Help in adding an electric guitar to our band.

[mr2good]

We have a 5 person band, two guitars, bass, keys and a drummer. Right now, I play acoustic all the time and my buddy switches up between playing his acoustic and his electric through our PA. Since you can't send distortion through the PA speakers, he just uses a clean signal.

 

We want to move to him playing full time electric so we can have a fuller sound, using effects and distortion.

 

We have no idea what kind of set up he needs though. We currently have two 400 watt powered ISP VMAXX15's as our FOH speakers with all guitars, keys and mics going through a soundcraft spirit e12. The bassist has his own stack and doesn't go through the mixer. Right now we don't mic the drums but have room on the mixer to do so in the future. We will be playing mostly in doors small gigs, like 100-200 people max. We will probably play a couple outdoor events, but nothing bigger than above.

 

What kind of setup should we look to get for the electric. Looking for a good bang for your buck deal. What kind of power will be necesary? My buddy tells me a half stack with a head will give him a better sound than say a two 12" electric amplifier would, but I'm not sure if that is accurate.

 

I just don't trust the local music shops anymore for quality, honest advice. Thanks for the help, any and all advice is appreciated.

[GCDEF]

As a guitarist playing the club circuit, the last thing I'd want would be a half stack, and even a 2 x 12 combo is overkill. Low to moderate stage volume is very important in achieving good, controlled sound.

 

I've used all kinds of stuff, and found a Vox Tonelab SE gives me the best sound and most control of anything out there. He could run direct to the PA, into a keyboard style amp, or into a guitar amp and make it sound good.

 

If he doesn't want to go the modeller route, a small, channel switching combo would be my suggestion. There are hundreds to choose from depending on the sound he wants and what he wants to spend.

 

I also use a Tech 21 Trademark 60, which is a solid-state combo that sounds as good as just about any tube amp out there, sounds consistent at all volumes, and has speaker emulation for direct connection to the PA too.

 

So, he has lots of choices, but a half stack, should be at the bottom of the list.

[flip333]

I was once concerned about a distorted guitar signal going through the PA. I was informed that as long as the actual PA speaker is not distorting, you can run any pre-distorted signal throught it. If you are not clipping your output signal, you should not be sending anything dangerous.

 

For instance, I use a Digitech GNX2 processor. I send clean as well as very distorted signals through the PA. I use a DI box to my 12" amp for stage volume because of the tone I get from the amp. I suppose I could run straight into the PA with no stage amp at all. Then I would put guitar into the monitors. But I also like to have a back up if the processor failed.

 

I have heard good things about that tone lab.

 

I played a little 12" Fender tube amp last winter (a Blues Junior?) It really sounded great. There is something about that tube sound.

 

Yea, those local music store guys will tell you that what you need just happens to be what they have in stock!

[B. Adams]

Yep, your buddy is wrong. All a half stack will do is turn you into another way-too-loud bar band.

 

The best thing would be to get a small combo amp, and a tilt-back stand so he can point it at his head. He only needs an amp loud enough for him to hear it on stage, and the PA can do the rest.

 

A 30W 2x12 tube amp is more than you need, a 15W 1x12 tube amp would probably be just about right. I have an old 2x12 solid state Marshall combo that's 2x65W, and that thing is far too loud. Once it gets up around "2" it starts to be too much.

 

The days of needing huge amps and lots of speakers are long gone, your friend should be more concerned with getting a good sound at a low volume. And tell him that tilt-back stands are the cool thing to do now.

[Singin' Dave]

I completely agree with the prior postings. A half stack is just plain inconvenient and unneccessary for the vast majority of gigs out there, as PA's can carry your distortion guitar sounds in pretty much all occasions. Half stacks and even 60W 2x12" combos can be super loud on stage if you want good tone, and this will not help your stage mix/hearing.

 

I would highly recommend a small 30w combo amp as described above. I'm a fan of tube amps, so I'd direct you to look very strongly at the Peavey Classic 30 for a reasonable solution (about $300-$350 used). You would then just mic the amp with a sm57 or senn e609 or something similar, and send that signal to the PA. I'm not a fan of modelers...to my ears they sound thin and processed. Plus if you just want to practice, you still have to go through the DI/PA thing rather than just plug into your amp. In my case, I recently bought a Peavey C30 to replace my SF Fender Twin Reverb, cuz the Twin was just too damn loud and heavy! Love the Classic 30--great amp (with some speaker and tube mods)

[SteelyD2]

+1. Keep it simple and there are some great things in small packages.

 

I have a Fender Twin that sounds great, but it stays at church now because it weighs 80 lbs. and my back is too old and sore. I usually travel with my old Princeton Chorus or my Pro Junior, depending on the gig, and they always sit up on a $30 tilt-back stand. The Pro Jr. is a 15W, 1x10 little screamer that only weighs about 20 lbs., gets surprisingly loud and was cheap ($260 used on ebay). When it's not big enough, I simply drape a Sennheiser e609s over the front and let the PA do the heavy lifting. In conjunction with the amp I use a Korg AX1000G floor-type multi-effector. It has some decent effects, but the amp/cabinet modeling is not that great so I always prefer to run through some kind of amp rather than going direct to the PA.

