CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted April 14, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted April 14, 2007 In a world where excellence is now expected..even at rock bottom cost (trash service, for example)...Few people spread the good news about products that work, or services that do a great job at low cost (trash service, for example). On the other hand, because excellence is expected...an unsatisfied customer WILL tell everyone within earshot (the world wide web makes this even more effective..eyeshot, I guess) and may even launch a personal smear campaign against the offending company (trash service for example). I have experienced this first hand, having owned my own trash service for over 10 years. It doesn't matter if "word of mouth is the best advertizing" used to be true or not...this is the year 2007, and I guarantee you it is no lnger the best advertising to the degree it is the worst advertising. "What have you done for me lately" is also not as important as it used to be, since competitive pricing by everyone often levels the field enough for many people to not worry about price once the grudge is in place. Grudges lasting 10 years or more are frequently referenced in all kinds of internet forums regarding products from dog foods to motorcycles...people "swearing off" buying a product from a certain manufacturer is a fact of life in every area of consumer buying. Current, consumer reports are the only way to compile "research" on a product, and the internet often skews the true story in one direction...the negative. I always suggest finding real people to talk to. I know people who have sworn off buying Peavey, JBL, Altec-Lansing (is this still a company?), radio shack, of course...it runs the gamut. You get what you pay for is even an inaccurate indicator of quality, as new companies enter markets vying for market share (trash service comes to mind again) . In the end..."wisdom" is often far more silent than foolishness. Experience is the best teacher...I'll buy that one, if the experience actually reflects current product lines. All to often it doesnt, and all too often, it isn't interested in teaching you...unless it's your own experience.God bless!-Ron I have to disagree on a couple of points, Ron. While it is definitely true that a satisfied customer may tell a few people about their good experience while an unhappy one will tell about 20, people do not expect excellent service...if anything, service has slipped so badly in the past 5 years or so that people routinely expect the worst. They don't take it well, but they still take it. I also disagree about word-of-mouth...this forum is a perfect example of folks getting together to chat about what they like and don't like. As long as folks have mouths and ears, and opinions, word of mouth will still float or sink businesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members congaron Posted April 14, 2007 Members Share Posted April 14, 2007 My experience on those two issues remains what I wrote. It is actual experience. It is my experience. People expect, and demand excellent service, or they will spread the word like wildfire. Or, perhaps Missouri is an exception, but this is my actual experience. As for the forum, it's impossible to tell how many people don't know this forum exists...happy customers or otherwise. It's also impossible to say how many simply stay out of it altogether to avoid ridicule by the resident vocal experts. This is highly likely, given some of the threads...and is not unique within any field of interest having its own forum. I stand by my experience, although you disagree. It doesn't reduce my interest in your opinion..it is just my personal experience in a customer service field where the competition is as fierce as any. This is just another example of why everyone needs to find real people to question if at all possible....look, listen, decide, accept your consequences. Ther wallet is now speaking as loudly as the happy customer nowadays, but never as loud as the unhappy one. God bless! -Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted April 14, 2007 Members Share Posted April 14, 2007 My experience with the reliability of their product leaving one of my customers in a bad way after the THIRD mixer failure and terrible customer service (I had to eat one of them myself after an unsuccessful warranty attempt because they (Behringer USA) would not return phone calls and there were no viable service centers at that time, which caused me to drop Behringer as a line we carried.) causes me to sell and install other brands. Behringer is NOT the only brand with a long standing history of challanges though, and after that experience I prefer to support manfacturers that provide the customer with a better overall experience. This was a few years back and maybe their customer service has improved, but it was (from experience) for a while pretty darn poor. It goes to show how much price plays into the consumer demand equation though... if something is perceived as cheap, a little "customer abuse" is a-ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members congaron Posted April 14, 2007 Members Share Posted April 14, 2007 Exactly. Of course, I go back to the trash business for a second...there may be regional differences on where the service/price balnce point is. For example, Here in Missouri, a few