Monitor mix in long skinny bar

[flip333]

Hi,

 

We had a pretty good gig last Saturday night. Our new drummer has a friend with some sound reinforcement training who helped for free beer. He did not appear to ever get intoxicated and seemed to pay attention to our show all night. Good FOH sound.

 

Our monitor mix was difficult from the beginning.

 

A&H MixWiz aux 1 and 2 >> 31-band EQ each mix >> 2 x 250W power amp >> to 2 Yamaha club IV's monitors and two monitors for drummer.

 

Skinny bar about 20 feet across and 60 foot long.

 

Problems:

 

1) singer is a radio DJ and likes "big booming radio voice"

2) singer wants effects in monitor to hear "exactly what the audience hears"

3) Usual guitar wars. Temptation to turn up guitar.

4) loud drums behind us... could not get on sides of drummer to reduce drums into monitors.

 

My first thought is to not allow any effects into monitors anymore, or even try for special favorite tones like the radio voice. I just want something we can hear.

 

Maybe our drummer needs to lighten up in smaller bars like this.

 

Also, I got rushed as usual...

 

Is there anything else to consider?

 

Thanks.

[where02190]

Turn down.

IEM's for those who want radio or efx heavy mixes.

Turn down.

[Steve_B]

This and similar type questions come up a lot and everyone seems to be looking for a technical solution to a non technical problem. If you play in a band /group you (all members) need to start thinking like one. If one band member wants some setting that the rest of the band does not, then they out vote him/her or at least decide on some compromise that everyone can live with.

 

If you are playing gigs where the drummer requires monitor levels that kill the rest of you then either stop playing those gigs, get the drummer to use less monitor level or sack the drummer. Chances are though that if you are doing small gigs like the one you mentioned, ditching them for theatre or stadium gigs is not an option.

 

Steve.

[ShizzelDizzel]

We had all the exact problems you describe. Every last detail, except for the fact we had this problem in rehearsal and at clubs.

 

I'll second what "Where" said here. Turn down / have the drumer play lighter or use lighter sticks. I started a thread on here awhile ago regarding my female lead having problems hearing herself. After a few rehearsals, I finally convinced everyone to turn down and use their amps as their monitors and let the PA to do the rest. Every once in awhile the guys like to turn up, and the female lead will start complaining again. In your case, the narrow space may be an additional challenge but I think the place to start is stage volume.

 

As far as your lead singers wants....well we've kept the low end and effects out of our lead singers monitors for a few weeks now and I've explained to her the problem with low end and effects in the monitor mix. Although she uses the same reasoning "wants to hear what the audience hears", I tell her to let the soundguy handle that. There isn't a whole lot she can do to control what the people hear while she is on stage anyway.

[abzurd]

It's definitely a compromise with players as well as the venue. I absolutely LOVE playing large stages. Aside from the "room to roam" aspect, it just sounds SO much better on stage. There is room to have your own little environment that you have control over with less noise from your neighbors.

 

In our smallest venue the stage sound is horrible. We do all we can (2 players with IEM's, e-drums, 60w 12" guitar amp tilted back and placed in front of the guitar player like wedge, only 2 wedges on stage) but it's still no good. BUT - the FOH is a different story. We are far and away the best sounding band in this venue.

 

Everyone has to realize that, although pristine stage sound sure energizes the group, when you're hired to play out it's not really about what you want. It's about what's best for the performance. This means it's quite likely that no one person is going to have 100% perfect mix. The priority is that your mix be enough of a reference to allow you to hear the notes and play them in time.

[tlbonehead]

Originally posted by flip333 Hi, We had a pretty good gig last Saturday night. Our new drummer has a friend with some sound reinforcement training who helped for free beer. He did not appear to ever get intoxicated and seemed to pay attention to our show all night. Good FOH sound. Our monitor mix was difficult from the beginning. A&H MixWiz aux 1 and 2 >> 31-band EQ each mix >> 2 x 250W power amp >> to 2 Yamaha club IV's monitors and two monitors for drummer. Skinny bar about 20 feet across and 60 foot long. Problems: 1) singer is a radio DJ and likes "big booming radio voice" 2) singer wants effects in monitor to hear "exactly what the audience hears" 3) Usual guitar wars. Temptation to turn up guitar. 4) loud drums behind us... could not get on sides of drummer to reduce drums into monitors. My first thought is to not allow any effects into monitors anymore, or even try for special favorite tones like the radio voice. I just want something we can hear. Maybe our drummer needs to lighten up in smaller bars like this. Also, I got rushed as usual... Is there anything else to consider? Thanks.

