DI box for bass in PA

[rickrock]

Probably a small dollar question, but hopefully one with a simple answer. I want to get a DI box to put the bass guitar through our PA, and take one mic off the stage. The amp is a pretty beefy ampeg, and I think it goes through a matching cabinet with 4 10's and a small tweeter. What's the best option to run it direct into the board? (mackie 24-4 pro vlz) I understand these are pretty inexpensive, but if active is better and more $, I'll go with the best sound, most reliable, etc., but I have no clue about brands, quality, or manufacturers. Much obliged.

 

Rickrock

[soundministries]

Audiopile DI's All my DI's are from Mark and Liz. I use the active one on passive basses and the passive ones on active basses, though I've used them both in both situations with little perceived differences. Good DI boxes and even better prices and customer service.

[where02190]

Whurlwind IMP2 or Director, good quality, low price, very reliable and sound great.

[agedhorse]

Doesn't the Ampeg have a balanced direct out already built into it??? Why not use that?

[ashivraj]

 

Originally posted by agedhorse Doesn't the Ampeg have a balanced direct out already built into it??? Why not use that?

 

 

 

Originally posted by agedhorse in this thread I way-prefer a pre-eq DI signal from the bass. You players have NO IDEA what the bass sounds like standing up there on stage. Generally your eq settings bare no relationship to what I need.

 

 

Not sure if the amp's DI is pre or post EQ, plus whether it has a ground lift or not, plus whether it can handle phantom (even though they all SHOULD have that protection)... always safer to go with a DI before the amp, methinks. If you want the amp's tone, mic it and blend to taste.

 

AS

[agedhorse]

Generally, amp DI's are pre eq unless they offer a pre-post switch. I'm sure there are exceptions, but not on the larger Ampegs I don't think.

[BassDemon]

 

Originally posted by agedhorse Doesn't the Ampeg have a balanced direct out already built into it??? Why not use that?

 

 

One of my pet peeves is when the soundguy unplugs my bass from the amp, plugs it into his DI box and then run a pass through cable back to my amp.

 

I paid a lot of money for an amp with a quality XLR output.

It has ground lift, adjustable level and pre/post eq switch.

I also have a short XLR lead hanging from the rack so he doesn't need to fumble around in the dark to find the plug.

[Dave Martin]

Most sound companies simply use the DI built into my SWR Super Redhead, so I'd think that the Ampeg DI would be just fine. Phantom power is a non-issue, (if a connection doesn't need it, it won't see it). You should be able to check easily whether or not your Ampeg output is pre or post EQ; simply plug it into the board, and boost some frequencies on the amp. If it changes the sound in the PA, it's post EQ - if it doesn't, it's pre...

 

But if, for some reason, you want a separate DI, I'd suggest either a Countryman (cheap and good), or a Radial (more expensive and better). I'd suggest that for a live setup, more esoteric DI's (Evil Twin, A Designs, etc...) might be a bit of overkill.

[ctardi]

 

Originally posted by BassDemon One of my pet peeves is when the soundguy unplugs my bass from the amp, plugs it into his DI box and then run a pass through cable back to my amp.

 

 

Well, you gotta use what you know, he doesn't know your equiptment, so he doesn't use it.

 

 

Phantom power is a non-issue, (if a connection doesn't need it, it won't see it).

 

 

Not true. I don't have a choice with the mixer I use wether or not I give phantom to every channel. Mine is either on or off.

 

Anyways, as for the question, there are many a thread of praise for mark's (audiopile) di's.

[milesdf]

 

Originally posted by BassDemon One of my pet peeves is when the soundguy unplugs my bass from the amp, plugs it into his DI box and then run a pass through cable back to my amp. I paid a lot of money for an amp with a quality XLR output. It has ground lift, adjustable level and pre/post eq switch. I also have a short XLR lead hanging from the rack so he doesn't need to fumble around in the dark to find the plug.

 

 

especially when your running a tube preamp to get a unique tone and he goes and {censored}s it up by running your bass direct.

[Dave Martin]

 

Originally posted by ctardi Not true. I don't have a choice with the mixer I use wether or not I give phantom to every channel. Mine is either on or off. Anyways, as for the question, there are many a thread of praise for mark's (audiopile) di's.

 

 

You misunderstood me, I'm afraid - if a microphone (or a DI) doesn't use phantom power, it doesn't notice phantom power (that's why they call it 'phantom'). For example, an SM58 doesn't require phantom power, so it doesn't react whether or not phantom is sent to it. Same with DI's; if the box in question doesn't use phantom power, it doesn't see it at all. Even ribbon mics ignore phantom - the problems with phantom power and ribbon mics occurs when plugging them in (if power is supplied to only one side, as when you use TRS connectors in a microphone patch bay).

 

And while I do enjoy high end DI's (I own a half dozen DI's that cost more than $500, and 'll put my Eclair Engineering against anyone's DI as a bass DI), I honestly don't think that it matters in a live performance situation; other factors (stage volume, room sound, etc...) will (in my experience) minimize the enhanced performance, making the cost of such a box excessive for typical live use.

[boseengineer]

 

Originally posted by Dave Martin You misunderstood me, I'm afraid - if a microphone (or a DI) doesn't use phantom power, it doesn't notice phantom power (that's why they call it 'phantom'). For example, an SM58 doesn't require phantom power, so it doesn't react whether or not phantom is sent to it. Same with DI's; if the box in question doesn't use phantom power, it doesn't see it at all. Even ribbon mics ignore phantom - the problems with phantom power and ribbon mics occurs when plugging them in (if power is supplied to only one side, as when you use TRS connectors in a microphone patch bay).

