Members MrJoshua Posted July 2, 2007 Members Share Posted July 2, 2007 So, recently I was talking to the new sound guy at church, and he mentioned that as soon as he could get approval he was going to replace all of the church microphones. This consists of four wireless Shure Beta 87a microphones and four or five wired Beta 87a's. He wants to replace them all with SM-58's. Am I wrong, or is this crazy? He was talking about how he just doesn't think that the 87 is suited to the rooms (the main sanctuary, or the small room by the gym where our praise and worship group plays) and that a 58 would do better. I pointed out that the 58 was cardioid while the 87 was supercardioid, and with the monitors toward the edges (the sides, I mean) of the stage in both rooms the 87 should provide better gain before feedback. He gave me kind of a nasty look and walked off. Am I totally off-base on this? I have two Beta 87a mics myself and love them - they're my favorite vocal mic, but I'm by no means an expert. But it seems like if nothing else he should get one or two of the 58s and try them out before replacing everything. I don't have a 58 right now, but I brought some 57s with me the last time we played there and asked if he wanted to try them on the vocals, since he didn't like the 87s, and he just kind of gave me a blank stare. I know they aren't the same, but the 57 is similar to the 58 and has the same polar pattern, so I thought it would at least give an idea of what we could expect with a 58. Anyway, I'm tempted to just tell the music director at church that if he DOES get rid of the mics, I want them. I'd love to have those four wireless ones. I just thought I'd ask y'all if I'm way off base in thinking replacing 87s with 58s is a bad idea when the 87s have been working very well for years. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rbts Posted July 2, 2007 Members Share Posted July 2, 2007 I think he is probably crazy, but what do I know. If it does turn into a good opportunity to get some beta 87s let me know I would like to have two more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jbutler1982 Posted July 2, 2007 Members Share Posted July 2, 2007 "I just thought I'd ask y'all if I'm way off base in thinking replacing 87s with 58s is a bad idea when the 87s have been working very well for years. " I think if you replace "58" and "87" with any two products in any industry in existence, the answer is probably the same. If its working well for years, no, it isn't a good idea to change it. EDIT: On second thought, if he is going to sell the 87s and buy used 58s, and apply the significant monetary gain toward another weak point of the system, that could be a very good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gomer Pyle Posted July 2, 2007 Members Share Posted July 2, 2007 58 is a fine mike but he is wasting money thinking he will be be upgrading Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted July 2, 2007 Members Share Posted July 2, 2007 The only real problem with the 87 line is they tend to be a little bright. IF the room is bright, the PA is bright and the PA operator is a bit dull, this could exaggerate a problem. Generally (this is a rough generalization) when I am dealing w/ B-87's, i like to reduce some of the energy in the 5k-12k range. This will depend of course on the PA and the room but a little bit goes a long way. Maybe 3-4db of cut in the offending range. This is where a parametric inserted on the group can be a bigger help (IF you know what you are doing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rbts Posted July 2, 2007 Members Share Posted July 2, 2007 The only real problem with the 87 line is they tend to be a little bright. IF the room is bright, the PA is bright and the PA operator is a bit dull, this could exaggerate a problem. Generally (this is a rough generalization) when I am dealing w/ B-87's, i like to reduce some of the energy in the 5k-12k range. This will depend of course on the PA and the room but a little bit goes a long way. Maybe 3-4db of cut in the offending range. This is where a parametric inserted on the group can be a bigger help (IF you know what you are doing). I think, here, that you are saying, that it might be easier, if the B-87s are a tad bright in the room to maybe cut the "highs" just a little, rather than trading in the whole batch of them and buy a bunch of SM 58s? Myself, I think the new sound guy is trying to make a bit of a splash... which of course is his right... after all he is the new sound guy. (Much less showy to just go up to the board and turn a few knobs) (Although I guess swapping out the whole set of mics might indeed have the same effect.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bassred Posted July 2, 2007 Members Share Posted July 2, 2007 I don't know of any mic that doesn't work for a certain room.... seems like a sstem problem to me. 87's are great mics, like AH said, they can be bright, but it would certainly se wise to tune the system/channels a bit before replacing al the mics.