Members Dan FX Posted October 23, 2005 Members Share Posted October 23, 2005 Hi all, I would like some PA system advice for our church. The room is 20 ft. wide, by 40 ft.-long, with a 15 ft. high ceiling. There are three windows evenly spaced down each side with floor-to-ceiling drapes on them. The floor is carpeted and the seats are fabric covered. I'm currently using a duel JTS wireless lapel microphone system. I need the lapel mic system because our minister often moves from the podium to a blackboard to diagram his sermons. From the wireless receiver I'm going into a DBX 266 XL compressor, coming out of that, going into a Yamaha EMX 66M powered mixer. (I know it's supposed to go between the preamp and amplifier but the EMX 66M doesn't have any inserts) in any case it seems to be working. I'm using the compressor with the ratio set to infinity which makes it work as a limiter. From the record out on the front of the EMX 66M one going into a cheap Sound Blaster card in my PC. (A temporary measure until I find out what the best interface would be) please make suggestions here. I have a Sennheiser H D 280 pro headphones plugged into the sound card. With the EMX 66M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted October 23, 2005 Members Share Posted October 23, 2005 The BIGGEST problem with your system is the speakers. Take all that money you were gonna put in that other gear you proposed and spend it ALL on a speaker system. What are you doing there ... spoken word only ... guitar and piano and vocal music ... full on praise band with drumset and electric bass. If you are doing the first two take a look at this http://www.sanctuary-series.com/speakers/ssela.cfm. Because it is a true line array it will be much more even loudness wise between the front row and the back row. Mount it (or you can use a pair mounted together) center hung for best performance in that room. Pick one of the little matching subs to with it. btw ... nothing wrong with using the compressor the way you are doing it. Does your minister have a mic at the podium AND a lapel mic? ...big problem ... If so you should look at this. It will automatically take care of that problem. It has automatic feedback elimination too. http://www.sanctuary-series.com/mixers/s14p.cfm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 23, 2005 Share Posted October 23, 2005 Originally posted by Dan FX Does anyone have any experience with the DBX DriveRack PA? It seems to solve all your problems with one box! The DBX DriveRack PA device seems to be a must-have item for many... before/ instead of/in-place of decent speakers, mics, sufficent power, etc... I'm also quite curious what/how the DBX DriveRack PA device solves all the problems? Originally posted by Dan FX Any advice you can give me would be greatly appreciated, because I don't want to buy equipment that can do the job. A Freudian slip? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted October 23, 2005 Members Share Posted October 23, 2005 Originally posted by Dan FX Hi all,Any advice you can give me would be greatly appreciated, because I don't want to buy equipment that can do the job.Thanks, Dan FX Unfortunately,that seems to be the norm with newbies. They tend to spend their money on bells and whistles and magic powder instead of decent basic pieces. It really isn't odd to have to boost or cut certain frequencies,especially with low end speakers,as well as room acoustics being another reason. Your speakers are a very weak link. They are pretty much a bottom-feeder model. It wouldn't cost you much to do a very noticeable upgrade there. PSSL has been selling the Cerwin Vega PSX153's for $279-299 and they would be a large step up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dan FX Posted October 24, 2005 Author Members Share Posted October 24, 2005 Thanks Don for your reply, We are only using a lapel mic on the minister, no podium mic. And currently there is no music, just voice. The SSE LA speaker is very interesting, but at 400 W in our church 20 ft.-wide by 40 ft.-long do you think it might be overkill? I will check out the S14P mixer, it's one I haven't heard of before. Audiopile, You caught me, I use Dragon NaturallySpeaking to do the typing for me, and well it was late last night, and and and---- The DBX DriveRack PA doesn't solve the speaker problem if they aren't up to the job, but as I read it with the optional microphone it evaluates the acoustics of the room and somehow adjust the system accordingly. Also it has a multiband parametric duel 28 band graphic equalizer, crossover, compressor limiter, all-in-one rack space for around $1100 Australian. Much cheaper than buying separate components, but the question is does it really perform? tlbonehead, The Cerwin Vega PSX153's speakers look amazing, but again in our 20 by 40 ft. room, and having 600 W, I think they might be a bit too big. Thanks again, to everyone for your responses, Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 24, 2005 Members Share Posted October 24, 2005 The DriveRack is a great piece if you know what you are doing AND you already have good quality gear including speakers. As a band-aid, it covers up some blood but does not really solve the problems at hand... more like masks them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dan FX Posted October 24, 2005 Author Members Share Posted October 24, 2005 agedhorse, Thanks for that, I think see what you mean. Do you have any recommendations for speekers, and a mixer? The room Is only 20ft W by 40ft L with a 15ft ceiling. Thanks again, Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted October 24, 2005 Members Share Posted October 24, 2005 Originally posted by Dan FX Thanks Don for your reply,We are only using a lapel mic on the minister, no podium mic. And currently there is no music, just voice.The SSE LA speaker is very interesting, but at 400 W in our church 20 ft.