Members Rickr Posted July 13, 2004 Members Share Posted July 13, 2004 Ok, did a gig a my most hated place this past weekend. long narrow l-shaped room. The band is stuck back at the end of one of the legs. We've played this place a few times, and everytime feedback is an issue. I'll tell you how we set up, and what I think is causing it. Please advise if I'm missing something. 4 piece band, drummer uses kit with monitor.3 vocalists mikes lined up across front. Only 2 monitors, set up in fron of the 2 outside vocalists, turned in towards center vocalist. Because of the size of stage area, the monitors are in line, if not in front of subs and mains, so across the stage you have, sub and main stack, sm58 mike with monitor, sm58 (acoustic guitar with open hole), sm57 with monitor, and sub and main stack. From what I've learned on here, the main problems are 1, the monitors in line or in front of FOH, and monitors pointing in towards center. Is there something I'm missing? One guy is saying it is the hole in the acoustic, needs plugged. I want to pick up another monitor for the center, and get all the monitors facing the backs of the mikes. Anything else you know of to improve feedback. The 2 monitors are the cheap Nady 12". Looking for help. Thanks, Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted July 13, 2004 CMS Author Share Posted July 13, 2004 First, have you been able to determine if the acoustic guitar is in fact the cause of the feedback? From your description it doesn't sound like it's being mic'd. Is it an electric/acoustic or have an add-on pickup? Are you sure of whether the feedback is from the monitors or the mains? The Nady monitors could be a contributor to difficult EQ'ing if their response is spiky. A telltale is being able to eventually EQ your feedback out, but requiring so much EQ that tone is seriously compromised. No slider should have to be moved more than 4-6dB max. It's not absolutely necessary that the mics face *directly* away from the monitors. -58's and to some extent, -57's have a short 'tail' to their cardioid response pattern that sometimes causes problems. A small tilt adjustment of the mic will clear this up if it happens. It's also not a big issue having monitors in line with mains...but it is important that the mics be behind an imaginary line drawn across the front of the mains, and it sounds as if yours might be really close if not in front of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Black Frog Posted July 13, 2004 Members Share Posted July 13, 2004 For the acoustic guitar, "Feedback Busters" can be a real help. They should be available for a few bucks at any guitar shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted July 13, 2004 Members Share Posted July 13, 2004 The monitors "in-line" with or in front or behind don't really have anything to do with anything. It's all about mic placement compared to speakers. You're not getting the most gain before feedback by angling them in and will do better when you add a third monitor so that you can set them directly behind the mics at their deadest position. Adding the third monitor should allow you to turn each one down while still maintaining the volume at the three singer's positions. Plugging the guitar will probably give you more gain before feedback (of that source only) and I'd give it a try. One of the biggest factors regarding feedback in clubs I've found is the ceiling height. If you have only 8 ft above you you aren't going to do as well as if you have 20', but of course that's not up to you. The two cheap Nady monitors are a whole 'nother problem. We haven't mentioned EQ or "feedback eliminators' which would probably help when used correctly. Remember, no matter what you do there IS a limit that you can't get past (or go IEMs) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rickr Posted July 13, 2004 Author Members Share Posted July 13, 2004 O,k. Acoustic/ electric for the guitar. Haven't really been able to nail down where the feedback is coming from. It's very intermittant. Seemed like it did it the most when the lead guitarist was singing. He's got the side sm58, samsung wireless for his guitar, into a crate amp that is miked with a crate unidirectional mike (don't know the model. I tried standing real still with the acoustic when the feedback started, and it didn't seem like I was the cause. I did reach over and slide the monitors to less of an angle, and that helped some. Didn't know if that's cause they were facing more towards the hole of my aciustic or something else. Thought maybe the mike on the lead amp might be causing it. I'll try plugging the hole in my acoustic. Mike stands are behind the monitors, which are in line or slightly in front of mains, so that would put the mike's themselves a couple of feet behind the mains.Ceiling height is very low in this room. Have to be careful putting the mains on poles on top the subs that you don't bump the ceiling.We're a country band, so it's not like we're busting eardrums. This particular place is just so bad that you can't seem to turn it up at all.Going iem is out of the question. Tried it, hate it. In fact, I've got a cheaper nady set as well as a shure psm200 in mint condition if someone wants to trade or buy. Just can't stand the isolation. Think I'll try plugging the acoustic and getting a 3rd monitor and see if that improves anything. Any other ideas. By the way, no matter what I try I can't seem to eq out the feedback when it occurs. Thanks for the help so far,Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted July 13, 2004 CMS Author Share Posted July 13, 2004 Rick, talk to me about that PSM200....I'm interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted July 13, 2004 CMS Author Share Posted July 13, 2004 Originally posted by Rickr By the way, no matter what I try I can't seem to eq out the feedback when it occurs. I'll bet the low ceiling is the big culprit here. Is there any way to hang some fabric or something deadening on the back wall? This isn't as good as also having a high or well-dampened ceiling, but it may cut down on some reflection that will make their way back to the mic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted July 13, 2004 Members Share Posted July 13, 2004 Yes,a