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted July 2, 2007 Members Share Posted July 2, 2007 I wouldn't just change the mics out, but if I was looking to buy mics for vocal application, I would keep this all in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Scodiddly Posted July 2, 2007 Members Share Posted July 2, 2007 If all the mics are the same, no big deal to compensate. I certainly wouldn't start out a new job by insisting on spending a few hundred/thousand dollars on something that might not yield that big an improvement. That being said, the SM-58 is a very good generic mic. It's not ideal most people, but it's a great starting point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members preacherman672 Posted July 3, 2007 Members Share Posted July 3, 2007 I'd be wondering what the new "sound guy" had planned for the 87's. Maybe he planned on taking them off the church's hands for a "reasonable" price, since they were "not suited to the rooms". Les Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MrJoshua Posted July 3, 2007 Author Members Share Posted July 3, 2007 I'd be wondering what the new "sound guy" had planned for the 87's. Maybe he planned on taking them off the church's hands for a "reasonable" price, since they were "not suited to the rooms". Les I don't know, but I'm certainly going to offer to if he does replace them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mogwix Posted July 3, 2007 Members Share Posted July 3, 2007 Funny story, somewhat related to this. Playing a small show today and there was a sound crew with weak equipment. Not liking the Shure PG58 mics on the vocal stands I handed my singer my Audix OM7 to use during our set. Before we play the "sound man" flags us down and says "can you use one of the 58's?". I looked at him and said "I'd rather not... why would we do that?" to which he responds "I've got the vocals cranked but they're still way quiet. It's just that it's a low quality mic there..." and he walks away. Oh, I guess my mic worth three times the price of theirs is "low quality" because it's not as hot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 6Imzadi Posted July 3, 2007 Members Share Posted July 3, 2007 Oh, I guess my mic worth three times the price of theirs is "low quality" because it's not as hot. "hot"=quality, aparantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kevinnem Posted July 3, 2007 Members Share Posted July 3, 2007 So, recently I was talking to the new sound guy at church, and he mentioned that as soon as he could get approval he was going to replace all of the church microphones. This consists of four wireless Shure Beta 87a microphones and four or five wired Beta 87a's. He wants to replace them all with SM-58's. Am I wrong, or is this crazy? He was talking about how he just doesn't think that the 87 is suited to the rooms (the main sanctuary, or the small room by the gym where our praise and worship group plays) and that a 58 would do better. I pointed out that the 58 was cardioid while the 87 was supercardioid, and with the monitors toward the edges (the sides, I mean) of the stage in both rooms the 87 should provide better gain before feedback. He gave me kind of a nasty look and walked off. Am I totally off-base on this? I have two Beta 87a mics myself and love them - they're my favorite vocal mic, but I'm by no means an expert. But it seems like if nothing else he should get one or two of the 58s and try them out before replacing everything. I don't have a 58 right now, but I brought some 57s with me the last time we played there and asked if he wanted to try them on the vocals, since he didn't like the 87s, and he just kind of gave me a blank stare. I know they aren't the same, but the 57 is similar to the 58 and has the same polar pattern, so I thought it would at least give an idea of what we could expect with a 58. Anyway, I'm tempted to just tell the music director at church that if he DOES get rid of the mics, I want them. I'd love to have those four wireless ones. I just thought I'd ask y'all if I'm way off base in thinking replacing 87s with 58s is a bad idea when the 87s have been working very well for years. Thanks! basically , yea, in my opinion the guy is wasting a ton of money to do a "side" grade at best, .. possiblely a down grade. But hey down lose any sleep over it, I have had tons of my designs in church's "down graded" due to political pressures and other BS, .. happens all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jbutler1982 Posted July 3, 2007 Members Share Posted July 3, 2007 I wouldn't be so quick to judge until you know more facts. He could probably get 4-5 times as much for the used 87 wireless systems than a simple used 58 (what, $60 on CL?). Thats several hundred to a thousand dollars, give or take. There could definately be a situation where, say, your mains suck, and that is 58s going out