years ago, the average price for residential service was $11 per month. A couiple from Chicago moved into one of my contract neighborhoods and came to the road to thank me for how cheap it was, and wondering how it was even possible to give "such great service" for that amount. A local resident born here, living right next door, quit service immediately when they violated a Missouri department of natural resources restriction and I couldn't take an item poorly hidden in their normal pickup (a car battery). Price matters...the past matters...attitude matters... it all matters...buyer beware. God bless! -Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DJ Swydez Posted April 14, 2007 Members Share Posted April 14, 2007 I have to disagree on a couple of points, Ron. While it is definitely true that a satisfied customer may tell a few people about their good experience while an unhappy one will tell about 20, people do not expect excellent service...if anything, service has slipped so badly in the past 5 years or so that people routinely expect the worst. They don't take it well, but they still take it. I also disagree about word-of-mouth...this forum is a perfect example of folks getting together to chat about what they like and don't like. As long as folks have mouths and ears, and opinions, word of mouth will still float or sink businesses.I have to admit that I agree with you here... I can't tell you how many times I have showed up to gigs where the people there just look at me like "You are our DJ? What kind of experience and equipment could you possibly have?" But when my rig is set up, with the music clear, cranked, and crisp accompanied by several bright flashing lights, my customers are often pleasantly surprised at our service and have admitted that we do a better job at parties than other DJs they have had experience with, because we actually listen to the crowd and work them too... I'm also pretty sure that people are not just bull {censored}ting us when they tell us this because we have scored pretty nice tips before, some as large as an additional bejamin or two, which is a pretty awesome tip for DJs... Also, those happy customers have also spread the word that we our good and we have scored additional business from those people they told, so word-of-mouth advertising does help a lot... we have never really had any truly "displeased" or "unhappy" customers, so I can't speak to the negative effects of word-of-mouth advertising... but I must agree that people often expect the worst out of people, but are often pleasantly surprised when they get great service...Anyway, this is my experience so far... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members congaron Posted April 14, 2007 Members Share Posted April 14, 2007 In my case, I used behringer equipment for a few years because it was all I could afford..or do without. I didn't even have the internet, just friends who also used it for more years before Me. They never said a word, until they saw I was using the same stuff. I had no reason to change to other brands, they didn't either, and none of us have. Now I have the internet, eventually found this site, and suddenly I find I'm pretty in the dark about how unhappy behringer makes some people..do the extent that they will begin new threads just to bash the equipment and company. Yes, I am learning something. No, it doesn't line up with my experience. I have also found MANY positive experiences on the web with a wide variety of behringer equipment...it's all in who you ask, and what they expect I guess. I gig with mine, lots of people do. Lost of people don't, but the ones who do in my area always sound good to my ears, and they get the repeat gigs, too...just like we do. However you get there...best of luck with whatever you choose to use...our peavey amp bit the dust, BTW (it was donated to us for our ministry)...we never got past the practice studio with it...still use it some on the working channel. To each their own. I still think bad word of mouth will kill more repeat business than good word of mouth will generate...and yet Behringer continues. In our business we track the effectiveness of all the advertizing by asking new customers where they got our name..word of mouth sits squarely at the bottom..Yellow pages firmly at the top. With growth of 25-35 % annually during the first 5 years of our business, this held true...so we really stopped tracking it as actively, but it seems about the same. We had fewer than 1% service cancellations for complaints. We definitely heard repercussions from those few. Still, new starts said nothing about word of mouth from the very happy customers right next door who happily paid their bill and lived on. WHo's making the most noise in the customer service lane? Not the happy customer...what about on this very forum? Good reports are few and far between..because they are just expected. Now I've accidentally added my bad Peavey report...oops. Being my only experience with peavey, What do I do now? Maybe I'll get that $249 peavey subwoofer. Or maybe I'll try the Nady for $139 and put a new eminence driver in it if it blows up (which it probably won't). I have good experience with eminence raw speakers. I'm a lousy cabinet builder. God bless! -Ron God bless! -Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted April 15, 2007 Members Share Posted April 15, 2007 To put it in perspective, say if there is a 10% failure rate (for any brand) inside the warranty period, that means there are 90% satisfied customers for the short term anyway. Shorter warranty periods (like 1 year) really skew the % in favor of the poorer manufacturers too. A 10% failure rate is completely unacceptable to me for my applications and my clients. I shoot for a 1-2% experience (within a 3 year warranty period) which is not all that difficult to achieve if you look at the better quality manufacturers. 