 

The possibilities are mind boggling, but there are some really cool options. I've also heard great things about the Vox ToneLab and the Line 6 POD units are extremely popular because they offer such a huge range of tonal possibilities. Line 6 recently brought out a floor unit version of the POD called the POD Live XT (I think). For an all-in-one-combo-amp-modeler-direct box, you might also look into the Fender Cyber-Series amps, and they've been out a few years so you might even find a used one. Inexpensive straight-ahead tube amp combos are the aforementioned Fender Pro Jr./Blues Jr./Deluxe, Peavey Classic 30/50, Reverend Hellhound(discontinued) or Traynor YCV20/40/80. The object of my personal gear lust is a Carr Rambler (I'd have one if they weren't about $2K).

 

Happy hunting,

D

[tlbonehead]

Once again,I have to somewhat disagree with the previous posts. Combo or half-stack,it really makes no difference. Volume is volume. You need to use common sense and control it regardless. I use a 30 watt half-stack and just about every combo user around here is as louder,if not quite a bit louder on stage than I play. I just like the tone of a closed back cab,especially a 4x10 or 4x12. So its up to personal choice,but regardless,use some sense concerning on stage volume. Another thing I like about closed back cabs is that they are much tighter in dispersion. So you can aim it where you need it to be heard(mainly across the stage for myself and the other members) and you don't get much excess volume cluttering up the rest of the area. Plus,my 4x12 weighs just under 60lbs and my tube head is in the 25-30lb range.

[mr2good]

Thanks for the advice.

 

Could someone explain how running the electric with distortion through the mixer and the foh speakers would work? I was told you shouldn't do that. So i figured he needed to get an amp loud enough for the crowd to hear. But you guys are saying that it is ok to send distortion through the mixer and into the powered speakers?

 

Thanks for straightening this out.

[Daniel Smart]

Why would it not work? Mic on amp into mixer, set gain on mixer and levels accordingly. It's just a sound which you're amplifying, same as anything else.

 

-Dan

[B. Adams]

If you couldn't listen to distortion through the speakers, how could you listen to Metallica on your stereo? See the parallels?...

 

It's fine to amplify a distorted sound with a PA, whoever told you otherwise is a jackass. Of course, you don't want your mixer or power amps doing the distorting, but having them recreate the sound of a distorted electric guitar is fine. After all, it's just the sound that the guitar amp's speakers are putting out...

[tlbonehead]

Originally posted by B. Adams If you couldn't listen to distortion through the speakers, how could you listen to Metallica on your stereo? See the parallels?... It's fine to amplify a distorted sound with a PA, whoever told you otherwise is a jackass. Of course, you don't want your mixer or power amps doing the distorting, but having them recreate the sound of a distorted electric guitar is fine. After all, it's just the sound that the guitar amp's speakers are putting out...

Yep. And don't forget,some of the greatest songs of the 60's,the distortion on the guitar was actually made with the console channel preamp. The old ones at that time had tube preamps.And the distorted guitar in STREET FIGHTING MAN was Keef's guitar into a reel to reel recorder,I believe.

[GCDEF]

 

Originally posted by tlbonehead Yep. And don't forget,some of the greatest songs of the 60's,the distortion on the guitar was actually made with the console channel preamp. The old ones at that time had tube preamps.And the distorted guitar in STREET FIGHTING MAN was Keef's guitar into a reel to reel recorder,I believe.

 

 

I'd heard the same thing about some of Cream's stuff. Personally, I think EC's guitar sound on the Layla album and some of his Cream work, like Strange Brew is horrible, but I believe that's how it was created. Somebody on the Les Paul forum went so far as to duplicate the sound by overloading a mixer a while back, and it sounded very much like old EC.

[tlbonehead]

Originally posted by GCDEF I'd heard the same thing about some of Cream's stuff. Personally, I think EC's guitar sound on the Layla album and some of his Cream work, like Strange Brew is horrible, but I believe that's how it was created. Somebody on the Les Paul forum went so far as to duplicate the sound by overloading a mixer a while back, and it sounded very much like old EC.

Hey! That's one of my alltime favorite guitar songs.

[GCDEF]

Originally posted by tlbonehead Hey! That's one of my alltime favorite guitar songs.

 

I love the songs, hate the tone. I honestly don't know how they played that back and decided it sounded good.

[kayak]

I use a Vox AD120VTH with a 212 cab on stage, line out left channel only to the PA. The amp itself I only set to the 2x1watt setting. Low stage volume. Soundman controls the house volume without interference from the stage volume. If someone on stage can't hear my guitar, bring it up in the monitors a little.

 

Nowadays, less is more!

[agedhorse]

Remember, with distorted signal you will need to de-rate the power handling of the speakers. Depends on the amount of distortion and overall volume, but there's derating to be done.

 

JBL has done some good white papers on this.

[mr2good]

Ok, I understand now.

 

I think there are two options here, either mic'ing the amp, or someone mentioned sending an out from the amp to the mixer.

 

Which is my best overall option? I'm sure there are differences in terms of ease of setup or sound quality amongst others.