-wide by 40 ft.-long do you think it might be overkill? Nope ... that's exactly the job it was designed to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dan FX Posted October 24, 2005 Author Members Share Posted October 24, 2005 Hi Don, I'll have a closer look at those SSE LA speaker, hopefuly they are sold and supported here in Australia. Thanks Again, Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members matt emery Posted October 24, 2005 Members Share Posted October 24, 2005 Where abouts are you? I'ld seriously look at the DB technologies stuff. Reasonable quality gear at a good price. You seem to have correctly (imho) identified that it's your speakers thats really letting you down. Decent quality speakers won't require much if any signal processing to get them to an acceptable level for anything up to professional applications. If you get to the point where you are ready for the driverack, don't pay more than $1000. But that's a while away yet i suspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dan FX Posted October 25, 2005 Author Members Share Posted October 25, 2005 Hi Matt, I'm in Sydney, Australia. I haven't seen DB speakers in any of the shops, but when I bought the latest Audio Technology magazine they had pullout catalog of their gear inside. It looks like they only sell online, through Brand Detective. No buy before you try here I suspect. Thanks for your help, Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members matt emery Posted October 27, 2005 Members Share Posted October 27, 2005 Thats weird, there in every shop up here it seems. Shouldn't have too much trouble tracking them down to listen to i wouldn't think. But the diferences in the PA markets over here continue to amaze me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dan FX Posted October 27, 2005 Author Members Share Posted October 27, 2005 Hi Matt, Do you, or dose anyone else, have experince with Mackie mixers, or Soundcraft? I guess is what I an asking is, What's good in small Mixers? Thanks, Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Balladeer Posted October 27, 2005 Members Share Posted October 27, 2005 I'm responsible for the PA in a small church, say 50 to 150 people. Using good quality amp and speakers means I don't need any outboard, not even an EQ. the sound is smooth and detailed with no noticeable peaks, and no particular sweet/sour spots as you move about the room. The system is completely portable - cleared away after each event - and can be used lengthways or widthways in the room, in the local school gym, or (regularly) out in the local supermarket parking lot. Choice of mixers here in the UK is easy - Souncraft or (more expensively) A&H. I use a Souncraft Spirit rackmount (mind you, that was in place before my time). Amp is an EV P1200, speakers are Celestion SR1's with SRC4 controller between mixer and amp. The SRC1's are ABS-housed twin 8" full-range units with integral tweeters, so there's non of the harsh and directional effects you can get with horn loaders. They have a wide dispersion, so are great for wide rooms or outdoors. And the transportation lids are completely rugged and waterproof. We mix speech, singers and some instruments. The lapel mic tends to be ruled out because the preacher is normally in front of the speakers, (yeh, I know) and likes the volume a little higher than strictly 'reinforcement', but a the handheld wireless mic is great. Whilst this won't be the system for you, the message is: high-quality gear is easier to get sounding right. Don't go for fix-it boxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted October 27, 2005 Members Share Posted October 27, 2005 Originally posted by Dan FX Hi Matt, Do you, or dose anyone else, have experince with Mackie mixers, or Soundcraft?I guess is what I an asking is, What's good in small Mixers?Thanks, Dan I just got a Soundcraft M12 and it looks like a pretty decent mixer if it has enough channels for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members matt emery Posted October 27, 2005 Members Share Posted October 27, 2005 Mackie aren't my favourite mixer thats for sure, but they work fine. I find pretty much anything with a mackie logo to be overpriced over here.... exremely fanatical following in the semi pro market in my experience. The Peavey RQ serries mixers have a great reputation but i don't see many of them over here. Allan and Heath Mixwhiz is what i use and love but thats probably more than your willing to spend. Soundcraft make some nice boars though i have no first hand experence, and yamaha make an acceptable small cheap mixer, MG serries i believe. But a good set of speakers will make more of a difference than anything else, maybe more than everything else put together. (assuming you have good quality signal to reproduce, i.e. decent microphone) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members laidback Posted October 27, 2005 Members Share Posted October 27, 2005 I've installed several of these in small churches in the past few years. I've had zero failures. They sound good and have pretty good routing and features. Nice boards for the $. BTW, the model #'s refer to mike inputs. Each of the 3 models (M4, M8 , M12) also have stereo inputs that are convenient for CD or cassette. 