5% failure within 10 years is pretty typical of the pro stuff. It's all about the application. How would you feel about a 0.01% failure rate within the 30 year lifetime of a product? Seems almost impossible to achieve right? Look at the commercial aviation industry... with roughly 1,000,000 craft flying about over 30 years, that would be 100 aircraft falling out of the sky over 30 years or 3 planes per year (not counting shootdowns and that kind of thing, just actual failures) which is pretty damn impressive but achievable. That's 0.01% within the LIFETIME of the craft, or 0.00033% that any one craft will fail over it's individual lifetime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al Poulin Posted April 15, 2007 Members Share Posted April 15, 2007 If both Behringer and Yamaha each designed an airplane and you were obligated to take your family on the first test flight (by a group of terrorists for example) on one of the two planes.... Which plane would you choose ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted April 15, 2007 Members Share Posted April 15, 2007 Or how important is getting the "cheapest" product when it comes to items like medicines, health care, air flight etc. Would you really go for low bid if you needed surgery for example? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gruvjack Posted April 15, 2007 Members Share Posted April 15, 2007 Or how important is getting the "cheapest" product when it comes to items like medicines, health care, air flight etc. Would you really go for low bid if you needed surgery for example? My dad's friend did and paid the ultimate price. V. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted April 15, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted April 15, 2007 Ron, Proof of low customer expectations? Behringer. Wal-Mart. Target. Your thoughts of buying a Nady sub and figuring you'll replace the driver if it blows. Folks will gladly pay the least amount, and assume the item will fail before they're done needing it. That's low expecation. I buy gear with the expectation that it will last as long as I'll need it, with minimal chance of failure, and with reasonable maintenance (such as reconing a driver that's been driven hard for years, or replacing the cooling fan in a power amp after 5 years. If there's a low-cost substitute, it needs to meet this same expectation. There's also the need for good to great performance. Perhaps the Behringer and Nady speakers sound good to you, but they sound awful to me, and plenty of other folks. I've tried in vain to get a Behringer compressor to do anything that resembled compression. On the other hand, their midi footpedal is the only one of its kind, and works well. Their digital EQ's are fine too. I won't buy one, because I won't reward Uli for his {censored}ty business practices. But as I've said in the past, I won't begrudge anyone who doesn't feel the same way about it. I'm here to inform, not lobby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cc999 Posted April 15, 2007 Members Share Posted April 15, 2007 Well I purchased the exact Powered Behringer speaker. I currently have the Yamaha MSR 400 powered speakers as the main PA speakers and was using the Behringer as a stage monitor. This is what I found: The Yamaha BLOWS away the Berhinger in quality and sound. There is absolutly no comparison period. The Behringer lasted about 2 hours and started crackling and stopped working. It is a piece of {censored}. I returned it and got a JBL Eon and I am completely happy with the setup. I would be very hesitant to purchase a Behringer and expect it to perform. It is very cheaply made. The knobs stick out from the back and can snap off easily. It sits as a monitor at a bad angle for the input cord. All around bad design and cheap amplifier. You get what you pay for. Buyer beware and this is no BS as I gave them the test runs myself. Charlie C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Not Serial Posted April 15, 2007 Members Share Posted April 15, 2007 i am and have been 100% behringer-free for quite a long time now. in the past i have owned 3 mr. B compressors, which worked ok but nothing to write home about. i gave them away after replacing them with actual equipment and they do still work today installed in a church a few miles from me (i know the tech there). they love them, whatever floats their boat i guess. when i started my teaching job 2 years ago they had a lot of mr. B stuff. i have gotten rid of almost all of it except for 2 DI boxes - and i am working on those. a funny story is how i had these two DI boxes sitting out with a third box - an omnifex DI on a stage - someone stole the omnifex and left the two behringers. even theives do not want behringer. i replaced the schools eurodesk with a gl2200 and even a deaf mule can hear the difference, as well as the fact that channels do not crap