Members wheresgrant3 Posted October 24, 2005 Members Share Posted October 24, 2005 We've recently been experiencing some intermittent problems with our PA. None of the people in my and are experienced soundmen so we are pulling our hair out trying to fix this problem. We are a loud 5 piece rock cover band.Nuts in a Blender We mix our entire backline through our PA... 2 guitars, keyboards (through a submixer/DI), drums, bass and vocals through a 16 channel Mackie 1604VL mixer. Our Tops are JBL JRX115's and subs are JRX118S's. To power the mix we run 2 Crown CE2000 for the the subs and tops, and one crown CE1000 for the monitor mix. By all accounts we sould have plenty of power... however we keep encountering poor sound in select clubs and my guess... the source of power is the main issue. Last Friday we played a regular club that we've always experienced some PA problems. This past Friday it seemed as though one side of our PA was not cutting through... it was distorting and breaking up. Each side of our FOH is seperated by a dbx stereo crossover. During a matinenece this past summer a tech found a few faulty pots on our mixer, however he didn't find anything wrong with the crossover. The problem is we've experienced this very same problem before at this very same club. After trouble shooting everything (including cables) everything seems to point back to the crossover. My theory: This club is basically a full service resturaunt. with a large bar and dance floor area. We've blown circuits there in the past... usually when we've plugged a single 36 or 64 par can into the same outlet as the PA. Boom!!! Out goes the lights (and everything else) Now we are careful where we plug in the lights, however I don't really believe we are plugged into a seperate circuit. I believe out PA, backline and lights (an estimated 2800-3000 watts) is competing on the same circuit as the kitchen... running it's coolers, microwave, stoves... An indicator of this is I run my keys through an active DI I monitor my keys in stereo through two keyboard amps.... with the amps on and no signal you can clearly hear noise and ground hum. My guess is that input or output jacks on the left channel of our stereo crossover has some oxidation on them. Usually we fix the problem temporarily by switching cables and/ or screamiing into the mic. The extra voltage seems to connect something then "pop" all of the sudden the channel sounds clear again. After a few songs or a pause it seems to revert back to the previous condition. All night the channel comes in and out. I believe that because we are competing for power on the club, and that is affecting our crossover. That maybe not enough juice is running to the amps to power a clear signal through the crossover and out to the speakers? Could the source power be a big issue why we aren't getting a clean sound from our PA.? Even if we fix or replace our crossover will a power conditioner help elminate the problem? Our singer seems convinced that maybe we don't have enough power.... I think that is ridicules... two Crown CE2000's for an FOH mix for rooms that hold 150-250 people max. I've seen many bands sound great.... and gig with far less. What's your opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 24, 2005 Members Share Posted October 24, 2005 The problem as you describe it has nothing to do with power. You need to find a good repair tech and pay whatever it takes to have him troubleshoot it while you are having the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kevinnem Posted October 24, 2005 Members Share Posted October 24, 2005 well if your car is all %%@#ed up, you don't realy approch the problem by saying, ..hmm, I think we need a bigger engine. first off, it is going to take a guy with ecperiance to track down all teh electical issues. find out, and lable what plug is what circiut ect. I work at a club, and I am not sure if it is a same circuit or or just a genral power draw issue, but everytime the dishwasher kicks in, you here a boom through the system ... sometimes its is in time, some times it pushs the beat, damn cooks are so inconsistent. Only thing I can think of , if it is your PA , is to set it up seomwhere else, and trouble shot your problems there, so then, if you have problems at teh club, then you know its them and not YOUR gear. Kev. