4 conductor, 8 conductor

[lucho_84]

Well I'm in need of 4 and 8 conductor speaker cable and was wondering if there was an industry standard or a specific cable I should be using? I've looked but even in the Belden catalog all I foud was 14awg 8 cond. I really am looking for a supplier who carries 2, 4, and 8 conductor or a place where I can buy them even if they're different dealers. Just point me in the right direction. Mark, I remember seing a picture of one of your racks wired for quad-amp and was wondering where you find that cable. Any help in finding what I need is apreciated!

 

2,4,& 8 conductor. Thanks:)

[B. Adams]

Camel Traders stocks 8 conductor speaker cable, and Horizon sells it too. Horizon also sells speaker snakes, that use 8 conductor cable to run 4 speaker channels, as well as standard 4 and 8 conductor speaker cables.

 

I think Mark sells mostly 4 conductor cables, but he might stock 8 conductor as well. For as many cables as he makes, I wouldn't doubt if he has some on hand all the time.

 

FWIW, most 8 conductor cable is 13ga, while the biggest 4 conductor you'll usually see is 11ga, but mny people use 12 or 14.

[Guest Anonymous]

Yes, I stock the following types of bulk EWI speaker cable:

 

1) 2 x 2.5 sq. mm (13-2)

2) 2 x 4 sq. mm (11-2)

3) 4 x 2.5 sq. mm (13-4)

4) 4 x 4 sq. mm (11-4)

5) 8 x 2.5 sq. mm (13-8)

 

I'll be stocking 8 x 3 sq. mm in the future as-well.

[Audioeast]

we also stock the 13-8 Cable

[lucho_84]

I just asked Bill the sqame question but here goes. Shoulddn't the 8 conductor cable be thicker than the 4 conductor. I have a few 4 conductor cables that are 12awg. 13awg 8 conductor is thinner right? And what exactly does the strand have to do with? What is a good strand for speaker cable? Thanks

[lucho_84]

I forgot to ask what the prices are on those cables, Mark and Dan? I've already heard from Bill.

[agedhorse]

The limiting factor is the ability to cleanly terminate this on the connector of your choice.

 

For 8 conductor, there's no need (in general) to increase the size of the individual wires. Generally, I prefer smaller due to contact density.

 

We use 12, 13 or 14 gauge.

[Craig Vecchione]

So what's the consensus of utilizing an 8-conductor cable? Breakout box or rack panel, or re-wiring existing cabinet jackplates, etc.?

[B. Adams]

No, usually for triamped mains, using NL-8 connectors. You can run the lows, mids, and highs for the top cabinet, and then have an NL-4 output from the top cabinet to run to a subwoofer. In this way, you can run triamped mains and subs, with just one cable to the stack.

 

It also gets used to run seperate speaker signals to multiple cabinets, so you can essentially have 4 speaker cables all in one, with 4 connectors on each end, or 2 biamp cables in one, with 2 connectors on each end. I suppose you could use it as a speaker snake, with a fan on one side and tails on the other, but usually when I see that type of thing it's for 4 biamped cabinets (usually monitors), and it uses 19 conductor Socapex cable. I've also seen Soco cables used for frame-flown speaker stacks, where it's a theatre tour that has their speakers flown in a steel tower that gets set up the same each time. You can also use Soco cable to run to a stack, with a breakout on the end to hook up to the cabinets.

 

Multiconductor speaker cable saves a ton of setup time, and makes for a neater stage, especially when you've got lots of cabinets. Obviously not everybody needs that though.

 

Using it inside a rack is pointless, IMO, since you can just use regular cable for that, and it'll be cheaper.

[lucho_84]

I'm gonna use it to tri-amp 4 stacks. EAW LA series stacks for a friend of mine.

[Audiopyle Sound]

 

Originally posted by Craigv So what's the consensus of utilizing an 8-conductor cable? Breakout box or rack panel, or re-wiring existing cabinet jackplates, etc.?

