways good about providing cabinet info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted November 3, 2003 Members Share Posted November 3, 2003 Originally posted by rhino bucket there was a thread about a cerwin vega 18" driver being priced really low at PSSL awhile back. i think it was suppose to be the driver from one of their earthquake horn cabs. i was wanting to build some horn cabs a few years ago and finally got tired of looking for plans, all of the places i knew of in the 80's that had plans weren't around anymore. electro voice might be worth contacting they were allways good about providing cabinet info. Yep,they still have the 189SE? for $99. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bikehorn Posted November 3, 2003 Author Members Share Posted November 3, 2003 well, since the Fender is lighter than the other designs by at least 30 pounds, i guess i'll be building it. the question still remains: what problems might present themselves if you load a speaker into a horn that wasn't designed around the speaker? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bikehorn Posted November 3, 2003 Author Members Share Posted November 3, 2003 just found out that the original speaker in the Fender was a Cerwin-Vega L 187F Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted November 3, 2003 Members Share Posted November 3, 2003 Originally posted by bikehorn well, since the Fender is lighter than the other designs by at least 30 pounds, i guess i'll be building it. the question still remains:what problems might present themselves if you load a speaker into a horn that wasn't designed around the speaker? What are the dimensions? Perhaps it is lighter because the cab is a lot shallower than other newer designs. Shallower cab probably equals shorter horn,which in turn equals poorer or less low frequency response. Also,the original driver may have been lighter-duty also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bikehorn Posted November 3, 2003 Author Members Share Posted November 3, 2003 Originally posted by tlbonehead What are the dimensions? Perhaps it is lighter because the cab is a lot shallower than other newer designs. Shallower cab probably equals shorter horn,which in turn equals poorer or less low frequency response. Also,the original driver may have been lighter-duty also. it is about 47" tall, 23" and change deep. the speaker chamber is 15" deep and it is not ported. the original driver was a Cerwin Vega L 187F Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RickJ Posted November 3, 2003 Members Share Posted November 3, 2003 Deja Vu to 1977! The controversy over W cabs versus scoops versus front-loaded is reopened! If you plan to use the W cab with front-loaded 8's for articulation, know that they are not in any way compatible. The 8's will take a direct path to your ears, while the folded horn will take some time for the wave to develop and get there. That means you'll have to delay the 8's or the bottom will seem "soft" as you play through the rig. That delay can be distracting. Further, the W-cab is designed so the bass wave (which tops off at 150Hz or so) fully develops outside the cabinet -- in the neighborhood of 14 to 28 feet from the source. If you're standing on stage in front of that behemoth, you won't hear enough bottom, but you'll be triggering bowel movements in those who are standing in front of the stage. Further yet ... the W-cab is not a vertical design. In order to have the most effectiveness, it must be horizontally coupled to a planar surface (usually the floor). If it's vertical, 1/2 of the perfect waveform that leaves the cabinet simply bounces off the floor and causes all kinds of phase issues with that portion of the wave that leaves the top of the cab. It seemed like a good idea at the time, but that was more than 30 years ago. In short -- it's a waste of time, money and materials to build that thing. If you're "all about" that 70's tone, consider that Squire switched to the SVT when it came out. Prior to that, his "signature" lots-of-high-end tone was due to the fact that his electronics were running direct to the mixing console, but he wasn't hearing any high end on stage from that cabinet. IMO, you'll have better reproduction of the late 60's/early 70's tone by rolling off the mids and highs on any one of a number of today's more efficient designs of amp/cabs. And you MUST play a Gibson EB -- or better yet -- a Hofner. No Rick's or Fenders allowed ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted November 3, 2003 Members Share Posted November 3, 2003 Originally posted by RickJ Deja Vu to 1977! The controversy over W cabs versus scoops versus front-loaded is reopened! If you plan to use the W cab with front-loaded 8's for articulation, know that they are not in any way compatible. The 8's will take a direct path to your ears, while the folded horn will take some time for the wave to develop and get there. That means you'll have to delay the 8's or the bottom will seem "soft" as you play through the rig. That delay can be distracting. Further, the W-cab is designed so the bass wave (which tops off at 150Hz or so) fully develops outside the cabinet -- in the neighborhood of 14 to 28 feet from the source. If you're standing on stage in front of that behemoth, you won't hear enough bottom, but you'll be triggering bowel movements in those who are standing in front of the stage. Further yet ... the W-cab is not a vertical design. In order to have the most effectiveness, it must be horizontally coupled to a planar surface (usually the floor). Otherwise 1/2 of the perfect waveform that leaves the cabinet simply bounces off the floor and causes all kinds of phase issues with that portion of the wave that leaves the top of the cab. It seemed like a good idea at the time, but that was more than 30 years ago. In short -- it's a waste of time, money and materials to build that thing. If you're "all about" that 70's tone, consider that Squire switched to the SVT when it came out. IMO, you'll have better reproduction of the 70's tone by rolling off the mids and highs on any one of a number of today's more efficient designs of amp/cabs. And you MUST play a Rick -- or better yet -- a Hofner. No Fenders allowed ... I always set my 18W's down on their side when I used them for subs,one on top of the other. They sounded better that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bikehorn Posted November 4, 2003 Author Members Share Posted November 4, 2003 aw man, this isn't what i wanted to hear...now i'm sad:( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members madjack Posted November 4, 2003 Members Share Posted November 4, 2003 Originally posted by RickJ And you MUST play a Gibson EB -- or better yet -- a Hofner. No Rick's or Fenders allowed ... Part of Squire's signature sound in the early 70s was that he used a Rick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bikehorn Posted November 4, 2003 Author Members Share Posted November 4, 2003 Originally posted by bikehorn the question still remains: what problems might present themselves if you load a speaker into a horn that wasn't designed around the speaker? i would really appreciate an answer to this instead of a conversation about Chris Squire's sound in the 70's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted November 4, 2003 Members Share Posted November 4, 2003 Originally posted by bikehorn i would really appreciate an answer to this instead of a conversation about Chris Squire's sound in the 70's You've gotten a lot of answers,but you are still going to build the cab. Only one way to find out. BTW,I've used e and W style FH cabs swapping out different models and brands of drivers and they usually sounded decent if the box itself was a good design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bikehorn Posted November 4, 2003 Author Members Share Posted November 4, 2003 Originally posted by tlbonehead BTW,I've used e and W style FH cabs swapping out different models and brands of drivers and they usually sounded decent if the box itself was a good design. thanks a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RickJ Posted November 5, 2003 Members Share Posted November 5, 2003 In most cases, you can't just swap drivers from one cabinet into another. You can't arbitrarily plop any old driver into any old cabinet. Every cabinet is designed to work with a particular driver. If you want to build that box, you'll probably have to modify its properties to fit the specific driver that you want to use. Or, find a driver that has specs that exactly match the original driver. There are infinite resources on the web that will introduce you to the science of cabinet building. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Scodiddly Posted November 5, 2003 Members Share Posted November 5, 2003 Actually I think horns a quite bit less fussy about driver matching than ported, front-loaded cabinets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted November 5, 2003 Members Share Posted November 5, 2003 Horns are generally less fussy, but the horn geometry has a lot to do with the sound also. It's a double edged sward. One thing that is important, which Rick's comments address is that under high power levels, the driver/horn interaction is magnified and "issues" between them can become very important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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