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members where02190 Posted October 24, 2005 Members Share Posted October 24, 2005 If you need to scream into a mic as a temporary solution, you have some bad connections internally, which could be almost anywhere. A 1000 watt par 64 draws 8.6 amps. That and a couple PA amps at moderate volume is more than enough to take out a 20 amp circuit. Lighting should ALWAYS be on separate circuits from audio. Find a qualified tech to repair your issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted October 24, 2005 Members Share Posted October 24, 2005 I had a similar problem with a DBX crossover. One of the HF outputs had an intermittent short. It would go from no sound on one side, to low, distorted sound to fine sound just by jiggling the cable slightly. Since it wasn't very expensive, I just replaced it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Scodiddly Posted October 24, 2005 Members Share Posted October 24, 2005 You can buy a voltmeter for under $20-30 (Home Despot, Radio Hack, etc.) and measure the outlet power pretty easily. I wouldn't rule out equipment problems at all, even if it seems to vary from club to club. Sometimes marginal connections can be influenced by humidity, temperature, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wheresgrant3 Posted October 24, 2005 Author Members Share Posted October 24, 2005 We just had a complete maintenence done in August. Every poy, every slider and every jack was examined and cleaned. It worked great for about a month and now again we are experincing an intermittent problem. The subs won't work unless you disconnect and reconnect the cable. One FOH channel starts to distort and crap out. Unfortunately the tech who worked on it(which is one of the best and only real soundtech's in the area) is constantly gigging. We attempoted to have him run sound for us at a gig and he's simply unavailable. We all work full time jobs. The likelyhood of us to take a vacation day to play so he can diagnose a faulty jack is... nil to none. Can some one recommened a stereo crossover. I'm going to replace this one and see if it improves the problem. I was looking at the DBX 223 XL Everything always points to that crossover whenever these problems occur. crossovers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted October 24, 2005 Members Share Posted October 24, 2005 I replaced my DBX 223XL with a Samson s.2. It was cheap and seems to work well so far. I don't know what the regulars around here think of Samson, but I've been happy with everything I've used by them so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted October 24, 2005 CMS Author Share Posted October 24, 2005 Originally posted by wheresgrant3 We just had a complete maintenence done in August. Every poy, every slider and every jack was examined and cleaned. It worked great for about a month and now again we are experincing an intermittent problem. The subs won't work unless you disconnect and reconnect the cable. One FOH channel starts to distort and crap out. Unfortunately the tech who worked on it(which is one of the best and only real soundtech's in the area) is constantly gigging. We attempoted to have him run sound for us at a gig and he's simply unavailable. We all work full time jobs. The likelyhood of us to take a vacation day to play so he can diagnose a faulty jack is... nil to none. Can some one recommened a stereo crossover. I'm going to replace this one and see if it improves the problem. I was looking at the DBX 223 XL Everything always points to that crossover whenever these problems occur. crossovers I see you're in my old stomping grounds....I lived in Washingtonville until '97. Can you borrow or rent a crossover to confirm that's the problem? Or perhaps make use of a 30-day return policy. Have you replced cables to remove that factor? Also, it should be a fairly simple matter to open the dbx crossover and tighten the jack contacts. If you buy a new one, consider getting the XLR version to minimize these problems in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wheresgrant3 Posted October 24, 2005 Author Members Share Posted October 24, 2005 Originally posted by Craigv I see you're in my old stomping grounds....I lived in Washingtonville until '97. Can you borrow or rent a crossover to confirm that's the problem? Or perhaps make use of a 30-day return policy. Have you replced cables to remove that factor? Also, it should be a fairly simple matter to open the dbx crossover and tighten the jack contacts.If you buy a new one, consider getting the XLR version to minimize these problems in the future. Washingtonville... The home of Brotherhood Winery and Tommy A's. !!! So you are familar with Orange County... even the largest rooms you are required to provide sound. Tested cables... even had the whole PA serviced. It could be a bad jack but the problem is intermittent and for some reason always seems to happen at this place. We've considered using a BBE Sonic Maximizer for the FOH. I found this BBE unit that intergrates both.... BBE crossover w/ Sonic Maximizer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members where02190 Posted October 24, 2005 Members Share Posted October 24, 2005 We just had a complete maintenence done in August. That was 2 months ago, and it sounds like you're a fairly busy band. Either the problem has reoccured, or you have a new one, and it could be almost anywhere. Try posting an ad in Craigslist.com, or call a local sound rental company, they will recommend someone for you. Consider better cases for your gear, especially the electronics. All that loading in and out, and miles in the truck take its toll fast if gear is not properly cased. Make sure both top and bottoms of all rack mounted gear is supported front AND back. Delicate electronics, x-overs, eq, dynamics and efx should be in shock mount racks. This will make a major improvement of the durability of your gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Scodiddly Posted October 24, 2005 Members Share Posted October 24, 2005 http://www.craigslist.org, not ".com". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Greazygeo Posted October 24, 2005 Members Share Posted October 24, 2005 i have that same mixer and was having a couple issues with it recently...the left tape input was barely passing any sound and was very distorted....also the right side of the FOH would not work some times. I opened up the mixer this past weekend and found a bunch of ribbon cables with connectors normally found inside pc's making teh connections. I unhooked them one by one and shot in some eletronic cleaner. Everything worked great at Sat nites gig. Maybe that's all you have going on..bar smoke will coat everything pretty quickly! Why not just hook up your system without the crossover and use the tops full range to check out your system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gruvjack Posted October 24, 2005 Members Share Posted October 24, 2005 usually when we've plugged a single 36 or 64 par can into the same outlet as the PA. Boom!!! It goes without saying: never run PA and lighting on the same power outlet. If no other outlets are available, either provide your own power or look for another venue. Blowing up gear is simply not worth the hassle. I had similar problems with the system at work. One side kept of going in and out, sometimes distorted, sometimes not. Checked all electronics. Seemed OK. Replaced speaker cable that was part of the problem. Sound was OK. Then one night, we lost one side completely. No high or lows on left channel. Quick look at the mixer LEDs (both showing signals). Headphone revealed sound on both sides. Tops amp showing signal on one side only. Subs amp showing signal on one side only. Hmmm, signal cables from mixer to EQ? Nope.Signal cables from EQ to top amps? Nope. The master level LEDs were deceptive. Turns out it was the master fader. Replaced it in the morning. Sound back up and running next night. V. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Real MC Posted October 24, 2005 Members Share Posted October 24, 2005 Originally posted by wheresgrant3 None of the people in my and are experienced soundmen That's your problem right there. You're just poking in the dark by speculating about the power. I know this one guy who bought a $40,000 Corvette. He has never driven a car before and he wants to drive like Dale Earnhardt. A PA is the same thing - they're a complex machine that requires experience to make it perform at its peak performance. Good soundmen are worth their salt. That is what you need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ShizzelDizzel Posted October 24, 2005 Members Share Posted October 24, 2005 Originally posted by Greazygeo i have that same mixer and was having a couple issues with it recently...the left tape input was barely passing any sound and was very distorted....also the right side of the FOH would not work some times. I opened up the mixer this past weekend and found a bunch of ribbon cables with connectors normally found inside pc's making teh connections. I unhooked them one by one and shot in some eletronic cleaner. Everything worked great at Sat nites gig. Maybe that's all you have going on..bar smoke will coat everything pretty quickly! Why not just hook up your system without the crossover and use the tops full range to check out your system? This is a reoccurring problem in the VLZ and Mackie power amp line. The ribbon cables and headers they used at one time were faulty/wrong size etc... I think agedhorse knows more about this. Anyway, I'd say your problem lies inside your mixer based upon the problem you're having and the history that Mackie line has. Of course this is just my .035 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members where02190 Posted October 24, 2005 Members Share Posted October 24, 2005 Originally posted by Scodiddly http://www.craigslist.org, not ".com". Either will take you to the same place. Ribbon cables on the Mackie consoles are a major issue, since they are not secured in place at all, over time (if not properly cased, a short period of time) they can work loose and cause intermittant issues, as can the insert jacks, which easily crack from the PC board. The "shout into a mic" fix is a classic symptom of a bad/broken solder point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wheresgrant3 Posted October 24, 2005 Author Members Share Posted October 24, 2005 Originally posted by The Real MC That's your problem right there. You're just poking in the dark by speculating about the power. I know this one guy who bought a $40,000 Corvette. He has never driven a car before and he wants to drive like Dale Earnhardt. A PA