 

 

I've given some thought to using it with breakout boxes for sets of delay speakers. In a case like that I would route the 4 pairs from an NL8 panel connector all to the 1+/1- terminals on separate NL4s mounted in a quad box.

[Brad Harris]

 

Originally posted by Craigv So what's the consensus of utilizing an 8-conductor cable? Breakout box or rack panel, or re-wiring existing cabinet jackplates, etc.?

 

 

We do this with one company, we have custom splays for our 4 way rigs (of the few we have), basically a NL8 panel mount to NL4 ends (usually just pin 1)

 

We also have aluminum enclosure with the following pin outs on NL4 - 1/2. 2/3, 3/4 (2 NL4 each) as well as just 3 on TS and 4 on TS. These are usually used on monitors, or really small shows (tri-amp FOH and a monitor mix, usually for Dance/Variety shows), it usually works out to 1 run US and a run DS if run passive (for monitors). Otherwise we usually run separate lines for bi-amp wedges.

 

Our main 'Speaker Snake' (19pr 16g with Soca on one end), goes to L/R biamp tops, mono subs (2 connectors), and 4 passive mixes. This gets us through pretty much 95% of the gigs, otherwise (unless its the 4 way FOH rig), an extra NL4 run if we double up subs, or need another mix. The first 25' is just 19pr, then breaksout to 15' for SL PA, and another 25' of the remaining cables, and then out another 25' to thier respective terminations (our passive wedges are TS, all other boxes are NL4).

 

I wouldn't mind doing up a 19pr breakout for Bi-amp wedges, but we don't run them that much to warrent it (and its usually a crossrental rack & wedge anyways). We have adapter plates for our biamp FOH boxes to be used as wedges if required.

 

Soca/19pr can get you 9 mixes (4 biamp), but I really don't like having it on a soca connection, expecially when there is large enough lighting to warrent alot of soca, and the possibility of sending 120/208 to either your speakers, or your amps (depending on how you set it up). I havn't searched, but something similar, but keyed differently would be perfect.

[Guest Anonymous]

 

Originally posted by Brad Harris Our main 'Speaker Snake' (19pr 16g with Soca on one end), goes to L/R biamp tops, mono subs (2 connectors), and 4 passive mixes. This gets us through pretty much 95% of the gigs, otherwise (unless its the 4 way FOH rig), an extra NL4 run if we double up subs, or need another mix. The first 25' is just 19pr, then breaksout to 15' for SL PA, and another 25' of the remaining cables, and then out another 25' to thier respective terminations (our passive wedges are TS, all other boxes are NL4). I wouldn't mind doing up a 19pr breakout for Bi-amp wedges, but we don't run them that much to warrent it (and its usually a crossrental rack & wedge anyways). We have adapter plates for our biamp FOH boxes to be used as wedges if required. Soca/19pr can get you 9 mixes (4 biamp), but I really don't like having it on a soca connection, expecially when there is large enough lighting to warrent alot of soca, and the possibility of sending 120/208 to either your speakers, or your amps (depending on how you set it up). I havn't searched, but something similar, but keyed differently would be perfect.

 

Huh? You're using 19 pin Socapex stuff for speaker cabinets? HUH? You're using $45 ea. connectors for speaker connectors? What/how/why??? And the stuff that doesn't warrant Socapex connectors gets 1/4" or NL4 connectors?

 

HUH? You have applications utilizing 9 biamp mixes on one speaker cable? HUH? Up there in Toronto all the rental outfits set-up the gear this way???

 

You lost me on this one.

[agedhorse]

For wedge breakouts, I rarely see 8 mixes going to the same location that a single cable for an output from the rack would even make sense.

 

I do see it for flying up to main speakers though.

[Brad Harris]

Originally posted by Audiopile Huh? You're using 19 pin Socapex stuff for speaker cabinets? HUH? You're using $45 ea. connectors for speaker connectors? What/how/why??? And the stuff that doesn't warrant Socapex connectors gets 1/4" or NL4 connectors? HUH? You have applications utilizing 9 biamp mixes on one speaker cable? HUH? Up there in Toronto all the rental outfits set-up the gear this way??? You lost me on this one.