Yamha clubs instead of Kustoms, or your subs getting a fat load of power from each side of a new PLX monster instead of having an XLS bridged into less than their RMS rating. We don't know enough to have any idea. If he is pocking the cash, then fine, or if the 87s are going to sit in a drawer, then fine, but this could be very reasonble. To be honest, I could afford 87s, but I use 58s. Because 58s get the job done and 87s are too expensive for what they produce ( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MrJoshua Posted July 3, 2007 Author Members Share Posted July 3, 2007 That's fair enough, except that this is a medium-large church (the sanctuary seats around 1200 people) with a very nice sound system. Even the small side-room where our praise and worship band plays monthly (they have other stuff there too, of course) has a very decent system with a Mackie board, and I believe JBL speakers although I could be wrong about that. It sounded horrible the first time we practiced there, but after zeroing the console and doing a fresh mix instead of trying to tweak the mix left over from other bands (which was silly anyway but I wasn't running the board) it sounded just fine, and has for months. I guess my biggest problem with this isn't so much changing out the 87s for 58s, so much as it's my wondering, why fix it if it isn't broken? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators ThudMaker Posted July 3, 2007 Moderators Share Posted July 3, 2007 I guess my biggest problem with this isn't so much changing out the 87s for 58s, so much as it's my wondering, why fix it if it isn't broken?Generally, the way it works in a non-prof, such as a church, someone who is powerless in their day job, gets a few bucks worth of a budget and wants to blow some immediately to show everyone that they know what they are doing. Nothing is really occuring with your new "soundman" other than TPS (Tiny Peepee Syndrome). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kevinnem Posted July 3, 2007 Members Share Posted July 3, 2007 Generally, the way it works in a non-prof, such as a church, someone who is powerless in their day job, gets a few bucks worth of a budget and wants to blow some immediately to show everyone that they know what they are doing. Nothing is really occuring with your new "soundman" other than TPS (Tiny Peepee Syndrome). pretty much exactly what I have seen ... " I am sound guy, my job is to spend any money they give me, then get more." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jbutler1982 Posted July 3, 2007 Members Share Posted July 3, 2007 For a sound guy with a budget... isn't that exactly his job though? "Generally, the way it works in a non-prof, such as a church, someone who is powerless in their day job, gets a few bucks worth of a budget and wants to blow some immediately to show everyone that they know what they are doing. Nothing is really occuring with your new "soundman" other than TPS (Tiny Peepee Syndrome)." That is a pretty big jump to make from a guy wanting to use 58s instead of 87s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members congaron Posted July 3, 2007 Members Share Posted July 3, 2007 An unfair overgeneralization by thudmaker and kevinem. Church folks frequently have a good motive and a plan. Not even close to enough information to tell here. Selling off used pa equipment is no more unusual in a church than it is on this board. The funds are generally used to offset the new equipment purchase. "making a splash" would obviously be a wrong motive, but there is no way to safely assume this is what's going on. Spending more time at church instead of watching from the outside and jumping to conclusions would be a better way to get to know how church sound men think. Seeking opportunities to slam church goers whenever possible is every bit as disgusting as the assumed black heart motive being discussed here. Limited one-time exposaure to a church during their time of spending what they believe to be large amounts of cash, then helping another one, then another one doesn't prove anything at all about the inner motives of church goers in general. Many (not all) Little league baseball coaches are just as guilty of the off-duty power trip, as are the kid's parents. Only the parents get the bad press....and only the innocent kids suffer for the whole situation. God bless! -Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators ThudMaker Posted July 3, 2007 Moderators Share Posted July 3, 2007 An unfair overgeneralization by thudmaker and kevinem. Church folks frequently have a good motive and a plan. Not even close to enough information to tell here. Selling off used pa equipment is no more unusual in a church than it is on this board. The funds are generally used to offset the new equipment purchase. "making a splash" would obviously be a wrong motive, but there is no way to safely assume this is what's going on. Spending more time at church instead of watching