black cloth backdrop is more than just a pretty face! Especially when the back wall is mirrored or otherwise highly reflective. As for the acoustic guitar feedback,if you are miking it,sure,it could be that mic. If it is the standard internal bridge pickup and you are talking about acoustic feedback inside the guitar,well that is very easy to tell or feel if you are playing it. You can feel it in the guitar body and the bottom strings want to take off and low notes will start quivering and buzzing on the frets. Explain what type of feedback tone you are hearing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rickr Posted July 13, 2004 Author Members Share Posted July 13, 2004 ok, at this location we are stuck back in front of a pool table, so we are probably 12 feet away from the back wall. Would this encourage or discourage feedback?As far as the guitar, it's got a built-in pickup. There are times when I get feedback that I recognize is coming from my guitar, i.e. I feel the strings buzzing. Normally happens when I turn wrong. Placing my hand on the strings and turning a differant direction has always stopped it. Saturday night didn't seem to be this. Everytime it happened the lead guitarist was stepping up to his mike to sing, or in the middle of his singing. Seemed like it was him, but I can't figure out what would have caused it. As far as what type of feedback, I'm ignorant to the subject. Couldn't tell you one type from another. I can tell you it was high frequency. Seemed like it was coming from a mike, but it would only do it for a second. The lead guitarist would keep singing, and it would stop itself. Of course, me and the bass player would move when it happened thinking it may have been us, and it could have. By the way, never got a chance to ring out the room as people where already there when we got there. Any of this help? Thanks,Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted July 13, 2004 Members Share Posted July 13, 2004 Originally posted by Rickr ok, at this location we are stuck back in front of a pool table, so we are probably 12 feet away from the back wall. Would this encourage or discourage feedback?As far as the guitar, it's got a built-in pickup. There are times when I get feedback that I recognize is coming from my guitar, i.e. I feel the strings buzzing. Normally happens when I turn wrong. Placing my hand on the strings and turning a differant direction has always stopped it. Saturday night didn't seem to be this. Everytime it happened the lead guitarist was stepping up to his mike to sing, or in the middle of his singing. Seemed like it was him, but I can't figure out what would have caused it. As far as what type of feedback, I'm ignorant to the subject. Couldn't tell you one type from another. I can tell you it was high frequency. Seemed like it was coming from a mike, but it would only do it for a second. The lead guitarist would keep singing, and it would stop itself. Of course, me and the bass player would move when it happened thinking it may have been us, and it could have. By the way, never got a chance to ring out the room as people where already there when we got there. Any of this help?Thanks,Rick In that case,it seems pretty obvious with these qualifications. Are you using just one monitor mix/or is this singer's vocals very evident in your monitor?Were you in line or in fairly close proximity to your monitor at the time?If yes on both counts,it seems obvious that when the singer's vocals started coming through your monitors,that volume in addition to your acoustic guitar's started the feedback. Remember,any sound pressure,not just your own guitar's,can cause acoustic feedback in an acoustic guitar. I've had it happen from the kick drum when standing in certain spots,or even from an electric guitar or bass when they hit a certain note that had the right frequencies for being in the "hot" area. Solutions? Obviously,tuning down your guitar in the monitor a bit will do it. Or getting away from your monitor and/or turning your soundhole away from the sound pressure if possible. Also,a parametric band that covers the 100-500hz range is great for trying to get rid of the feedback frequencies. Does your board have a semi-parametric mid band/sweepable center frequency? Using that usually helps a great deal. Set the boost cut control to cut about 4-6db. Then bring your guitar volume up in the monitor until the strings want to take off slowly. Then you slowly sweep the frequency control on the board until you find the area that helps eliminate or tame the feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted July 13, 2004 Members Share Posted July 13, 2004 I'm gonna take a stab at this as best I can. First I'd get the guitar a pickup so no mic is needed, it will solve some problems for you. Second those nasy monitors are the culprit. Swap them out for something better sounding and you'll see a big improvement right away. Each monitor mix should also have it's own 31 band EQ on it as well. I've played moderate volume gigs with the mains 6 feet away directly to my right without problems before (that was a wierd room). If you are in line or ahead of the mains by a foot or so no big deal, fix the monitor issue and you'll be cool. Also are you using any compression on the lead vocal mic? Sometimes a compressor with the threshold set too low can trigger feedback too easily. pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rickr Posted July 13, 2004 Author Members Share Posted July 13, 2004 No compression anywhere. You guys told me not to till I graduated from newbe. Each monitor send is eq'd as you suggested. I was wondering about the Nadys. I thought I remembered someone on here stated they were prone to feedback. Any recommendations on monitors? As for the lead guitar, we've begged him to get a direct box, but he says it doesn't sound as good as his amp. Don't know what to do there. Thanks, Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted July 13, 2004 Members Share Posted July 13, 2004 Originally posted by Rickr No compression anywhere. You guys told me not to till I graduated from newbe. Each monitor send is eq'd as you suggested. I was wondering about the Nadys. I thought I remembered someone on here stated they were prone to