 

No, not everyone in Toronto is setup this way. This is done with a small company, who doesn't have the resources to stockpile massive amount of cabling, where this is a solution, and simplifies most stages. I've found with rental houses in Toronto, If I crossrent a monitor rig (amps, cabling, speakers), the standard pack of a 50' cable to a wedge, isn't close to enough, even on small stages. I'm of the group where cable runs don't run across stage, but rather around to where it is, if it needs to cross stage, its in a place where it is very low traffic, low visibility to the audience (not all stages are black), and try to run all of the cable that is REQUIRED to cross in that area.

 

Yup, triamp FOH (bi-amp tops in stereo), plus 4 mixes (passive). Everythings patched, 1 connection (at the amp rack), and it can't be f%$@'d up unless you tear the rack apart, and just plug in the speakers at the other end (on NL4 or TS). 1 cable to run, keeps side/front stage clean (if we have stages!), just faster/easier and a little more fool proof.

 

The soca connector is at the AMP RACK ONLY, why would we put soca on a speaker box , I was mentioning the fact, that how Joe the Lampy saw the cable on the ground, he could fry your speakers, or your amps. Its more likley that Joe would fry your speakers, and that you would fry your amps by seeing a soca connector near the rack rather than Joe patching in his SOCA to your amp rack. (Talking about the 'SOCA' plug, not the actual 'SOCA' brand plug, like kleenex) - (And sometimes crew just doesn't pay attention, but sees a style of connector, and look for a place to plug it in rather than understand WHERE it needs to go than the closest socket - kinda like vidiots/room froof lighting, where they plug in wherever the closest outlet is, even if the cable is suspended in mid air, across a doorway due to not having A/C cables).

 

I was just saying you could get 9 biamp mixes out of the soca, send it onstage, break out in NL4 or NL8 (and breakout again).

 

We do alot of work with the same bands (almost 200 shows/year with one set - A/B/C of the same band), and have NEVER Had a problem doing this (the speaker snake I was mentioning).

 

Personally, I'd rather run 1 cable, than 8 to do these shows, and similarly save wraping 7 of those cables on the out.

 

Its a solution we've found to be very reliable and very fast, our load-ins are usually 90 minutes (including setting/ringing out the wedges, 2K lighting), and backline with 2 guys. The strikes rarely take more than that (if it is, its because of a wierd push through the kitchen maze, or the crew of 2 are tired). A crew of 1 could do it in under 5hrs between load-in and strike, but we're not greedy, and the gig supports it so we send a loader out for each rig, in addition to the operator.

 

The difference between soca and NL8? Aside from price and materials, and capacity, is that SOCA is used for A/C in lighting rigs, which is the only reason i'm not a fan of using this connector. I just mentioned the possibility of Joe the Lampy plugging it in to thier dimmers rather than where it needs to go. NL8 is not used for A/C purposes.

 

If I only need what NL8 will give me on a breakout, I'll bring NL8, If I need more, and the 19pr can do that, I'll use that instead.

 

We only use the NL8 breakout boxes a dozen or two times a year, but makes the stage alot cleaner, less cabling, and a little more idiot proof for connecting to the amp racks (Our racks are multi purpose, standardized on 7001's - were currently looking at others as, well, 7001's are no more).

[Brad Harris]

 

Originally posted by agedhorse For wedge breakouts, I rarely see 8 mixes going to the same location that a single cable for an output from the rack would even make sense. I do see it for flying up to main speakers though.

 

 

Its mainly for cleaning up the stage, 8-9 mixes in one area, must be PJ coming to town!

 

We don't do the SOCA for monitors, just for the FOH snake I mentioned.