out constantly. the fact that the pots on the gl2200 dont scratch and cut in/out is just an added bonus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GZsound Posted April 15, 2007 Members Share Posted April 15, 2007 The bottom line attitude here appears to be that there is no place in the music world for inexpensive equipment. I remember all the same comments about Peavey gear back in the 70's. It was inexpensive, fairly crude and yet it worked. A whole generation of musicians grew up using Peavey, Sunn, even Shure Vocalmaster gear because they could not afford anything else. Behringer seems to be filling that need now. And as to getting something fixed... One reason I have a tendency to buy new gear under warranty is because taking a piece of equipment to any of our local repair shops is like getting a couple of root canal surgeries done and I avoid it like the plague. So when someone is trying to put together a system on a budget that Behringer would fit, we need to tell them they need to spend more money and buy another brand...right? I prefer to advise them that buying the least expensive gear means they are getting what they pay for and there may be reliability problems down the road.. Then give them options and let them decide. If I let politics of a corporation dictate my buying practices, I wouldn't buy anything made by any big corporations..period. I often wonder what equipment most of the "professionals" on these forums started out with.. It sure seems they never had to start on a tiny budget using whatever they could scrape together. My first PA was a 100 watt Bogen head and two University horns (in 1964). Behringer fills a need at a reasonable price. So does Nady, Kustom, Samson, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Not Serial Posted April 15, 2007 Members Share Posted April 15, 2007 i dont know if i would equate peavey with behringer in any way shape or form. i have found that peavey equipment is what it claims to be and lasts an incredible amount of time even with heavy use. my monitor eqs are all peavey 31bands, are probably 12-15 years old and work flawlessly. i find these particular eqs far more useful than the dbx equivelants (which i also have). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mogwix Posted April 15, 2007 Members Share Posted April 15, 2007 I've been in pro sound for just under 2 years now, so I'm far away from "experienced" in the field and I'm learning new things every day. I'll just chime in my experience with behringer, since I'm in the "can't afford the good stuff" range. Two years ago me and a friend were talking about PA systems, since I was in the market for one and he was as well. I was talking about the system I had in mind, a Peavey system, and his was a Behringer. He ranted and raved about the price point and how good their stuff is. I've always been a "spend the money the first time" kind of guy so I was definitely skeptical. Anyhow, I went with the Peavey PA (a PV2600 power amp driving a pair of PV215 boxes, and a 24-ch peavey mixer) and he went with his Behringer PA (EP2500 amp into a pair of 115 tops, don't know what they were, and a 24-ch eurodesk). He saved maybe a thousand dollars over my PA and would boast about it every day. Two years later my PA is still going strong, and I push it to DDT every time. Note here that the PV2600 amp puts out 900w per side at 4 ohms. The speakers, rated at 4 ohms, handle a rated 700w program. I run this system to it's limits every night and it doesn't even flinch. I got the amp on the advice of a store worker so I assumed it would be the right match, but in retrospect it's a bit over-powered for the application but hell, I haven't blown anything. The peavey mixer is doing well but a channel died (singer grabbed the pre-gain knob, turned it to ten, then screamed into the mic... because he "wanted to see the red light go on"). I haven't bothered to get it repaired, since I intend to upgrade the mixer to an A&H. Not because the peavey mixer is bad, it's really simple and gives you a lot of channels without a lot of other stuff which is exactly what I wanted at the time. That PV2600 power amp went about a year without a rack case and has been dropped onto concrete numerous times (including the VERY first day we got it). Aside from a dented rack rail and some chipped paint, the amp still performs flawlessly. This PA has taught me a lot. Now, my friend's rig. Two months after buying the system, at his band practice while setting it up, he was saying "test... test..." into the mic while bringing up the levels, and once it became audible there was a loud POP, followed by an extremely loud hissing and crackling. He jumped on the power switch but it was too late. The amp self-destructed and took the speakers with it. He took the amp and speakers (still under warranty thankfully) to the place he bought it from, and after two months of calling the store, calling behringer, calling the store again, and calling behringer again, he finally got a new amp and speakers. I go to watch his band and see what he's up to at a small bar gig, where they've got a vocals-only PA, and while the vocals were loud, I couldn't understand what the hell the singer was saying. It was muddy and had a really harsh upper-midrange resonance that hurt the ears. I left shortly after my arrival. Four months after that the power amp did the same thing again, it