Looks like you answered your own questions. Turn down is indeed a great answer. And why in the world would you run vocal effects in the monitors?

[flip333]

Still learning! Some singers want effects in the monitor because it is inspiring to hear those effects. We have been using effects at practice.

 

Do you think it is better to use no effects at practice?

 

Thanks

[madjack]

 

Originally posted by flip333 Still learning! Some singers want effects in the monitor because it is inspiring to hear those effects. We have been using effects at practice. Do you think it is better to use no effects at practice? Thanks

 

 

Absolutely.

Sure, it's nice to hear the effects on your voice; gives it a big sound.

However, the purpose of practice is to get used to singing on-key, and on-time. Effects on the vocals interfere with this purpose and make it much likelier that the singers will only get close instead of dead-on.

[flip333]

We have taken a break over the holidays.

 

I posted over at the backstage to hear other stories....

 

At practice last Sunday, I put no effects in the monitors and ran them flat with the 4K pulled down because that is what feeds back. Also, I pulled down everything below 125 for max headroom.

 

Our singer was very disappointed. I felt like the bad guy when I asserted myself to make these changes.

 

He has a need for a certain tone we cannot always have.

 

I said that we should get used to a dry monitor because we all want to hear ourselves in the mix.

 

Phew, I don't want to rock the boat. Its nice to have a show again since my last band.

 

Sorry for the soap opera.... so please be honest and blunt if needed

 

Its good to hear how others would handle this.

[Guest Anonymous]

Originally posted by flip333 We have taken a break over the holidays. I posted over at the backstage to hear other stories.... At practice last Sunday, I put no effects in the monitors and ran them flat with the 4K pulled down because that is what feeds back. Also, I pulled down everything below 125 for max headroom. Our singer was very disappointed. I felt like the bad guy when I asserted myself to make these changes. He has a need for a certain tone we cannot always have. I said that we should get used to a dry monitor because we all want to hear ourselves in the mix. Phew, I don't want to rock the boat. Its nice to have a show again since my last band. Sorry for the soap opera.... so please be honest and blunt if needed Its good to hear how others would handle this.

Saturday night I supplied the gear and ran sound for a real good, successful band, which was Junkyard Jane. Here's their website:

 

http://www.junkyardjane.com/

 

At soundchecks, right after the first song I walked up to the stage. The leader of the band, Billy, asked me how it sounded. I said "fine, except the bass is too loud... basically the bass is out of the mix and to mix over the bass is too loud for the venue/promoter's wishes". Billy turned to the bass player and said "turn it down". The bass player turned it down. The drummer then asked me if he was too loud... he wasn't and I told him so. They played another tune, the bass player made a gesture of "how's it now?" I gestured "a-ok". End of story.

 

Well, not quite the end of the story. During the second or third soundcheck song, Billy, the leader, frontman, and lead guitarist walked the venue while playing... and then went to the stage and positioned his Fender Deluxe (similar to a Twin) so it blew more across the stage rather than straight out. Billy later mentioned that his amp is pretty beamy and didn't want to blast-out anyone in the crowd.

 

Their sound and mix was as good as it gets (basically great to my ears).

 

End of story.

[tremendo]

 

Originally posted by tlbonehead why in the world would you run vocal effects in the monitors?

 

I think it works in our case. I sing and run the sound, but use IEM's. I keep the effects a little lower in my monitors than FOH, and it allows me to work a little with the effects and make sure they sound right and patches are changing correctly. Although, by adding effects to the monitor mix, it's more forgiving so you need to be careful to keep your voice right on key.

[bigmike216]

 

Originally posted by Audiopile Saturday night I supplied the gear and ran sound for a real good, successful band, which was Junkyard Jane. Here's their website: http://www.junkyardjane.com/ At soundchecks, right after the first song I walked up to the stage. The leader of the band, Billy, asked me how it sounded. I said "fine, except the bass is too loud... basically the bass is out of the mix and to mix over the bass is too loud for the venue/promoter's wishes". Billy turned to the bass player and said "turn it down". The bass player turned it down. The drummer then asked me if he was too loud... he wasn't and I told him so. They played another tune, the bass player made a gesture of "how's it now?" I gestured "a-ok". End of story. Well, not quite the end of the story. During the second or third soundcheck song, Billy, the leader, frontman, and lead guitarist walked the venue while playing... and then went to the stage and positioned his Fender Deluxe (similar to a Twin) so it blew more across the stage rather than straight out. Billy later mentioned that his amp is pretty beamy and didn't want to blast-out anyone in the crowd. Their sound and mix was as good as it gets (basically great to my ears). End of story.

 

 

Sounds like a dream gig!!