 

We do use NL8 for monitors though. I'll run a NL8 US, and depending on the show, 1 or 2 DS for wedges, you still need to get from the NL8 box to the wedge, but its generally a shorter NL4 cable than what you'd need to go directly to the amp rack (and saves fishing all/most the cables from under stairs/obstacles/etc.)

 

 

Think of it this way, for larger shows, would you rather run the 4-12 U-Ground plugs 200' to FOH, or run out a single 30A twist (single or 3 phase, dependent on your distro setup), and have a satelite box, 1 cable, multiple outlets, yet you still have to plug stuff in (YES FOH land is a lot more compact than the stage, but the principal is the same). Would you run a 10' 30A twist to a satelite pack if there is enough 15/20A circuits on the distro, maybe. It depends if that 10' crosses a high traffic area, where you have no choice, but to setup the distro close to it, but still safely (ie, facing away from the trafic, no excessive ammounts of cabling).

 

Its all an implementation thing really.

[agedhorse]

Yeah, I understand what you are trying to say, but coming out of the amp rack, do you have one Soca to SL stack and the other to SR stack, or one going to both???

 

For wedges, I rarely have an application where all 8 mixes go to a single location, maybe a pit band, but for a typical concert the wedges are scattered about the stage and it's faster and easier to run from the amp rack to the wedges individually.

 

We used EP's so if you need more than 50', we would just plug in another cable... not a big deal.

[Brad Harris]

Yeah, its all one 1 connector. For we worked out the runs so we could do ~50' between the FOH boxes, and have the 4 monitor lines anywhere across the DS edge, we did put an extra 15' on the 4th mix so it could go somewhere onstage.

 

I find it 1/2 and 1/2 with the shows of that size to either homerun to the amp rack, or to use a snake of some sort. I've been doing alot with powered wedges lately, so I've been using 4pr xlr to get to a centralized area for the mixes, which is basically the same thing IMO. Drop an A/C with a cube tap on it and your good to go for 3-4 wedges (depending on the boxes of course).

[Guest Anonymous]

Um.... ok Brad. I've gotta admit, that's a new twist to an old dance.

 

Back to NL8 stuff: Here's a little something I've whipped up for box mixer folks who need a speaker snake, which utilizes NL-8 cable:

 

http://www.audiopile.net/Technical_Library/NL8_snake_system.JPG

 

http://www.audiopile.net/Technical_Library/NL8%20Breakout%20box%20LF.JPG

 

It's a 4 channel speaker snake with detachable fantail and stagebox. The Speakon paneljacks on the stagebox are parallel wired to the 1/4" jacks. The fantail disconnect is an old style NL8MM round barrel coupler with the NL8MP jack removed on one end, a machined plate and Kellem's mesh-grip cable clamp reinstalled with 3ft. pigtails wired to the 1/4" cordends.

 

Typically I wire up three way systems (subs and mid-high cabs) for folks with:

 

1) NL-8 inputs on the subs (wired on pins 1).

2) NL-4 outputs on the subs wired:

A) NL8 pins 2 to NL4 pins 1 and:

B) NL8 pins 3 to NL4 pins 2

3) NL4 on the mid-highs.

 

This seems to work pretty good. NL8 from the amp rack to the subs. NL4 jumper from the subs to the mid-high cabs. The mid-high's can be run off-a bi-amp monitor power as-well if doing side-fill duty, or announcement application system set-ups.

 

I kind of like having dual NL8's and dual NL4's on the subs (redundancy thing).

 

I've wired a few rigs all NL8 so only one type of cable is used and it doesn't matter how the rig's plugged in so long as there is an NL8 cable from the amp rack to each stack and a jumper from each mid-high to each sub.

 

My passive wedges are all wired NL4, utilizing all 4 pins on the monitor jacks and cables. I have a double pole double throw switch on each monitor to select operation of the monitor drawing off-a pins 1 or pins 2. This works pretty slick. I typically run about a 30ft. NL4 cable from the monitor amp rack to the first moitor, flip the switch to "Ch 1", and then jump from the first monitor to a second monitor with a short 10ft. NL4 cable and flip the switch on the second monitor to "Ch 2".