 

I really appreciate the advice!

[kayak]

 

Originally posted by mr2good mic'ing the amp, or someone mentioned sending an out from the amp to the mixer

 

 

Most purists recommend mic'ing the amp, as you will also pickup the influence the amplifier's speaker has on the guitar's sound.

 

I'm not as picky. I line out and say "good 'nuf"

[GCDEF]

 

Originally posted by mr2good Ok, I understand now. I think there are two options here, either mic'ing the amp, or someone mentioned sending an out from the amp to the mixer. Which is my best overall option? I'm sure there are differences in terms of ease of setup or sound quality amongst others. I really appreciate the advice!

 

 

Sending an out from the amp to the mixer only works if you have some kind of speaker emulation. There are several boxes on the market that go between amp and speaker that let you output your amp's sound and the simulated sound of a speaker cabinet. They work pretty well. Modelling preamps all have speaker emulators, as do most modelling amps.

 

If you don't have an amp designed to go direct to PA, or you're not happy with the sound of speaker emulating direct boxes, you'll have to mic it.

 

I find going direct more consistent, easier to set up, and you don't get any ambient noise. Some people just prefer the sound of a mic though.

[mr2good]

 

Originally posted by GCDEF Sending an out from the amp to the mixer only works if you have some kind of speaker emulation. There are several boxes on the market that go between amp and speaker that let you output your amp's sound and the simulated sound of a speaker cabinet. They work pretty well. Modelling preamps all have speaker emulators, as do most modelling amps. If you don't have an amp designed to go direct to PA, or you're not happy with the sound of speaker emulating direct boxes, you'll have to mic it. I find going direct more consistent, easier to set up, and you don't get any ambient noise. Some people just prefer the sound of a mic though.

 

 

Ok, so what you are saying is that if we go straight from the amp to the PA we need some sort of effects box because the amps distortion or effects isn't sent to the mixer through its output? And if we only wanted to use the amps effects we need to mic it? I'm trying to clear up exaclty what pieces of equipment we need.

 

Any other nice tube amps to look at besides the fender juniors, the peavey classic 30's and the traynor yvc 20/40? Do you have any reccomendations for a marshall tube amp?

 

Also, I see the use of combo amp and the use of tube amp on here. The important thing is that its a tube amp correct?

 

Thanks for all the help!

[kayak]

 

Originally posted by mr2good Ok, so what you are saying is that if we go straight from the amp to the PA we need some sort of effects box because the amps distortion or effects isn't sent to the mixer through its output? And if we only wanted to use the amps effects we need to mic it?

 

 

Not exactly. If the amp has a line output, then the amp's distortion and effects (assuming the line out is post-effects) will be sent to the PA. What would not be sent to the PA is the characteristics of the speaker in the amp, ie. does it break up early, does it sound warm, dark, bright, chimey, etc. Devices (whether it be built into a modelling amp, or contained in an outboard device such as the Behringer GI100 Ultra-G

[GCDEF]

 

Originally posted by mr2good Ok, so what you are saying is that if we go straight from the amp to the PA we need some sort of effects box because the amps distortion or effects isn't sent to the mixer through its output? And if we only wanted to use the amps effects we need to mic it? I'm trying to clear up exaclty what pieces of equipment we need. Any other nice tube amps to look at besides the fender juniors, the peavey classic 30's and the traynor yvc 20/40? Do you have any reccomendations for a marshall tube amp? Also, I see the use of combo amp and the use of tube amp on here. The important thing is that its a tube amp correct? Thanks for all the help!

 

 

No, let me try again. Kayak did a good job explaining what I meant. Some amps have a line out after the preamp. If you use that, you won't get the sound of the power amp, which may or may not be important, and you won't get the sound of the speakers, which is important. At a minimum, you'll need to add speaker emulation. Two popular boxes that do that are the H&K Red Box or the Behringer Ultra-G.

 

Those two boxes will also go between the power amp and the speaker and add speaker emulation, so you'll get a pretty good sound.

 

Some amps, particularly modellers such as Vox Valvetronix series and Pods have built in amp and speaker emulation and are designed to go straight to PA.

 

Tube amps are important to some not to others. Personally, I find the Tonelab SE sounds better and is more flexible than any tube amp I've ever played. As a backup, I use a Tech 21 Trademark 60, which is a solid state amp, that also sounds excellent and has a line out with speaker emulation also.

 

The last, and probably still most prevalent method is to use a regular guitar amp and stick a mic in front of it.

[Singin' Dave]

 

Also, I see the use of combo amp and the use of tube amp on here. The important thing is that its a tube amp correct?

 

 

Combo guitar amplifiers is the generic term for any amplifier (tube or solid state) in which the controls/eq, pre-amp, power amp and speaker are self-contained into one box. "Heads" is the common term for amplifiers that house the controls/eq, pre-amp and power amp but do not house the speaker. Heads need to be connected to seperate speaker cabinets (or "cabs").

 

As for tube amps vs. solid state vs. direct guitar amp emulators, the debalte rages like the 100 year war over in the guitar amp forum as to what sounds "better" ("better" being a purely subjective term) or "easier" (ditto).