1Originally posted by tlbonehead I just got a Soundcraft M12 and it looks like a pretty decent mixer if it has enough channels for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted October 27, 2005 Members Share Posted October 27, 2005 Originally posted by laidback I've installed several of these in small churches in the past few years. I've had zero failures. They sound good and have pretty good routing and features. Nice boards for the $. BTW, the model #'s refer to mike inputs. Each of the 3 models (M4, M8 , M12) also have stereo inputs that are convenient for CD or cassette.1 Yep. I paid about $425 for mine used but absolutely just like new with all papers,original packaging,etc. 12 XLR channels and, I believe 4 true stereo channels. Our drummer submixes,so it has enough mic inputs for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Balladeer Posted October 27, 2005 Members Share Posted October 27, 2005 The M series also has SPDIF digital out (for the mix), so you can record straight to your PC/laptop in ones and zeroes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dan FX Posted October 28, 2005 Author Members Share Posted October 28, 2005 Hi Balladeer, Thanks for your reply and advice, those speakers that you mentioned the Celestion SR1's. Seem quite interesting, and I was wondering how many of them I would need for our church, which is 20 ft. wide and 40 ft.-long? Currently our situation is voice only, and we're not looking to be really loud, we're aiming for a little boost and a lot of clarity. The Celestion web site, says that they are suited for wide dispersion, and are to be used with the SRC4 controller. I suspect subs aren't needed, would that be right? Also how much do they cost, speakers and controller? The Soundcraft spirit M8, versus the soundcraft spirit FX8, do you know what the differences are? And the S/PDIF Digital output you mentioned, I'm not sure what that is. Is that a FireWire, or USB soundcard, or something else? Thanks again for all your help, Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dan FX Posted October 28, 2005 Author Members Share Posted October 28, 2005 Hi tlbonehead, and laidback, In reality, four channels would probably be enough, so having eight should see me okay into the future. Do you recommend the Spirit M8, over the Mackie 1402-VLZ pro, and the Mackie ONYX 1220? Thanks for your help is well, Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dan FX Posted October 28, 2005 Author Members Share Posted October 28, 2005 Hi Matt, Thanks for your mixer suggestions. I am curious what you didn't like about Mackie mixers, and I suppose it would depend on which models you've had experience with? Here in Sydney the Soundcraft FX8 can be bought for $1050. Australian, The Mackie 1402-VLZ Pro $796. Australian, And the Mackie ONYX 1220 for $996. Australian, I'm not sure of the cost of any of the others here in Australia, but I will try to check them out. Thanks again for your help Matt, Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Balladeer Posted October 28, 2005 Members Share Posted October 28, 2005 Dan, ...Celestion SR1's. Seem quite interesting, and I was wondering how many of them I would need for our church, which is 20 ft. wide and 40 ft.-long? One pair should be fine, mounted at least 7ft high to fill to the back of the hall. Obviously sound levels will tail off across those 40ft, but I'd say keep it simple. Toe them in so's not to bounce too much off the side walls. Currently our situation is voice only, and we're not looking to be really loud, we're aiming for a little boost and a lot of clarity. SR1's are specced at 350W average, so that should give plenty of headroom. I use the 4ohm versions with an amp that is specced at average 550W per side into 4ohm, and has very low distortion figures. The Celestion web site, says that they are suited for wide dispersion, and are to be used with the SRC4 controller. Yep. Wide (120degree+) coverage may be OTT in your installation, unless you are working widthways in the hall. But the speakers have such a spike-free frequency response that they seem to work anywhere. You need the SRC4 controller. These units date from Bose 804 heyday, when they'd build a compact plastic-shelled speaker with small drive units and then sell you the electronics to get the right frequency response and resonance out of it. But, hey, it works a treat! I suspect subs aren't needed, would that be right? Also how much do they cost, speakers and controller? I have never needed subs. If you ever did, push the button on the SRC4 and you get just SR1-tailored mid/treb through the L/R outs and the low-freq through a mono output. I suspect you may not find the SR1's in Oz. They are not among the Celestion units in the main distributor's catalog, here: http://www.network-et.com/pro_audio_catalogue.pdf You could ask. A pair are installed in the Elder Hall, University of Adelaide, according to their website. In the UK they are priced low: a pair of SR1's is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Balladeer Posted October 28, 2005 Members Share Posted October 28, 2005 A few more thoughts... If you want the sort of sound and spec the SR1's have, and can afford it, look at the Tannoy V12 and TX2 controller. They would suit your space even better, IMO. Look them up at http://www.syntec.com.au V12 speaker: $Aus 2099 eachTX2 (optional, but worth it) controller: $Aus 799 Drool, drool, sigh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dan FX Posted October 28, 2005 Author Members Share Posted October 28, 2005 Hi Balladeer, I appreciate all the information you've given me. I am curious though about those 4 ohm speakers. Are you saying that you get less distortion with 4 ohm speakers then you get with 8 ohm speakers? Or are there other advantages, and reasons to choose 4 ohm speakers? I don't believe my computer has a S/PDIF input, is it something that can be added to my computer? The Tannoy V12 speakers, are very expensive! Sigh. Thanks for all your help, Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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