 

 

Unfortunately not entirely correct. Any active gear that you plug into an XLR (like a mini-mixer, active DI, etc.) can be potentially damaged by phantom power. The output coupling caps need to be able to stomach the 48 V. As the caps are big, this tends to be a little more expensive and not everybody does that. Overvoltage on an electrolytic cap can be a messy affair.

[TimmyP]

 

Originally posted by BassDemon I paid a lot of money for an amp with a quality XLR output. It has ground lift, adjustable level and pre/post eq switch.

 

 

The instrument feeding directly into a good DI is likely IME to sound better than said instrument going through your preamp. I usually use my DI, as it is a known quantity. One of these days I'll break down and get a Radial.

[milesdf]

guys look at half the pro bassists out there. they use a unique blend of electronics to get a unique tone. if you di there bass directly, you just ruined it. great job.

[where02190]

If the sound you have though your rig is what you want to go to the FOH, you should insist on a mic on the rig, not a DI from your god knows what sounding head, as, while that may sound great through your 8-10" cab onstage, it usually sounds like ASS in the FOH system.

 

I will ALWAYS take the DI right off the bass, and I take a mic on the rig, and choose the best between the two, or a combination of them. However if I have limited channels and can only take one bass line, it's going to be directly off the bass. Don't like it, bring your own engineer.

[milesdf]

 

Originally posted by where02190 If the sound you have though your rig is what you want to go to the FOH, you should insist on a mic on the rig, not a DI from your god knows what sounding head, as, while that may sound great through your 8-10" cab onstage, it usually sounds like ASS in the FOH system. I will ALWAYS take the DI right off the bass, and I take a mic on the rig, and choose the best between the two, or a combination of them. However if I have limited channels and can only take one bass line, it's going to be directly off the bass. Don't like it, bring your own engineer.

 

 

well if you didnt know what was required in advance in the form of a rider, i dont think it matters. no non-pro should be giving {censored} to a sound guy, ever.

[Thunderbroom]

Originally posted by milesdf no non-pro should be giving {censored} to a sound guy, ever.

 

Just because I'm a weekend warrior, I shouldn't insist on the best sound possible from the sound guy?!?

 

Maybe by "giving {censored}", you mean being rude though.

 

He is getting paid, isn't he?

[ctardi]

Originally posted by milesdf well if you didnt know what was required in advance in the form of a rider, i dont think it matters. no non-pro should be giving {censored} to a sound guy, ever.

 

Nobody should give {censored} to the sound guy, I mean he's probably been around all day, and smells bad enough already. If you give him a good ol' pile o' {censored}, he's not going to have any chance scoring with hot, head gal.

 

Edited to add a coma that otherwise made it sound very dirty..

[milesdf]

what im saying is that if the bassist isnt good enough to be in a band that has riders for there shows that state that he will require a line in for his rigs, he shouldnt care how his bass is represented foh and if he does than he is giving {censored} to the sound guy.

[agedhorse]

 

Originally posted by boseengineer Unfortunately not entirely correct. Any active gear that you plug into an XLR (like a mini-mixer, active DI, etc.) can be potentially damaged by phantom power. The output coupling caps need to be able to stomach the 48 V. As the caps are big, this tends to be a little more expensive and not everybody does that. Overvoltage on an electrolytic cap can be a messy affair.

 

AND, the polarity of those blocking caps better be correct too (jab at a well known manufacturer of bass amps that designed them in backwards for several years until they figured out whatthey were there for!!!)

[Dave Martin]

Originally posted by Thunderbroom Just because I'm a weekend warrior, I shouldn't insist on the best sound possible from the sound guy?!?

 

I think that the point is that what you think you want and what actually gets the job done are two completely different things. As has been mentioned a couple of times, the EQ settings that you use to get 'your' sound from your speakers will NOT work in a PA - look, you're using 4 10 inch speakers and a piezo on stage, and EQ'ing to make that cabinet sound good - a PA cabinet will have a completely different response, and therefore, will need a much different EQ curve to get the same sound as your cabinet. Now, if you insist on sending a post-EQ signal to the house, the engineer would have to frastically EQ that signal to make it useable, and in the process introducing artifacts that will degrade the signal considerably.

 

You want the best possible sound? Then make it possible for the sound guy to give you that, by NOT tying his hands before he even starts.

[agedhorse]

 

Originally posted by TimmyP The instrument feeding directly into a good DI is likely IME to sound better than said instrument going through your preamp. I usually use my DI, as it is a known quantity. One of these days I'll break down and get a Radial.

 

 

FYI, what's in the typical (semi-pro quality +) amp is just as good, if not better than the average DI. The only possible issue in some applications is the lack of galvanic isolation... but this is becoming less of a problem these days.

 

One reason it may sound better than the bass directly into the DI is that on many better amps, the first stage input buffer or scaling amp will drive the DI output so the signal will be totally buffered from the pickups.

[Dave Martin]

 

Originally posted by boseengineer Unfortunately not entirely correct. Any active gear that you plug into an XLR (like a mini-mixer, active DI, etc.) can be potentially damaged by phantom power. The output coupling caps need to be able to stomach the 48 V. As the caps are big, this tends to be a little more expensive and not everybody does that. Overvoltage on an electrolytic cap can be a messy affair.

 

 

Hmm - I live and learn (which, naturally, is better than either not learning or not living...). I should have said that, "I've never had any problems either live or in the studio that were caused by phantom power running to either microphones or DI's." I may just have been lucky.

[agedhorse]

Or had a Mackie sub-mixer feeding a channel with phantom present. Known defect.

[bigmike216]

I love my JDI.