 

The sound company's Vertec rig is: NL4 to the subs, NL8 to the mid-highs, dedicated (no jumping between the subs and mid-highs).

 

My Meyer subs are NL4 to the subs. They're a dual 18" subs and each 18" is fed seperately from one side or the other of an amp. I like this wiring configuration since I park an amprack behind both the left and right stack (always use two amp racks). If I'm running 1/2 stacks (1 sub and 2 mid-highs per side) each stack still gets an amp rack. Dual stacks just drops the ohm load on the amps from 8 ohms to 4 ohms. I find it's easier to just always pack two amps racks as compared to packing a single amp rack and running long cross stage speaker cables when running single stacks.

 

Actually, my Meyer system is set-up with Cannon EP4 connectors on the subs and Neutrik NL4 connectors on the mid-highs... but that's just to keep from having any boo-boos.

[fantasticsound]

I just skimmed this thread, but I'm surprised to hear some of you use Socapex for audio applications when there are plenty of multipin cable connections available, made specifically for audio, that are easier to deal with in most ways and definitely will never end up in the LD's cable trunks.

 

I run into many who use EP connecters. 4 pin for subs and 6 pin for triamped EAW KF850's. Mostly NL4's for monitors. The NL8's are great for combining channels to a large, flown system. But the EP connectors hold up better because of the all metal construction. Haven't run into the newer Neutrik metal NL's.

[agedhorse]

I think Brad's talking about putting 8+ pair on a single connector. The NL and EP/AP max out at 4 pair.

[B. Adams]

Or you can put 4 biamped monitor signals on one cable. It's pretty normal to need 4 mixes in one area, so it makes sense.

 

I don't know of any other connector that will allow 4 biamp signals, so it fills a need for some people. If people like Mark are making 4 channel snakes for passive cabinets using NL8 connectors, there's obviously a need for something like this, especially when your on a level that requires biamped wedges.

 

Every time I've seen Soca cable used for audio, the connectors are painted a different color, to make it easy to distinguish between the two. Also, the lighting guys use a ton of Soca cable, but sound only has a few, maybe around a dozen cables. That makes it easier to know your stuff goes where it's supposed to.

 

And come on guys, you've been around a while. How do you not know that people have been doing this? FWIW, I've seen it mostly in theatre, and a few regional and touring sound companies, but I've seen it quite a bit.

[Guest Anonymous]

Originally posted by B. Adams And come on guys, you've been around a while. How do you not know that people have been doing this? FWIW, I've seen it mostly in theatre, and a few regional and touring sound companies, but I've seen it quite a bit.

There's a variety of different Socapex connectors. I've seen Socapex multipin connectors used for power supply to board interconnects. I've seen Socapex for multipin disconnects on effects or EQ racks. I've seen Socapex used for disconnects on subsnakes on high-end splitter snakes. I've never seen Socapex on speaker cabinets. I don't doubt it's been done, it's just that using Socapex ends for speaker cabinet connections seems a little out-there, when other capable and much less expensive speaker suitable connectors have been ready available for decades.

 

eh... what the heck. I used 7 pin semi-truck/trailer ends for years for speaker connectors. Before the days of Speakon connectors, lots of folks (including me) used Hubbell twist-lock AC ends for speaker connectors. I still think it's tough to beat Cannon EP connectors for durability and reliability at a "somewhat reasonable price".

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by B. Adams ...And come on guys, you've been around a while. How do you not know that people have been doing this? FWIW, I've seen it mostly in theatre, and a few regional and touring sound companies, but I've seen it quite a bit.

 

Oh, I know people have done this, but I haven't seen it much in the past 10 years. Too many better, quicker alternatives widely available in the past decade.

 

I guess part of it comes from being in a market where regional sound companies are directly in competition with MD/Clair. Few sound companies in Nashville build their own, proprietary boxes. Most manufacturers use EP, NL or one of a few other connectors. But certainly not Soca.