from the outside and jumping to conclusions would be a better way to get to know how church sound men think. Seeking opportunities to slam church goers whenever possible is every bit as disgusting as the assumed black heart motive being discussed here. Limited one-time exposaure to a church during their time of spending what they believe to be large amounts of cash, then helping another one, then another one doesn't prove anything at all about the inner motives of church goers in general. Many (not all) Little league baseball coaches are just as guilty of the off-duty power trip, as are the kid's parents. Only the parents get the bad press....and only the innocent kids suffer for the whole situation. God bless! -Ron I'm not quite sure where you get off on people slamming church folk. I see none of that here, and I happen to be one of those church folk with a budget and the designated "expert" in my congregation. I've seen quite a few stupid things done in my years inside a church building simply because of egos. The OP asked why someone would swap out 87s for 58s. The scenario I provided is one possibility based upon my life experience inside of a house of worship. You might want to consider dismounting the high horse you're on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jbutler1982 Posted July 3, 2007 Members Share Posted July 3, 2007 Yeah, I was in no way trying to say that people were slamming church folk. I don't think that has anything to do with it. I was just saying that I'd rather hear more about this guy's whole plan than rush to condemn him already. Replacing the 87s with the 58s could be a good move given the right general context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members congaron Posted July 4, 2007 Members Share Posted July 4, 2007 I'm not quite sure where you get off on people slamming church folk. I see none of that here, and I happen to be one of those church folk with a budget and the designated "expert" in my congregation. I've seen quite a few stupid things done in my years inside a church building simply because of egos. The OP asked why someone would swap out 87s for 58s. The scenario I provided is one possibility based upon my life experience inside of a house of worship. You might want to consider dismounting the high horse you're on. You might consider that "A church building" isn't a church, and "A" church isn't every church. My opinion of your opinion remains what it was. You slammed, I saw it. "Generally, the way it works in a non-prof, such as a church, someone who is powerless in their day job, gets a few bucks worth of a budget and wants to blow some immediately to show everyone that they know what they are doing. Nothing is really occuring with your new "soundman" other than TPS (Tiny Peepee Syndrome)." No high horse on this end. Not enough information to determine motive in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kevinnem Posted July 5, 2007 Members Share Posted July 5, 2007 An unfair overgeneralization by thudmaker and kevinem. Church folks frequently have a good motive and a plan. Not even close to enough information to tell here. .. "making a splash" would obviously be a wrong motive, but there is no way to safely assume this is what's going on. Spending more time at church instead of watching from the outside and jumping to conclusions would be a better way to get to know how church sound men think. Seeking opportunities to slam church goers whenever possible is every bit as disgusting as the assumed black heart motive being discussed here. Limited one-time exposaure to a church during their time of spending what they believe to be large amounts of cash, then helping another one, then another one doesn't prove anything at all about the inner motives of church goers in general. God bless!-Ron A generalization certainly , but I don't believe its "over" nor unfair. Good motives, yes, everyone THINKS they are doing the right thing. We can get in to a very deep philosophical discussion here but as my dad always told me. The 2 most common things in the universe- hydrogen, and stupidity. I have done a lot of church work, much of it disappointing, so I am a bit jaded. Mostly it is the lack of respect for expert advice that gets me. I think some people are bing all to kind with the "maybe it makes sense in this unique situation" argument. We have to make assumptions, and I think that 9/10 times the beta87 is a better mic. Shure thinks so too, that is way it costs more. I would not count on this being that 1/10 time that, in fact, the sm58 is the better mic for the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nin4269 Posted July 5, 2007 Members Share Posted July 5, 2007 For all of us, would you please ask the sound guy why he's going it, then post his answer, verbatim, so that we can make further determinations of his sanity/professionalism. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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