feedback. Any recommendations on monitors? As for the lead guitar, we've begged him to get a direct box, but he says it doesn't sound as good as his amp. Don't know what to do there. Thanks, Rick Yes,avoid the compression. Those monitors are bad,but from your description,it sound like your guitar is a major culprit. Did you read my last post? As for your guitarist getting a direct box,why? I've never had a feedback problem miking my amp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rickr Posted July 13, 2004 Author Members Share Posted July 13, 2004 Lack of communication somewhere. My acoustic has a built-in pickup. I'm not miking it. The lead guitarist, (electric guitar) has his amp miked. Does that make more sense. Dang English language, piss poor communication tool:p . Later,Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted July 13, 2004 Members Share Posted July 13, 2004 Originally posted by Rickr Lack of communication somewhere. My acoustic has a built-in pickup. I'm not miking it. The lead guitarist, (electric guitar) has his amp miked. Does that make more sense. Dang English language, piss poor communication tool:p .Later,Rick Yes,that is what I assumed. Did you read my part about taming feedback on an acoustic guitar in a band setting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rickr Posted July 13, 2004 Author Members Share Posted July 13, 2004 Ok, I was answering Unalaska about the pickups and direct box issue. Between all the voices in my head and multiple answers on the board (much appreciated by the way) I'm mixing up my responses. Alrighty then. Tlbonehead. There is one mix to 2 monitors. 1 in front of the lead guitarist, one in front of the bass player. I'm in the middle with both monitors angled slightly towards me. I've got the acoustic. Vocals for all 3 of us, plus my acoustic go through the monitor mix. The bass player was having trouble hearing the lead guitarist, so we also fed some of him through the mix as well. Come to think of it I'm not sure this isn't when the problem started. Do you still think it's my acoustic, and if so, does a hole plug help? Also,a parametric band that covers the 100-500hz range is great for trying to get rid of the feedback frequencies. Does your board have a semi-parametric mid band/sweepable center frequency? Using that usually helps a great deal. Set the boost cut control to cut about 4-6db. Then bring your guitar volume up in the monitor until the strings want to take off slowly. Man, you should be smacked talking like that. What you talking about Willis. Actually, let me see if I understand you correctly. I've got the mixwiz16 board. So on my acoustic channel, you want me to cut the mids 4-6db in the 100-500hz range, sweeping to find the culprit. Am I right? Did I pass? You guys are great, Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rangerkarlos Posted July 13, 2004 Members Share Posted July 13, 2004 Ah... the plot thickens. Feedback when the lead player steps up to the mic (and monitor) and he has some guitar fed into the monitor. Hollowbody guitar? IF (a big IF) this is the culprit, you could take him out of the monitor and turn his amp towards the bass player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted July 13, 2004 Members Share Posted July 13, 2004 Originally posted by rangerkarlos Ah... the plot thickens.Feedback when the lead player steps up to the mic (and monitor) and he has some guitar fed into the monitor.Hollowbody guitar?IF (a big IF) this is the culprit, you could take him out of the monitor and turn his amp towards the bass player. He also said it seemed to start when the singing came through the monitors. So probably the combination of adding electric guitar to the monitors and the vocals coming through them is too much and causes enough sound pressure in the acoustic to get things started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rickr Posted July 13, 2004 Author Members Share Posted July 13, 2004 Nope, not a hollow body. Just got me thinking though. Monitor is facing the mike, his amp is facing the mike from behind. Could we have gotten some wild reverb between the 2 that happened because of reflection or something when he got close to the mike? Later,Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted July 13, 2004 Members Share Posted July 13, 2004 Originally posted by Rickr Ok, I was answering Unalaska about the pickups and direct box issue. Between all the voices in my head and multiple answers on the board (much appreciated by the way) I'm mixing up my responses. Alrighty then. Tlbonehead. There is one mix to 2 monitors. 1 in front of the lead guitarist, one in front of the bass player. I'm in the middle with both monitors angled slightly towards me. I've got the acoustic. Vocals for all 3 of us, plus my acoustic go through the monitor mix. The bass player was having trouble hearing the lead guitarist, so we also fed some of him through the mix as well. Come to think of it I'm not sure this isn't when the problem started. Do you still think it's my acoustic, and if so, does a hole plug help? Man, you should be smacked talking like that. What you talking about Willis. Actually, let me see if I understand you correctly. I've got the mixwiz16 board. So on my acoustic channel, you want me to cut the mids 4-6db in the 100-500hz range, sweeping to find the culprit. Am I right? Did I pass? You guys are great, Rick Can you turn the guitarists amp somewhat to make it better heard to the bass player and others? I always set my amp up back in one corner of the stage firing towards the front of the other side of the stage. That way,everybody gets a piece of the sound. Yes,a plug should help a lot,maybe killing a bit of your tone. A lot of performers use them in the bigtime live setting where there is electric guitar,keys,and other thick material on stage. Every one of the acoustics on stage had them the three times I've seen Sheryl Crow live. And for the last part,yes,you understand exactly what I said. I'd try that and the electric guitarist's amp placement to try and keep him out of the monitors first,then go to the soundhole if you are still having problems. Or maybe get to have around in case you absolutely have to use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.