self destructed and took the speakers with it. After that he took the speakers and amp back to the store and just told them to keep the replacements. They gave him a little bit of store-credit for the new behringer stuff, but nowhere near what he paid. He now uses a pair of Yorkie E15's off of an A&H powered mixer that he got at an amazing price used from a local sound company. He works in the video production division of a media company that houses the live-sound department, so he gets deals on a bunch of crap. That PA has been rockin' hard ever since. I don't know what happened to that behringer desk, it's a mystery to me. I never used it so I can't say anything about it. Note that despite my initial statement, this isn't exactly "my" experience so I'm not really saying anything explicitly regarding the quality of behringer products. I'll talk about that when I've actually tried behringer stuff myself, which probably won't ever happen since nowadays I can actually afford decent stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted April 15, 2007 Members Share Posted April 15, 2007 Mogwix, have you considered taking better care of your equipment? Boasting about dropping your amp on concrete numerous times isn't a good thing IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mogwix Posted April 15, 2007 Members Share Posted April 15, 2007 Boasting about dropping your amp on concrete numerous times isn't a good thing IMO. Yeah really. I at least try to take care of my stuff but let's just say I don't let my singer carry stuff any more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al Poulin Posted April 15, 2007 Members Share Posted April 15, 2007 Yeah really. I at least try to take care of my stuff but let's just say I don't let my singer carry stuff any more... It always makes me laugh when, after a wedding, some drunk guys - or sometimes people I know (with good intentions of course) offer to help me bring my equipment to my van... No thanks, that's OK, I'm used to it. Thanks anyway...(almost holding my breath hoping they just go away and don't touch my stuff) Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Scodiddly Posted April 15, 2007 Members Share Posted April 15, 2007 It always makes me laugh when, after a wedding, some drunk guys - or sometimes people I know (with good intentions of course) offer to help me bring my equipment to my van... No thanks, that's OK, I'm used to it. Thanks anyway...(almost holding my breath hoping they just go away and don't touch my stuff) Al Never let drunk people help you load out. Too many bad things could happen - from somebody getting injured, to road cases or speakers running into and damaging parked cars. Not worth the risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cc999 Posted April 15, 2007 Members Share Posted April 15, 2007 To the guy who actually said Peavey and Berhinger in the same sentence dosen't know what he is talking about. I own a Peavey Classic 30 Combo and a Peavey Classic 30 Head with the Classic 2 x 12 Cab. These amps are rock solid and have been for years. Peavey's reputation is built on reliability. And they are NOT cheap so the bottom line is Peavey is heads and shoulders above any Berhinger product period. Not even close. Charlie C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cosmic.synth Posted June 17, 2007 Members Share Posted June 17, 2007 I took the plunge and bought 6 Behringer B215As for my brother's upcoming wedding. We will be jamming during the reception and I will use two for the FOH speakers and the other four for monitoring each musician. I believe these active speakers are rated at 250 to 300 watts RMS. Once I get them in and try them at the wedding, I will write a full report. I received an excellent deal on a price match at GC...so they ended up being $200 each. I can't believe these are actives at that price! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mrspeed Posted June 18, 2007 Members Share Posted June 18, 2007 Wow. $200 is a deal. What source did you use to get the price match ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members suttree Posted June 19, 2007 Members Share Posted June 19, 2007 i sold behringer for almost 10 years. i never felt bad about it, because i wouldn't make any false claims about the stuff. the bottom line is that behringer makes some things that are terrible, but they make mostly stuff that is ok, and occasinally they make something that is surprisingly good. their small format mixers are generally good enough to do small jobs, i wouldn't ever take one of their large format mixers out. the compressors don't completely suck, the eq's do completely suck, the reverbs are generally "less is more", i don't much like the speakers, powered or otherwise, the x-over is marginal, but better than nothing. their ECM8000 is a neat acoustic guitar recording mic, their cable tester is the most balls-out total ripoff of a competing product i've ever seen (the swizz army), even worse than back in the day, when they were losing a lawsuit a week to mackie, haha. i think, in summation, that you can do fine with some behringer stuff in your rack as you build your system, but i would honestly always look at it to be the weakest link, and i would replace it with quality gear as the budget permits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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