is the same thing - they're a complex machine that requires experience to make it perform at its peak performance. Good soundmen are worth their salt. That is what you need. If there was one "worth his salt" available for hire in our local area... we would have hired him already. Unfortunately most of the sound guys around here just are guys who work in music stores. They speculate just as much as we do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 25, 2005 Members Share Posted October 25, 2005 Could be an intermittent connection in the mixer, the 1604VLZ has had more than it's share of problems for sure. Does it happen on only one input channel? The ribbon cable repair is not something for an inexperienced tech as the mechanical assembly is rather difficult to figure out and is also time consuming to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members PJR Posted October 25, 2005 Members Share Posted October 25, 2005 Grant, As was posted earlier.......you really need to get the system checked out , and diagnose what exactly the problem is, without the pressure of having to gig with it. Do you guys have the system set up @ your rehearsal space ( I don't think so....but can't remember ) If not......is there someplace you know of that you can set it up for a day of testing / tweaking ?? It would also be helpful if you could substitute different pieces to help , by process of elimination , determine which link is weak in the system. I'd be willing to help you , and bring some of my system / pieces we could exchange out to test. PJR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wheresgrant3 Posted October 25, 2005 Author Members Share Posted October 25, 2005 Originally posted by agedhorse Could be an intermittent connection in the mixer, the 1604VLZ has had more than it's share of problems for sure. Does it happen on only one input channel?The ribbon cable repair is not something for an inexperienced tech as the mechanical assembly is rather difficult to figure out and is also time consuming to do. Actually it is just the output coming through the crossover. One side tends to crap out or many times the subs don't seem to work. We had the mixer completely disassembled and serviced in August. It is three years old this September and by my estimates has done over 130 gigs. Originally posted by PJR As was posted earlier.......you really need to get the system checked out , and diagnose what exactly the problem is, without the pressure of having to gig with it.Do you guys have the system set up @ your rehearsal space ( I don't think so....but can't remember ) If not......is there someplace you know of that you can set it up for a day of testing / tweaking ?? It would also be helpful if you could substitute different pieces to help , by process of elimination , determine which link is weak in the system.I'd be willing to help you , and bring some of my system / pieces we could exchange out to test Pete... I hear you but we just did that less than two months ago at Alto's in Middletown. They had the entire PA (sans the speakers) and serviced the entire thing. At the time they repaired numerous problems on the mixer but didn't find anything wrong with the crossover. As I said before the problem is intermittent... appearently it was working fine when they had it in for servicing. The biggest problem is getting the PA to Alto's and retrieving it for a gig. Our PA lies in our band trailer with the rest of our equipment. We have a seperate rehersal setup. Unless someone can take off of work for an afternoon it is a challenge getting it there. Tom is the guy at Alto's who worked on the board and he one of the best in the area (everyone reccomends him) however he's semi retired and works only 2-3 half days a week. We offered to pay him to come out to a gig or try to troubleshoot our rig, however he's not really available. Greg also does great work but he is tied up doing warranty work at Alto's. If you know of a great local soundman or tech shoot me a PM or an email. Grant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 25, 2005 Members Share Posted October 25, 2005 Output problems are also common with that console... also can be a ribbon cable issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wheresgrant3 Posted October 25, 2005 Author Members Share Posted October 25, 2005 Originally posted by agedhorse Output problems are also common with that console... also can be a ribbon cable issue. Our bass player owns the PA... and I forget what he paid for the board. He was a little upset when the tech told him it was disposable.... 5 maybe six years and then you'll have to replace it. Unless you spend the $$$ for an A&H most of the sub $1000 mixers have a 5 year life span. Jacks crack, oxidize... wires corrode from humidity. The metal used is cheap. After 5 years it's worth it to junk them and use a new board. Our bass player didn't want to hear that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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